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As I said, it depends of the situation. I think the defender would have the big advantage, if we're taalking about some sort of masive assault on a planet or so.

The entire Jedi Order vs. Draigo.

Draigo's Mary Sue powers win. I mean, what he has accomplished is ludicrous even by 40K standards. No, that's not right, it's ludicrous by 40K^DBZ standards. No matter what outrageous example of Jedi/Sith powers we can think of, Matt Ward will just go, "Nuh uh, Draigo gots super wizard armor on and just deflects it all."

This is, basically, true.

I think they just didn't let him name Draigo as "Matteo Wardus".

Even Chuck Norris is jealous at him...

Psienesis wrote:Unfortunately, most of those descriptions of Force Powers... aren't entirely accurate.

Asajj Ventriss chokes both Anakin Skywalker and Obi-Wan Kenobi at the same time during a melee... yes, the SW wiki says that the power requires concentration, but doesn't cite the source for the claim, or offer examples in support of the claim.

Luke blinks and Force Chokes 2 Gammorean Guards, and just walks past them.

Force Pull: WH40K and SW grenades look all but identical, down to pins/activation stud placement and textured grip-surfaces, the only major variations arising between the melta-bomb (WH40k) and the thermal detonator (SW). There's nothing in 40K that suggests there's any sort of "safety" mechanism on a Space Marine's power armor to prevent the grenade in his pocket from going off if it were activated.

... all that aside, we still haven't established a force comparison between the Jedi vs the Space Marines, whether it's a single Kill-team vs a single Jedi, or a Company vs the Entire Jedi Order or what.

So, again, I'll repeat my previous statement: There's too many variables in this battle to outright declare an easy victor.

One Jedi vs a entire Squad? Yeah, dead Jedi, 2 or 3 SM killed, possibly, depending on specifics of the battle. Team of Jedi with complementary powers vs a Squad? Bunch of dead Marines.

Jedi Master of Legend vs SM squad? The SM will never see the Jedi who kills them or, if they do, it will be the very last thing they see.

Entire Chapter vs a few Jedi? Um, yeah. Chapter, hands down.

Just saying that, as cross-over battles go, I think SM vs Jedi are two factions that, with their respective skills/abilities/etc are the most closely matched, so much so that, apart from out-of-balance numbers to one side or the other, there's no clear winner at the outset.

while it is true that a squad of jedi could take out a squad of marines there is a problem with that.

Jedi are even rarer then Space Marines are, so the Jedi will always be outnumbered.

Uh... rare in the "holy trilogy", yes, as they'd been hunted to extermination but... in other periods of time, like, say, the Clone Wars, there were hundreds to thousands of Jedi.

In the era of the Old Republic, when the Jedi Order was still a militant order, and was *the* fighting force for the Republic, the Jedi numbered in the tens of thousands, perhaps magnitudes more (the fluff is unclear), and fielded entire armies, complete with armor support, naval support, orbital warfare capabilities and all the rest of the bit. Like a combined IG/Imp. Navy military... backed up by the Force.

Following the establishment of the NJO, the Jedi were once again... well, not exactly "common" but definitely far more numerous than they had been in centuries, in part because Skywalker lifted the "maximum age rule" for induction for training.

Psienesis wrote:Uh... rare in the "holy trilogy", yes, as they'd been hunted to extermination but... in other periods of time, like, say, the Clone Wars, there were hundreds to thousands of Jedi.

In the era of the Old Republic, when the Jedi Order was still a militant order, and was *the* fighting force for the Republic, the Jedi numbered in the tens of thousands, perhaps magnitudes more (the fluff is unclear), and fielded entire armies, complete with armor support, naval support, orbital warfare capabilities and all the rest of the bit. Like a combined IG/Imp. Navy military... backed up by the Force.

Following the establishment of the NJO, the Jedi were once again... well, not exactly "common" but definitely far more numerous than they had been in centuries, in part because Skywalker lifted the "maximum age rule" for induction for training.

even if there were 100,000 jedi during the Clone Wars the Marines would still have a 10 to 1 advantage.

there are approximatly 1000 chapters of 1000 marines each(in actuality, a full strength marine chapter has about 1500 marines) so 1,000,000 marines at any one time.

Yes, approximately 1000 chapters, most with 1000 fighting men and about half as many in various stages of recruitment or convalescence. And then there are the chapters that field way more than 1000 Astartes, like the Black Templar and Space Wolves.

DeadlySquirrel wrote:A single jedi at the height of his/her power could wipe out a codex chapter. Nuff said.

Psienesis wrote:Unfortunately, most of those descriptions of Force Powers... aren't entirely accurate.

Asajj Ventriss chokes both Anakin Skywalker and Obi-Wan Kenobi at the same time during a melee... yes, the SW wiki says that the power requires concentration, but doesn't cite the source for the claim, or offer examples in support of the claim.

Luke blinks and Force Chokes 2 Gammorean Guards, and just walks past them.

Force Pull: WH40K and SW grenades look all but identical, down to pins/activation stud placement and textured grip-surfaces, the only major variations arising between the melta-bomb (WH40k) and the thermal detonator (SW). There's nothing in 40K that suggests there's any sort of "safety" mechanism on a Space Marine's power armor to prevent the grenade in his pocket from going off if it were activated.
.

i pulled my information from the role playing game that a friend of mine assisted writitng several resource books for, then vetted the information against him. If i am wrong, oh well, i dont have an ego about such things, but i'm not entirely certain i am. Ventriss was exceptionally powerful, ill give you that, and there would normally be no way she would be able to get away with that if it didnt make for a great dramatic moment in the cartoon, and even then she couldnt hold them there for long.

the comment about luke choking the two gamorrean guards, well, luke is THE MOST POWERFUL JEDI EVER. in all the novels, starting with the heir to the empire series and forward he is widely considered the most powerful of all the jedi, and has been confirmed so in many of the novels. he could force choke fifty of them if he wanted to, the same way Librarian Ahirman could suck 100 jedi into the warp or change them into a funky purple goo. they are renowned charectors that are the exception to the rule, not the rule.

also, not sure what other force powers are inaccurate, but let me know and i will seek understanding so i can correct myself.

Sc077y wrote:

Psienesis wrote:Unfortunately, most of those descriptions of Force Powers... aren't entirely accurate.

Asajj Ventriss chokes both Anakin Skywalker and Obi-Wan Kenobi at the same time during a melee... yes, the SW wiki says that the power requires concentration, but doesn't cite the source for the claim, or offer examples in support of the claim.

Luke blinks and Force Chokes 2 Gammorean Guards, and just walks past them.

Force Pull: WH40K and SW grenades look all but identical, down to pins/activation stud placement and textured grip-surfaces, the only major variations arising between the melta-bomb (WH40k) and the thermal detonator (SW). There's nothing in 40K that suggests there's any sort of "safety" mechanism on a Space Marine's power armor to prevent the grenade in his pocket from going off if it were activated.
.

i pulled my information from the role playing game that a friend of mine assisted writitng several resource books for, then vetted the information against him. If i am wrong, oh well, i dont have an ego about such things, but i'm not entirely certain i am. Ventriss was exceptionally powerful, ill give you that, and there would normally be no way she would be able to get away with that if it didnt make for a great dramatic moment in the cartoon, and even then she couldnt hold them there for long.

the comment about luke choking the two gamorrean guards, well, luke is THE MOST POWERFUL JEDI EVER. in all the novels, starting with the heir to the empire series and forward he is widely considered the most powerful of all the jedi, and has been confirmed so in many of the novels. he could force choke fifty of them if he wanted to, the same way Librarian Ahirman could suck 100 jedi into the warp or change them into a funky purple goo. they are renowned charectors that are the exception to the rule, not the rule.

also, not sure what other force powers are inaccurate, but let me know and i will seek understanding so i can correct myself.

you will notice in the movie that Luke didn't choke both of them at the same time. he did one, and then turned to the other.

the closest Yoda came was giving 2 of Palpatine's guards a simultainious Appendectomy when he confronted him.

For some reason I wanna put my cuote of nerdies... jajaja
I don`t now really... but 5 companies of space marines counter jedis??? that`s a lot of space marines charging special weapons, power weapons, power fist... and what with the jedis??? laser sabres and the force???.
I put my money in the marines pocket, seriusly, the jedis are really cool, formidable warriors and all that gak, but you cannot use the force against a space marine, remember, they kill eldars like butter.

This post is for far the most bizzarre that I see ever... jajajaja

the comment about luke choking the two gamorrean guards, well, luke is THE MOST POWERFUL JEDI EVER.

No, he isn't. He is powerful, yes... but he doesn't hold a candle to the Jedi or Sith of the "ancient days" of the Old Republic or the Jedi Civil War or Great Sith War eras.

He is, yes, the most powerful Jedi in recent memory. He's definitely no slouch when it comes to mastery of the Force. He's definitely greater than Yoda or Obi-Wan... but even throughout the EU novels, he doesn't hold a candle to other, Legendary Masters/Legendary Dark Lords, though he is, himself, a Legendary Master. Incidentally, I use the "Legendary Master" title to refer to all of the particularly renown Jedi/Dark Lords throughout the SW EU.

Rather, he didn't use to be, though Lucas might have come along and handwaved all of that and somehow threw out all of that and made Luke the #1 Jedi Ever.

Let's look at it this way... Luke gets captured by the Ssi-Ruuk and nearly Enteched. Could you imagine this happening to Darth Nihilus?

That said... I really *like* EU Skywalker. Shoot, I like Ep3-6 Skywalker. The character is pretty awesome and, unlike certain other characters in the SW or 40K universe, I think he develops, as a person, in a rather believable way, what with all of the powers he has tempered with the responsibilities placed upon him and so forth... at least in comparison to many other characters in either universe.

Though I get where you are coming from in your descriptions of the powers... they sound perfectly balanced (as such things go) for an RPG setting where no single PC/NPC ability can be utterly, no-save-allowed killy-dred. It's just that the RPG descriptions are not exactly supported by the visual media, which takes precedence in the SW canon.

Though, when it comes down to it, some sources of 40K lore have Space Marines being beaten to death with rocks (just like certain monochromatic soldiers on a certain not-quite-a-Death-World-moon)... so maybe they aren't as cool as people would like to think they are, either.

while marines are occasionally killed by rocks, said rocks are rarely thrown by two and 1/2 foot teddy bears and are often quite large.

Nah, it's in... one of the SM omnibus collections, I forget which one, (Ultramarines, maybe?) but some force of heretic cultist foot-sloggers beat a few to death with sticks and rocks.

Probably wouldn't have happened if they remembered to wear a damn helmet...

Psienesis wrote:Nah, it's in... one of the SM omnibus collections, I forget which one, (Ultramarines, maybe?) but some force of heretic cultist foot-sloggers beat a few to death with sticks and rocks.

Probably wouldn't have happened if they remembered to wear a damn helmet...

This is most definitely not in the Ultramarines Omnibus.

I belive they were just crushed under the mass of bodies.

even a marine can have his chest crushed under enough weight(the joints are the weak spots)

Psienesis wrote:No, he isn't. He is powerful, yes... but he doesn't hold a candle to the Jedi or Sith of the "ancient days" of the Old Republic or the Jedi Civil War or Great Sith War eras.

Ah the lies we believe...

Anyway, single marine firing on a single Jedi with a bolter wins.

Not a master, or an exceptionally skilled knight, a random jedi, who are not that impressive. The kind who get killed by a single blaster pistol wielded by a Mandalorian that is not being writte by Traviss.

Psienesis wrote:

the comment about luke choking the two gamorrean guards, well, luke is THE MOST POWERFUL JEDI EVER.

No, he isn't. He is powerful, yes... but he doesn't hold a candle to the Jedi or Sith of the "ancient days" of the Old Republic or the Jedi Civil War or Great Sith War eras.

Uh, no. According to Lucas, Luke is the most powerful Jedi ever. Period. His father was the Chosen one, whose potential was stunted by being like 75% robot.

The "ancient days" Jedi weren't that powerful, and most of the Sith's potency lay in their alchemy... i.e. various amulets to enhance their offensive powers, giant monsters they created, etc. The techniques were more refined back then, but raw strength? No one has anything on Luke.

Sidious is also described as being the most powerful Sith Lord ever, although it could be argued Orbalisk'd Bane or post-transformation Nihilous had more raw power.

yeah, Luke was simple brute power. this amplified itself in the fact the Jedi of the new republic had many characteristics of the Sith as well as far as powers went.

a Jedi of the Old Republic would never have used force choke, lightining, or drain. but the Jedi of the New Rupublic would be perfectly fine with it(as long as the intentions were pure)



the Techniques were largely lost when the Jedi Order was destroyed.

Who knows how powerful Luke would be if he had access to the teachings of the Old Republic. if he was able to recover all the lost Holocrons or have been given a proper training by Yoda and Obi-wan.

Grey Templar wrote:a Jedi of the Old Republic would never have used force choke, lightining, or drain. but the Jedi of the New Rupublic would be perfectly fine with it(as long as the intentions were pure

This was briefly proposed in the New Jedi Order books as the Jedi adopted some of the lessons Jason learned from Vergere, but after he started acting and dressing up like grandpa, they've pretty much ruled that out now. So no Dark Side techniques for the Jedi.

In regards to Anakin not tapping into his full potential, just wanna say that Sidious theorised that Anakin's stunted growth was not due to being mostly mechanical, but due to his mental state and uncertainty.

Well, considering that now force powers come from midichlorian count (what a god damn stupid concept, Lucas needs to either die or give up creative control to his sons or something), which reside in organic matter, his count was severely reduced by having a huge chunk of his body replaced.

But yes, I was going to mention the mental status issue as well, but I hate being reminded of how they ruined Darth Vader.

Omegus wrote:Well, considering that now force powers come from midichlorian count (what a god damn stupid concept, Lucas needs to either die or give up creative control to his sons or something), which reside in organic matter, his count was severely reduced by having a huge chunk of his body replaced.

But yes, I was going to mention the mental status issue as well, but I hate being reminded of how they ruined Darth Vader.

I am gonna take a risk and say something:

Darth Vader was always a little bitch, it was just not so readily apparent.

That said, agreed on midichlorians, Lucas should be punched in the stomach for that crap. It would be like Gandalf revealing that magic in Lord of the Rings is accomplished via nanomachines. It would be almost exactly like that, actually.

Omegus wrote:The entire Jedi Order vs. Draigo.

Draigo's Mary Sue powers win. I mean, what he has accomplished is ludicrous even by 40K standards. No, that's not right, it's ludicrous by 40K^DBZ standards. No matter what outrageous example of Jedi/Sith powers we can think of, Matt Ward will just go, "Nuh uh, Draigo gots super wizard armor on and just deflects it all."

QFT
I have never heard such a ridicilious statement but i agree with that XD

Omegus wrote:

Hey, I am sure John Voight has a perfectly lovely ballsack.

Though, huh. Both Boba and Vader, two characters who were considered badasses by most in the fandom (For the record, I hate Boba Fett, and all Mandalorians), were then shown as little kids with angsty parent crap then they get sad. Lucas is not a particularly versatile writer.

Although, let me say, Sidious and Yoda were more awesome in the PT, IMO.

Void__Dragon wrote:

Omegus wrote:

Hey, I am sure John Voight has a perfectly lovely ballsack.

Though, huh. Both Boba and Vader, two characters who were considered badasses by most in the fandom (For the record, I hate Boba Fett, and all Mandalorians), were then shown as little kids with angsty parent crap then they get sad. Lucas is not a particularly versatile writer.

Although, let me say, Sidious and Yoda were more awesome in the PT, IMO.

Yoda and Sidious were the best of all the characters in StarWars

Omegus wrote:

as absolutly crass as that was, it was pretty frakkin hilarious