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DeathReaper wrote:Jedi wins and here is why:

A jedi can move at great speed, so as soon as the shooting starts the jedi would no longer be in that location.

The marines carry grenades, the jedi pulls all those pins on those grenades and the entire tac squad goes boom.

So to recap, Lightning speed, Force powers to pull the pin on all the SM Krak grenades, and the SM's all die.

Since when have Marines been afraid of frag grenades? They're only useful in a charge you know...

He *did* say "krak grenade"... that's not fragmentation, that's vehicle-killing detonation.

Omegus wrote:Well, as long as we're discounting the Force Unleashed video games, where a single Jedi is basically a god (they are far more subdued in movies and novels), then the average Librarian would probably hold their own against a Jedi. Of course, psychic powers in the 40K universe have a much higher upper end of the spectrum, especially once you start delving into sorcery. If we look towards the descriptions of Alpha/Alpha+ levels of psyker or the description of the Thousand Sons when they cut loose towards the end of their novel, I would think they would curb-stomp even the Force Unleashed Jedi.

Yeah, for the most part, psykers in 40k don't reach the level of the best of Star Wars, with the Emperor being an obvious exception. Maybe Magnus too, who was capable of dispelling Ahriman's spell that affected the entire Thousand Sons Legion with only a gesture (Actually might have been less than that). But then Magnus is probably the strongest psyker in 40k short of the Emperor.

But Force Unleashed, while powerful, is not the best Star Wars has either.

Out of curiosity, what did the Thousand Sons do at the end of their novel?

Magnus never dispelled the Rubric, so I'm not sure what you mean.

Towards the end, they unleashed pretty cataclysmic levels of destruction, easily rivaling that of the most ridiculous displays of power from any Star Wars materials, including games, graphic novels, Darth Bane books, etc.

Anyway, in my opinion Jedi lose automatically because Lucas ruined Star Wars with the new trilogy. I mean, any series of films that makes Darth Vader into a pansy crybaby ruins the whole mythology. Star Wars is dead to me, and like Patton Oswald, the first thing I'd do with a time machine would be to go back to circa 1993, and murder George Lucas with a shovel.

Omegus wrote:Magnus never dispelled the Rubric, so I'm not sure what you mean.

Towards the end, they unleashed pretty cataclysmic levels of destruction, easily rivaling that of the most ridiculous displays of power from any Star Wars materials, including games, graphic novels, Darth Bane books, etc.

Anyway, in my opinion Jedi lose automatically because Lucas ruined Star Wars with the new trilogy. I mean, any series of films that makes Darth Vader into a pansy crybaby ruins the whole mythology. Star Wars is dead to me, and like Patton Oswald, the first thing I'd do with a time machine would be to go back to circa 1993, and murder George Lucas with a shovel.

Yuh huh.

"No sorcerous ward or physical defenses could keep the wild powers at bay. The storm of magic raged for an eternal night, which could have been days or centuries, until Magnus himself used his unearthly powers to end it."
- Chaos Marines codex, page 51

What kind of cataclysmic levels of destruction?

Psienesis wrote:Doesn't matter, really, since the cortosis weave makes it immune to a lightsabre (and, by extension, a power sword). The chainsword is just going to throw sparks off it and squeal.

Cortosis is no longer canon. Neither is beskar. Lucas decided he didn't like it with his Clone Wars cartoon, so that's that.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Void__Dragon wrote:Yuh huh.

"No sorcerous ward or physical defenses could keep the wild powers at bay. The storm of magic raged for an eternal night, which could have been days or centuries, until Magnus himself used his unearthly powers to end it."
- Chaos Marines codex, page 51

Fair enough, he stopped the accompanying conflagration, but his stopping it didn't do anything for the Thousand Sons enhanced/disintegrated by the main spell itself.

Omegus wrote:Fair enough, he stopped the accompanying conflagration, but his stopping it didn't do anything for the Thousand Sons enhanced/disintegrated by the main spell itself.

True enough.

How is A Thousand Sons by the way?

Well since plenty of Jedi died like punks at the end of attack of the clones from droids I'm sure it would be easy for a marine to just walk up to a Jedi while said Jedi is tryin to give a convincing speech about how fighting is not the answer and bust a bolt pistol shot in his gut

It's one of my favorite books of the Horus Heresy series. Really underlines the tragedy of the Thousand Sons' fall. Magnus may have deserved his fate, but his sons certainly did not. The book cemented Ahriman as my favorite character in all of 40K, and also forged in me an unyielding hatred and contempt for the Space Wolves.

Anyway, to answer your question about the level of cataclysm they unleashed, here's probably the most extreme example, edited for brevity:

Phael Toron rose out of the crater in blaze of lightning. Hissing blood streamed from his armour andwhipping arcs of power blazed at his fingertips. His armour shone with inner luminescence asthough it contained the fiery heart of a plasma reactor. With eyes saturated with aetheric energy,Phael Toron saw the hellish battlescape before him in all its visceral horror.

He took in the vista with a glance and his rage spilled out in atorrent of force. Those enemy warriors closest to him were hurled back, the armour peeled from their bodies and their flesh torn from their bones. The furred abominations that ran with Russ’ warriors exploded in bright smears, their inner light snuffed out in an instant with alien cries of rage. Phael Toron floated over the battlefield, his arms extended from his side as he swatted enemy warriors from his path with his thoughts.

A blizzard of explosive shells streamed from the cannons of three dreadnoughts, wolf-clad machines adorned like totemistic idols. Phael Toron unmade the first, disassembling it into its component parts with a gesture. He felt the anguish of the desolate scrap of flesh at its heart as it died, and took pleasure in its terror. In a fit of dark amusement, he turned the remaining two up on one another, letting their guns rip each other apart until nothing remained save torn fragments of smoking metal. A pair of Predator battle tanks opened fire on him. He lifted the vehicles from the ground andhurled them out to sea, laughing at the horrified faces of the Space Wolves. They fell back, gathering in frightened packs as they cowered in ruins of their own making.

Of course, shortly after, his Tutelary gained control over his body, and he exploded with the force of an atom bomb. But hey, it was a fun ride while it lasted.

Omegus wrote:It's one of my favorite books of the Horus Heresy series. Really underlines the tragedy of the Thousand Sons' fall. Magnus may have deserved his fate, but his sons certainly did not. The book cemented Ahriman as my favorite character in all of 40K, and also forged in me an unyielding hatred and contempt for the Space Wolves.

Anyway, to answer your question about the level of cataclysm they unleashed, here's probably the most extreme example, edited for brevity:

Phael Toron rose out of the crater in blaze of lightning. Hissing blood streamed from his armour andwhipping arcs of power blazed at his fingertips. His armour shone with inner luminescence asthough it contained the fiery heart of a plasma reactor. With eyes saturated with aetheric energy,Phael Toron saw the hellish battlescape before him in all its visceral horror.

He took in the vista with a glance and his rage spilled out in atorrent of force. Those enemy warriors closest to him were hurled back, the armour peeled from their bodies and their flesh torn from their bones. The furred abominations that ran with Russ’ warriors exploded in bright smears, their inner light snuffed out in an instant with alien cries of rage. Phael Toron floated over the battlefield, his arms extended from his side as he swatted enemy warriors from his path with his thoughts.

A blizzard of explosive shells streamed from the cannons of three dreadnoughts, wolf-clad machines adorned like totemistic idols. Phael Toron unmade the first, disassembling it into its component parts with a gesture. He felt the anguish of the desolate scrap of flesh at its heart as it died, and took pleasure in its terror. In a fit of dark amusement, he turned the remaining two up on one another, letting their guns rip each other apart until nothing remained save torn fragments of smoking metal. A pair of Predator battle tanks opened fire on him. He lifted the vehicles from the ground andhurled them out to sea, laughing at the horrified faces of the Space Wolves. They fell back, gathering in frightened packs as they cowered in ruins of their own making.

Of course, shortly after, his Tutelary gained control over his body, and he exploded with the force of an atom bomb. But hey, it was a fun ride while it lasted.

Huh, is that so? I have only read about Ahriman in the fluff he has in the Chaos Marines codex, but I liked what I read, he seemed pretty cool. Will try to read it eventually.

Disassembling the Dreadnought was the part I really liked lol. The part where he turns two Dreadnoughts against one another is pretty manly too, them being by nature two especially heroic and strong-willed Space Marines.

That being said, while certainly above the majority of Jedi and Sith, with it perhaps being on par or superior to Force Unleashed (I am under the assumption that the explosion you described was caused by his psychic power, right? If so, that would be more impressive than Galen's own little psychic suicide explosion), but it does not quite stack up to Force behemoths like Darth Nihilus, who can eat all the life on a planet with but word (And destroy much of the surface too), though Nihilus is like, top three in terms of power over the Force, along with Sidious and Luke. Who manipulates black holes telekinetically or some stupid crap like that. I hate EU sometimes...

But thanks for the info, have actually been curious about psyker abilities for a while.

He lost his grip on the flow of power from the Warp, until it overloaded and went kaboom. It wasn't all him, as he had the tutelary assisting him (and later devouring him).

As for Darth Nihilus, he had kind of moved beyond any semblance of mortality. At that point, we should be comparing "him" to daemon princes, who warp all reality around them to suit their f'ed up imagination. In the Eisenhorne novels, psykers do some outrageous things, especially the daemonhost. Luke didn't manipulate an actual black hole (that would mean he could re-arrange planets and suns without breaking a sweat, and getting to Sinkhole Station/The Maw wouldn't have been so difficult for him), but rather the micro-black hole-esque gravitational effects created by dovin basals. But yes, he has Mary Sue power-levels to put Draigo to shame.

Darth Sidious' most impressive power display that I'm aware of (beyond his prodigious powers of clairvoyance) was summoning a force storm that swallowed up some ships and being essentially immortal as long as there was a suitable Force-sensitive body to possess (both occurring in the really old Dark Empire comic books). He's also pretty terrible at holding down a job:






I would be tempted to add Darth Bane to the list of the most powerful Force-users, but the OP stated the contest was Astartes vs. Jedi. Sith have quite a few offensive Force techniques, but the Jedi not so much, since that leads to the Dark Side (again, except for Mary Sue Luke who can force choke people with impunity even in the movies).

Omegus wrote:He lost his grip on the flow of power from the Warp, until it overloaded and went kaboom. It wasn't all him, as he had the tutelary assisting him (and later devouring him).

As for Darth Nihilus, he had kind of moved beyond any semblance of mortality. At that point, we should be comparing "him" to daemon princes, who warp all reality around them to suit their f'ed up imagination. Darth Sidious' most impressive power display that I'm aware of (beyond his prodigious powers of clairvoyance) was summoning a force storm that swallowed up some ships and being essentially immortal as long as there was a suitable Force-sensitive body to possess (both occurring in the really old Dark Empire comic books). Luke didn't manipulate an actual black hole (that would mean he could re-arrange planets and suns without breaking a sweat, and getting to Sinkhole Station/The Maw wouldn't have been so difficult for him), but rather the micro-black hole-esque gravitational effects created by dovin basals. But yes, he has Mary Sue power-levels to put Draigo to shame.

I would be tempted to add Darth Bane to the list of the most powerful Force-users, but the OP stated the contest was Astartes vs. Jedi. Sith have quite a few offensive Force techniques, but the Jedi not so much, since that leads to the Dark Side (again, except for Mary Sue Luke who can force choke people with impunity even in the movies).

That is certainly true, Darth Nihilus is essentially the Star Wars equivelant of a Daemon Prince, maybe a Lord of Change too. He is so far above the vast majority of Sith and Jedi that it's ridiculous. Sidious lifted some starship as well, IIRC it was 2.2 kilometers long, he also drained the planet of Byss of its life. Though it was not as powerful as Darth Nihilus' drain, being gradual and over time. You may be right about Luke, admittedly much of what I heard of him is hearsay. Hey now, is Luke really quite Draigo level bad? Draigo made it to the Impossible City. He then destroyed it. What a douche. Also, burned down the Garden of Nurgle. However that works. Dude is a cartoon character.

Darth Bane's most impressive feat is the Mind Bomb right? Which IIRC involved a lot of prep, though I may be mistaken. But yeah, Jedi are not quite so offensively-oriented with a few exceptions, like Mace Windu, who has used Force Crush, and is someone that is dangerously close to the Dark Side at times, which is why he created Vapaad, and Luke as you said, who can use what is basically Force Lightning while being perfectly fething cool.

But yeah, back to the topic at hand, I don't really think the average Jedi can take the average Marine, personally.

When Darth Bane was 'roided-up from the orbalisks, he was throwing out lightning and telekinesis on a pretty massive scale. His apprentice was able to summon tendrils of energy that disintegrated everything they touched.

Byss was utterly enveloped by the Dark Side and the inhabitants' life force was drained very slowly through various Sith machines (which were as much sorcery as they were technology... think Skaven-tech without the comical misfiring). The Old Sith in general had quite a few monumental techniques, such as perfectly orchestrating an entire army/fleet through a meditation sphere. Many of these techniques were gathered by Bane and inherited by his successors (who added to the collection, particularly in the case of Sidious, who started collecting not only artifacts, but Force sensitives he didn't intend to apprentice, such as the Prophets and his agents [see Mara Jade]).

But yeah, you're right, nothing is as bad as Draigo. They really should have just let Ward bring back Guilliman instead.

On topic, I think I would agree with the second or third post in this thread. An average Jedi would have little problems with a single Astartes, but a squad concentrating fire on him would probably kill him after he took down 2 or 3 of their number. I'd even give the Jedi an edge against a Librarian (as long as the Jedi is one of the better Masters and the Librarian is strictly average/non-GK).

Riddick40k wrote:Well since plenty of Jedi died like punks at the end of attack of the clones from droids I'm sure it would be easy for a marine to just walk up to a Jedi while said Jedi is tryin to give a convincing speech about how fighting is not the answer and bust a bolt pistol shot in his gut

Jedi are not stupid (well, the strong ones anyways), they could use the force to sense that a SM is going to kill them and then
a) run
b) some sort of pre emptive strike

Riddick40k wrote:Well since plenty of Jedi died like punks at the end of attack of the clones from droids I'm sure it would be easy for a marine to just walk up to a Jedi while said Jedi is tryin to give a convincing speech about how fighting is not the answer and bust a bolt pistol shot in his gut

A good point.

Omegus wrote:Cortosis is no longer canon. Neither is beskar. Lucas decided he didn't like it with his Clone Wars cartoon.

God forbid if we make the already terrible cartoon worse.

/ragequit

A single jedi at the height of his/her power could wipe out a codex chapter. Nuff said.

/thread.

SSsilverskullSS wrote:

Riddick40k wrote:Well since plenty of Jedi died like punks at the end of attack of the clones from droids I'm sure it would be easy for a marine to just walk up to a Jedi while said Jedi is tryin to give a convincing speech about how fighting is not the answer and bust a bolt pistol shot in his gut

Jedi are not stupid (well, the strong ones anyways), they could use the force to sense that a SM is going to kill them and then
a) run
b) some sort of pre emptive strike

The reason the Jedi didn't sense the Clone backstabbing was because of the psychological indoctrination the clones were subjected too.

Only Yoda actually sensed the attack. Obi-wan survived because that particular clone was a lousy shot.


Space Marines undergo even more psycho-indoctrination then a Clone does so the Jedi would have a similer problem. this does assume first contact.

only an extremely powerful Jedi could Force Accelerate while pulling the pins on a squads worth of grenades. it takes alot of concentration to do this and the grenades might have a fail safe so they don't do exactly this when on a marines body.

DeadlySquirrel wrote:A single jedi at the height of his/her power could wipe out a codex chapter. Nuff said.

/thread.

/fanboy and/or /troll

DeadlySquirrel wrote:A single jedi at the height of his/her power could wipe out a codex chapter. Nuff said.

Yeah not now mate.A bunch of cloned soldiers basically wiped all the goodie two shoes jedi out.Those soldiers were no where near as tough as a space marine.

Ok, so there are a few things that should be clarified before we continue this debate.

Force powers:
force pull: force powers only work when the jedi know what to manipulate. For example, pulling the pin on the grenade if the Jedi can mentally "see" the pin and the grenade it would work, however if they don't know what to manipulate, pulling the pin won't work as they could quite potentially pull the grenade and the pin towards themselves. That probably wouldn't work.

Force push: unless we are talking about a master, most Jedi can't force push much more than a few hundred pounds. Something normally man-sized and just as slow. The average Jedi couldn't turn a rocket in mid flight, let alone a bolter shell flying at machine gun speeds (think somewhere around 2300-3000 foot per second).

Force mobility: force speed and force jump are equally impressive but have distinct drawbacks: force mobility can over stress the jedi's body leaving him weak and worn out. If the stress on the body isn't bad enough, the power takes extreme focus and concentration, normally preventing the user from doing everything else.

Force lightning: this is a sith power but for the sake of argument we,ll discuss it. Force lightning normally targets one person and requires the most intense concentration to use otherwise it may backfire and consume the user (like what happened to sidious when mace was able to weaken him). Additionally, the user must have two organic hands that aren't injured, and normally requires a few seconds to prepare before lightning starts flying around (hence the build up between doku and yoda).

Force choke: very hard and difficult to use, and requires an insane amount of concentration. Even vader himself could barely manage to choke someone and talk at the same time.

Mind control: mind control only works on the weak minded. Sure, it would probably work on guardsmen, but space marines are trained and psychologically indoctrinated to withstand temptation of the warp and the daemon, they would more than likely be able to handle a mind trick.

Any other force power: all force powers are draining to the Jedi and will wear them out during a fight. If force powers were that awesome, Jedi would never have a need for light sabers. There are limitations to the skills of the average Jedi.

Point is this: Jedi are VASTLY overrated and mandalorians, the probably closest match to a space marine, had been killing Jedi and sith for centuries until more conventional warfare took over when the old republic declared war on the mandalorians and weight of numbers took them out. Now, there are Jedi of renown, Jason, anakain, and Luke, obi wan, mace, yoda, so on and so forth, but there are also chapter masters and psykers of renown as well.

I agree with the assessment that a ten man squad of marines could handle you average Jedi, as clone troopers just clearly mowed down Jedi masters quite easily (of course you say, the clone troopers have the element of surprise, but that is just a better example of how fragile Jedi actually can be)

Sure they could be quick and those light sabers are deadly, but they need to close, and while plasma guns probably wont do much, explosive shells from blotters would chew them up pretty seriously, as the jedi principlar line of defense is deflection, which is a great idea so long as the shells don't explode on impact or the physical bolt doesn't splinter into shrapnel.

One average Jedi to a tactical squad is probably pretty accurate.

An adept Jedi/Sith win hands down.

They have superior reflexes, dexterity and strength over SM without all the suped up bodies and extra organs. A truly powerful Jedi doesn't even have to block bolter fire, it wouldn't even come in his/her direction. A jedi doesn't need armour because he's too busy moving quicker than the marines advanced ocular cells can follow.

Fanboy Jedi's, that's those not in the films as that was largely made for kids are immense, Exar Kun could face down a SM chapter for breakfast. Sidious vs Eldrad would be a nice match-up.

Sc077y wrote:Point is this: Jedi are VASTLY overrated and mandalorians, the probably closest match to a space marine, had been killing Jedi and sith for centuries until more conventional warfare took over when the old republic declared war on the mandalorians and weight of numbers took them out. Now, there are Jedi of renown, Jason, anakain, and Luke, obi wan, mace, yoda, so on and so forth, but there are also chapter masters and psykers of renown as well.

At least someone said it.

/thread?

Sc077y wrote:Ok, so there are a few things that should be clarified before we continue this debate.

Force powers:
force pull: force powers only work when the jedi know what to manipulate. For example, pulling the pin on the grenade if the Jedi can mentally "see" the pin and the grenade it would work, however if they don't know what to manipulate, pulling the pin won't work as they could quite potentially pull the grenade and the pin towards themselves. That probably wouldn't work.

Force push: unless we are talking about a master, most Jedi can't force push much more than a few hundred pounds. Something normally man-sized and just as slow. The average Jedi couldn't turn a rocket in mid flight, let alone a bolter shell flying at machine gun speeds (think somewhere around 2300-3000 foot per second).

Force mobility: force speed and force jump are equally impressive but have distinct drawbacks: force mobility can over stress the jedi's body leaving him weak and worn out. If the stress on the body isn't bad enough, the power takes extreme focus and concentration, normally preventing the user from doing everything else.

Force lightning: this is a sith power but for the sake of argument we,ll discuss it. Force lightning normally targets one person and requires the most intense concentration to use otherwise it may backfire and consume the user (like what happened to sidious when mace was able to weaken him). Additionally, the user must have two organic hands that aren't injured, and normally requires a few seconds to prepare before lightning starts flying around (hence the build up between doku and yoda).

Force choke: very hard and difficult to use, and requires an insane amount of concentration. Even vader himself could barely manage to choke someone and talk at the same time.

Mind control: mind control only works on the weak minded. Sure, it would probably work on guardsmen, but space marines are trained and psychologically indoctrinated to withstand temptation of the warp and the daemon, they would more than likely be able to handle a mind trick.

Any other force power: all force powers are draining to the Jedi and will wear them out during a fight. If force powers were that awesome, Jedi would never have a need for light sabers. There are limitations to the skills of the average Jedi.

Point is this: Jedi are VASTLY overrated and mandalorians, the probably closest match to a space marine, had been killing Jedi and sith for centuries until more conventional warfare took over when the old republic declared war on the mandalorians and weight of numbers took them out. Now, there are Jedi of renown, Jason, anakain, and Luke, obi wan, mace, yoda, so on and so forth, but there are also chapter masters and psykers of renown as well.

I agree with the assessment that a ten man squad of marines could handle you average Jedi, as clone troopers just clearly mowed down Jedi masters quite easily (of course you say, the clone troopers have the element of surprise, but that is just a better example of how fragile Jedi actually can be)

Sure they could be quick and those light sabers are deadly, but they need to close, and while plasma guns probably wont do much, explosive shells from blotters would chew them up pretty seriously, as the jedi principlar line of defense is deflection, which is a great idea so long as the shells don't explode on impact or the physical bolt doesn't splinter into shrapnel.

One average Jedi to a tactical squad is probably pretty accurate.

Nicely put and makes very much sense. And I agree with all that.

This is how I feel about this thread...

Sc077y's argument wins the thread.

Woo hoo! The rookie wins something!!!

Conservation of the Force! An army of Jedi can be easily beaten. A lone Jedi is death incarnate.

Jedi could make the pods crash against each other as they land. They could keep the doors shut and slowly crush them into the Marines inside. also, Jedi are a lot faster and agile. The laser swords are basically power weapons, so they're paired by the power swords and fists, but Jedi can deflect lasers and are far more skilled than marines in swordfighting. Librarians would be the equivalent of an Elite Jedi, while a Character-level librarian would be the equivalent of a Jedi Master. All jedi use the Force and they're not vulnerable to the perils of the warp. They can shoot lightning and stuff.They can force-choke marines in full terminator armor. They can make their bodies explode from the inside. Still, marimes have tanks. And lots of firepower. It really depends on the situation.

Unfortunately, most of those descriptions of Force Powers... aren't entirely accurate.

Asajj Ventriss chokes both Anakin Skywalker and Obi-Wan Kenobi at the same time during a melee... yes, the SW wiki says that the power requires concentration, but doesn't cite the source for the claim, or offer examples in support of the claim.

Luke blinks and Force Chokes 2 Gammorean Guards, and just walks past them.

Force Pull: WH40K and SW grenades look all but identical, down to pins/activation stud placement and textured grip-surfaces, the only major variations arising between the melta-bomb (WH40k) and the thermal detonator (SW). There's nothing in 40K that suggests there's any sort of "safety" mechanism on a Space Marine's power armor to prevent the grenade in his pocket from going off if it were activated.

... all that aside, we still haven't established a force comparison between the Jedi vs the Space Marines, whether it's a single Kill-team vs a single Jedi, or a Company vs the Entire Jedi Order or what.

So, again, I'll repeat my previous statement: There's too many variables in this battle to outright declare an easy victor.

One Jedi vs a entire Squad? Yeah, dead Jedi, 2 or 3 SM killed, possibly, depending on specifics of the battle. Team of Jedi with complementary powers vs a Squad? Bunch of dead Marines.

Jedi Master of Legend vs SM squad? The SM will never see the Jedi who kills them or, if they do, it will be the very last thing they see.

Entire Chapter vs a few Jedi? Um, yeah. Chapter, hands down.

Just saying that, as cross-over battles go, I think SM vs Jedi are two factions that, with their respective skills/abilities/etc are the most closely matched, so much so that, apart from out-of-balance numbers to one side or the other, there's no clear winner at the outset.