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Use of Light Side/Dark Side powers, IRT the Jedi Order, varies by era. The Jedi Order oscillates on many of its other points, as well, ranging from ultra-conservative through moderate views to extremely liberal. The NJO of Skywalker's design allows the Jedi some of the most freedoms they've been allowed in thousands of years. Luke noticed that it was the restrictive nature of the previous Order that caused so many people to fall to the Dark Side.

Anakin was, indeed, "The Chosen One". He was chosen, by the Force, to "bring balance to the Force", which is the prophesy quoted in the prequel films. How in the feth the Jedi Order missed the extremely *obvious* meaning of this prophesy is beyond me...

Anakin does this very, very well.

In the beginning of Ep1, we have hundreds, if not thousands, of "Light Side" Jedi, and all of 3 Sith: a Master (Palpatine), a sort-of Master (Dooku), and an Apprentice (Maul).

Then Darth Maul gets cut in half, leaving 2 Sith Lords (Palpatine and Dooku).

Then Dooku gets decapitated, leaving 1 Dark Lord (Palpatine) and a sorta-kinda apprentice (Skywalker).

Then the sorta-kinda apprentice becomes full-on Sith apprentice, creating 2 Sith and lots and lots of Light Side Jedi, minus 1.

Then the 2 Sith go on to kick ass and take names... in the end, we have 2 Sith (Palpatine and Vader) and 2 Light Side Jedi (Yoda and Kenobi). The Force has been brought to balance, the prophesy fulfilled.

This is all Anakin was ever prophesied to do and be, and he was the Force-User built to do it. He was not made to be the "most powerful Force-User ever", nor was Luke... though Luke *does* complete the prophesy by taking his walk on the Dark Side, since he is the only living Jedi, having killed/caused to be killed both Vader and Palpatine, and Yoda and Kenobi both now dead, and becoming, in the end, neither Light nor Dark, but rather, to an extent, a Master of both (which does make him, in this balance, the most powerful Jedi ever... from a certain point of view).

Who knows how powerful Luke would be if he had access to the teachings of the Old Republic. if he was able to recover all the lost Holocrons or have been given a proper training by Yoda and Obi-wan.

Indeed, but we will never know, because that didn't happen, for the most part. Sure, later in the EU, some holocrons were recovered and studied and so on... but not all of them, and those that were recovered were, iirc, fragmentary, at best.

So in other words, you don't actually have any proof that the old Jedi/Sith were stronger beyond "I said so"?

Luke was confirmed to be the strongest, only Sidious or Nihilus can contest that claim.

Everyone else is so far below them to be laughable.

(wish I had come into this thread earlier)

I would just like to point out that Jedi are not any more effective when in numbers, or at least not as much as space marines. Jedi are not exactly designed to fight in units. Take the assault on the Jedi Temple by the 501sts for example. Obviously a couple troopers are no match for the jedi, but even though the 501sts probably only outnumbered the Jedi maybe 3-1, they are stronger in numbers.

Also remember that boltguns cannot be deflected, and most Jedi are very weak with the force. If anything Bolt rounds would explode on contact with a lightsaber.

Not to mention a single chapter of space marines would bomb the gak out of the Jedi Temple no worries.

he just said Luke was the most powerful Jedi ever.

by becoming a Master of both, he brought the power of both the light and dark side together in one individual.



I also was able to catch how Anakin was indeed the chosen one.

He culled the Jedi's ranks along with Sidious.

then, later, he killed Sidious and also died himself.

this left Luke to master both Light and Dark and bring ultimate balance in one master.


it was the will of the Force to have Anakin create balance by essentially self destructing the Jedi and Sith from within, so they could return to their roots as a single entity. as originally, both Light and Dark jedi were members of the order and it flourished. it was when the order started to decide that the Dark jedi were evil and banished them that things went to hell.

Void__Dragon wrote:So in other words, you don't actually have any proof that the old Jedi/Sith were stronger beyond "I said so"?

Luke was confirmed to be the strongest, only Sidious or Nihilus can contest that claim.

Everyone else is so far below them to be laughable.

Pretty sure your forgetting Revan and Exar Kun. Where does it confirm Luke to be the strongest Jedi? Or is this just in the period ABY?

having Lukas himself say Luke was the most powerful jedi ever is pretty strong evidence.

and does anyone find it a little egotistical of George for his character to have a name so similer to his own???

Jaon wrote:Pretty sure your forgetting Revan and Exar Kun. Where does it confirm Luke to be the strongest Jedi? Or is this just in the period ABY?

Nihilus would eat both. At the same time.

Revan in particular is so overrated it's fething disgusting.

Was he a Sith of renown and power? Sure.

But compared to Luke, Sidious, or especially Nihilus, he is nothing special. In terms of power, anyway.

And tzeentch sits back and laughs as his plans for turning the starwars and space marine fanboys against eachother

Void__Dragon wrote:
Though, huh. Both Boba and Vader, two characters who were considered badasses by most in the fandom (For the record, I hate Boba Fett, and all Mandalorians), were then shown as little kids with angsty parent crap then they get sad. Lucas is not a particularly versatile writer.

Although, let me say, Sidious and Yoda were more awesome in the PT, IMO.

Yes, Lucas is a terrible, awful writer and a not much better director. That's why the best Star Wars movie (Empire Strikes Back) is the one for which he did the least amount of writing (he had several contributors on all the OT movies, but especially ESB) and did not direct. He pretty much did all the writing and directing for the new trilogy, and we get gems like:

"You are so beautiful."
"It's only because I am in love."
"No, it's because I'm so in love with you."

That, or someone literally dying of a broken heart.

As for Sidious, I quite enjoyed the cackling old man in the OT. In the PT his manipulation of Anakin seemed so hamfisted and obvious (was he just reading from Manipulating Retards for Dummies?, and his "evil guy" voice was more over the top than Christian Bale's "I just chain smoked a whole box of cigarettes and am all pissed off that I'm out of cigarettes" Batman voice in Dark Knight.

Yoda was badass, I'll give you that.

Omegus wrote:Yes, Lucas is a terrible, awful writer and a not much better director. That's why the best Star Wars movie (Empire Strikes Back) is the one for which he did the least amount of writing (he had several contributors on all the OT movies, but especially ESB) and did not direct. He pretty much did all the writing and directing for the new trilogy, and we get gems like:

"You are so beautiful."
"It's only because I am in love."
"No, it's because I'm so in love with you."

That, or someone literally dying of a broken heart.

As for Sidious, I quite enjoyed the cackling old man in the OT. In the PT his manipulation of Anakin seemed so hamfisted and obvious (was he just reading from Manipulating Retards for Dummies?, and his "evil guy" voice was more over the top than Christian Bale's "I just chain smoked a whole box of cigarettes and am all pissed off that I'm out of cigarettes" Batman voice in Dark Knight.

Yoda was badass, I'll give you that.

Empire Strikes Back is probably my favorite, yeah. The epic fight at the end was awesome.

Oh dear God please don't talk about the fething dialogue, especially regarding the friggin' "romance."

Holy crap, he needs to get shot for that crap alone.

To be fair, Anakin IS a moron. I won't lie, the "manipulation" was not handled well, that George Lucas writing and all... But I loved his hammy performance, and the overexagerrated nature of his fights.

Pft, you can't not think Yoda is badass.

Oh, and Count Dooku, but... Really, even when playing a total loser, like he did Saruman, Christopher Lee is incapable of NOT playing a badass, everything he does reeks badassery. Playing the fething dad in Charlie and the Chocolate Factory was badass. He could play ANYTHING and still be badass.

My favorite scene for bad writing, and even WORSE acting, was when Anakin swears fealty to Sidious.

he goes from "what have I done???" to "I will do ANYTHING you command" in less then 5 seconds.



I think Hayden was a fair choice for the visual, but he doesn't act very well.

Miss Portmen was a good choice for Padme and I think her acting was fine.

the 2 of them together made for awkward acting for some reason.

Void__Dragon wrote:So in other words, you don't actually have any proof that the old Jedi/Sith were stronger beyond "I said so"?

Luke was confirmed to be the strongest, only Sidious or Nihilus can contest that claim.

Everyone else is so far below them to be laughable.

Uh... neither Sidious nor Nihilus are Jedi so... we're getting into the (not obvious enough, apparently) Lucas-ism reference I made in my previous post. "From a certain point of view" Luke may be the most powerful Jedi to ever live... but, trouble is, it's never demonstrated to be fact in anything in the EU. Or in the films, for that matter. There's also the fact that Lucas now views the entire film series as "movies for kids" and doesn't give it much thought... I would like to see the reference where Lucas states that Luke is the "most powerful Jedi ever", mainly because my Google-Fu seems to be failing me on finding it.

There's also several quotes throughout the EU that explain that the users of the Force, both Jedi and Sith, have been growing weaker as time goes on. One in particular sticks in my mind, from KOTOR2, where Kreia explains (to the Jedi Exile) that the ancient Dark Lords of the Sith, like those buried in the Valley of the Jedi, were more powerful than the Exile, or even Revan, could ever dream to be... and this is nearly 4,000 years before the Clone Wars.

I would just like to point out that Jedi are not any more effective when in numbers, or at least not as much as space marines. Jedi are not exactly designed to fight in units. Take the assault on the Jedi Temple by the 501sts for example. Obviously a couple troopers are no match for the jedi, but even though the 501sts probably only outnumbered the Jedi maybe 3-1, they are stronger in numbers.

Depends on the era, actually. Before becoming a religious order, the Jedi were, primarily, a military order, though this definitively ended with the Ruusan Reformation. And, yeah, they are more capable in pairs or teams... this is why the Order often sent them in groups, if they were available to send. It's basic logistics... if one thing works pretty well, but works better with this other thing, which works better with this other other thing, and we have this fourth thing that can keep them all working at their best efficiency, then it's best to send them all together. In terms of 40K psykers, a telekine is pretty awesome, and better with a pyrokine on hand, who works even better with a telepath/diviner available to hide their approach, and a biomancer can keep them all alive and able to survive in a vacuum and walk through fire and turn their bodies into living stone to shrug off bolter fire.

I'd also point out that, at the time of Anakin's attack on the Temple, most of the Jedi Masters weren't there, just some Knights, the support staff, a few Padawans and the Younglings... not really a challenge to the 501st lead by Darth Vader.

And tzeentch sits back and laughs as his plans for turning the starwars and space marine fanboys against eachother

Eh, I'm a fan of all three (Space Marines, Star Wars and Tzeentch, specifically) and I'm not here saying that Jedi are totally all-powerful and would instantly destroy Space Marines or anything of the sort... I'm just saying that I think Space Marines might not find the Jedi to be an easy target to kill, but it all very much depends on the specifics of the battlefield, numbers available, and other such tactical considerations.

In an open arena with a single, average Jedi on one side and a fully-armed and armored Space Marine on the other... yeah, that Jedi is going to need a *lot* of unique gifts as Force Powers and a boatload of luck to kill the Marine... but a Jedi with the stealth and speed of, say, a Harlequin? Might do it.


Edited for spelling errors (it's July 4th, I have some degree of PTSD, and people are blowing things up outside.... yeah, I'm drinking heavily) and to add, IRT Miss Portman and her performance as Padme Amidala.

Loved her in Ep1. Though young (what planet elects a 14 year old as queen??!!), she portrayed the character as hyper-intelligent, extremely politically savvy, very wise-beyond-her-years and, basically, a perfect fit for the role. In Ep2 and 3.... the writing failed the character horribly, and basically made her a moron.

Also, she didn't die of a broken heart... this has since been ret-conned into having been Force Choked by Anakin when he accused her of having an affair with Obi-Wan and bringing him to Mustafar to kill him.

Nicholas wrote:

DeathReaper wrote:Jedi wins and here is why:

A jedi can move at great speed, so as soon as the shooting starts the jedi would no longer be in that location.

The marines carry grenades, the jedi pulls all those pins on those grenades and the entire tac squad goes boom.

So to recap, Lightning speed, Force powers to pull the pin on all the SM Krak grenades, and the SM's all die.

So he's going to dodge 10 bolters on rapid fire while pulling the pins on the grenades Sounds pretty ridiculous they are fast, but I never saw a jedi move that fast in any movie especially while concentrating that hard.

He moves at great speed and can sense when the guns are going to be fired, he moves to a location where he will not be hit by the shells then senses where the grenade pins are and makes the Krak grenades explode on their hip.

A jedi's superior senses would let him prevail.

Sc077y wrote:Force mobility: force speed and force jump are equally impressive but have distinct drawbacks: force mobility can over stress the jedi's body leaving him weak and worn out. If the stress on the body isn't bad enough, the power takes extreme focus and concentration, normally preventing the user from doing everything else.

The jedi could just hold his lightsabers out and super speed past all the space marines, there goes the tac squad with nothing but the jedi and his use of force speed.

FYI Jedi also have force illusion powers. So the force is a powerful ally indeed.

DeathReaper wrote:

Nicholas wrote:

DeathReaper wrote:Jedi wins and here is why:

A jedi can move at great speed, so as soon as the shooting starts the jedi would no longer be in that location.

The marines carry grenades, the jedi pulls all those pins on those grenades and the entire tac squad goes boom.

So to recap, Lightning speed, Force powers to pull the pin on all the SM Krak grenades, and the SM's all die.

So he's going to dodge 10 bolters on rapid fire while pulling the pins on the grenades Sounds pretty ridiculous they are fast, but I never saw a jedi move that fast in any movie especially while concentrating that hard.

He moves at great speed and can sense when the guns are going to be fired, he moves to a location where he will not be hit by the shells then senses where the grenade pins are and makes the Krak grenades explode on their hip.

A jedi's superior senses would let him prevail.

Sc077y wrote:Force mobility: force speed and force jump are equally impressive but have distinct drawbacks: force mobility can over stress the jedi's body leaving him weak and worn out. If the stress on the body isn't bad enough, the power takes extreme focus and concentration, normally preventing the user from doing everything else.

The jedi could just hold his lightsabers out and super speed past all the space marines, there goes the tac squad with nothing but the jedi and his use of force speed.

FYI Jedi also have force illusion powers. So the force is a powerful ally indeed.

it is the rare Jedi that can do all of those things in quick succession. it would be rather draining. a jedi risks hurting himself by attempting something beyond his ability.

and Marines have just as good reflexs as a Jedi using Force Speed. the Marine has it naturally, the Jedi needs to use his limited abilities to alter the abilities of his body.


the basic Eldar's reaction speed is described as being almost too fast for the human eye to follow.

Space marines are just as fast as an Eldar is naturally(training can make an eldar faster)


so a Space Marine must have equal speed to a Jedi using Force Speed, unless the Jedi is sufficiently powerful to move faster or do multiple things at once.

A question I have, since some have viewed their opinions saying one Jedi can take on chapters of space marines and that they could send thousands of Jedi destroy anything they wanted then why did they need to Clones to fight their battles when the enemy they were facing were mere droids who dont even come close to the feigning prowess of a space marine, let alone a neophyte?

Riddick40k wrote:A question I have, since some have viewed their opinions saying one Jedi can take on chapters of space marines and that they could send thousands of Jedi destroy anything they wanted then why did they need to Clones to fight their battles when the enemy they were facing were mere droids who dont even come close to the feigning prowess of a space marine, let alone a neophyte?

While each Jedi is equal to a thousand droids, there are trillions of droids spread out in armies of millions around the enite galaxy. Sure all the Jedi together could curb stomp opne army of droids, but while they're doing that all the other armies are advancing unopposed.

Not to mention, a Jedi destroys a thousand, ten thousand droids...the Separtists can build more cheaply and quickly. Those ten thousand droids kill ONE Jedi? Well, how hard is it going to be to train a new Jedi to replace him?

Quite simply, the droids outnumber the Jedi so much that no matter how good each Jedi is, the droids will win through sheer overwhelming numbers. The Republic needed more man power than the Jedi can provide. They need people to man the ships that make sure the Separtists don't just blast the Jedi from orbit. They need people to hold the line in the places where the Jedi simply can't be in the numbers needed to halt a droid army. This is what the clones provided.

In the end, Goku beats all :(

Grey Templar wrote:My favorite scene for bad writing, and even WORSE acting, was when Anakin swears fealty to Sidious.

he goes from "what have I done???" to "I will do ANYTHING you command" in less then 5 seconds.

Oh yeah, I loved that crap. Went from wanting to be a great Jedi hero that saves the Republic, to slaughtering children (oh, I'm sorry, I meant younglings to take away the emotional impact... as if anything in this shitheap has anything remotely approaching emotional impact) in literally 2 or 3 minutes of screen time.

Really, if you think about it, Anakin/Vader is probably the biggest tool in the history of ...well, anything.

"I want to be a podracer pilot!"
"Podracing is stupid, you should totally be a Jedi."
"Okay!"
"Jedi are a bunch of queers, you should totally be a Sith."
"Hells yeah!"
"Stop being such a dick, you should totally kill the Emperor."
"Sure thing!"
"Now hurry up and die already so we can digitally replace your ghost with Hayden Christensen."
Wheeze. Cough. "Blegh--*"

And another ridiculous thing is how they built up his mother to be this great tragedy in his life. Really? Like he couldn't ask Amidala or his buddy Uncle Palpatine for a loan to go buy her freedom? Nah, he just abandons her for the better part of a decade to be a slave to some flying Jewish anteater (man, that gak was so racist), only finally deciding to go back after she gets gangbanged to death by sand people. And then he whines for the rest of the trilogy about how he wasn't strong enough to protect her. Uh, newsflash buddy, you were strong enough, you just forgot because you were busy sticking it to Natalie Portman.





Automatically Appended Next Post:

Psienesis wrote:There's also several quotes throughout the EU that explain that the users of the Force, both Jedi and Sith, have been growing weaker as time goes on. One in particular sticks in my mind, from KOTOR2, where Kreia explains (to the Jedi Exile) that the ancient Dark Lords of the Sith, like those buried in the Valley of the Jedi, were more powerful than the Exile, or even Revan, could ever dream to be... and this is nearly 4,000 years before the Clone Wars.

That's crap coming from someone whose Sith name meant betrayal, who also spent the entire game lying to the protagonist and wanted to destroy the Force entirely.

Having read and/or played most of the EU (pretty much everything except the Young Jedi Knights stuff), from the Golden Age of the Sith, through KOTOR, through the Rebel Alliance and New Republic Eras, and even the most recent stuff set a century or so after Luke's death, there is no real demonstrable difference in power levels of the various force users of those times. The biggest stand-outs in terms of ridiculous overt power are Nihilous, Bane and Sidious on the Sith side, and pretty much just the Skywalkers on the Jedi side... which makes sense when you consider the first force-user of the Skywalker line is the Star Wars equivalent of Jesus. The only real differences stem from the techniques available.

And while many of the holocrons are destroyed by Luke's time, the New Jedi Order has recovered several holocrons with a slew of information (including such gems as the Tedryn Holocron and the Holocrons of Asli Krimsan and Arca Jeth... containing knowledege of some of the most legendary Jedi of the KOTOR era and before), and Luke and Jacen also spent like a decade travelling around to various Force cults and sects, gathering all sorts of esoteric abilities. I don't remember any of the ancient Dark Lords travelling through fething time. Luke is the most powerful Jedi both in terms of raw power (his dad is the FORCE JESUS) AND technique (he combined the teachings of Sidious, who had a library gathered over thousands of years starting from Bane; the ancient Jedi Order from the holocrons; the Republic's Jedi Order from Yoda; and the various teachings of non-Sith/Jedi Force cults).

Seriously, people... I'm such a big Star Wars nerd, I make myself sick. Luke is so ridiculously powerful, his Mary Sue levels fall somewhere between Son Goku and Kaldor Draigo.

Omegus wrote:

Grey Templar wrote:My favorite scene for bad writing, and even WORSE acting, was when Anakin swears fealty to Sidious.

he goes from "what have I done???" to "I will do ANYTHING you command" in less then 5 seconds.

Oh yeah, I loved that crap. Went from wanting to be a great Jedi hero that saves the Republic, to slaughtering children (oh, I'm sorry, I meant younglings to take away the emotional impact... as if anything in this shitheap has anything remotely approaching emotional impact) in literally 2 or 3 minutes of screen time.

Really, if you think about it, Anakin/Vader is probably the biggest tool in the history of ...well, anything.

"I want to be a podracer pilot!"
"Podracing is stupid, you should totally be a Jedi."
"Okay!"
"Jedi are a bunch of queers, you should totally be a Sith."
"Hells yeah!"
"Stop being such a dick, you should totally kill the Emperor."
"Sure thing!"
"Now hurry up and die already so we can digitally replace your ghost with Hayden Christensen."
Wheeze. Cough. "Blegh--*"

And another ridiculous thing is how they built up his mother to be this great tragedy in his life. Really? Like he couldn't ask Amidala or his buddy Uncle Palpatine for a loan to go buy her freedom? Nah, he just abandons her for the better part of a decade to be a slave to some flying Jewish anteater (man, that gak was so racist), only finally deciding to go back after she gets gangbanged to death by sand people. And then he whines for the rest of the trilogy about how he wasn't strong enough to protect her. Uh, newsflash buddy, you were strong enough, you just forgot because you were busy sticking it to Natalie Portman.

Just stop, I can't take it! Remembering back to to some of this terrible crap in the PT is just painful. Lucas needs to give up writing forever.

Seriously, people... I'm such a big Star Wars nerd, I make myself sick. Luke is so ridiculously powerful, his Mary Sue levels fall somewhere between Son Goku and Kaldor Draigo.

Luke vs Draigo vs Goku... hmmm.

daedalus-templarius wrote:Luke vs Draigo vs Goku... hmmm.

Don't go there...

One thing about pulling pins on the grenades it would take tons of concentration to pull ten at one time, or even five. It's not like the marines would all be standing around letting him concentrate, he would be taking tons of incoming fire. Even if he did manage to pull the pins before being blown away he would be dead in the next second.

lol, you guys have covered some of the "greatest" star wars quotes, i cant watch episode 3 again because i hate the acting so much...

Riddick40k wrote:And tzeentch sits back and laughs as his plans for turning the starwars and space marine fanboys against eachother

Then Chuck Norris comes in and everyone loses.

And then Bruce Lee appears and Chick Norris runs away.

iproxtaco wrote:And then Bruce Lee appears and Chick Norris runs away.

HERESY!

iproxtaco wrote:And then Bruce Lee appears and Chick Norris runs away.

Hey, to be fair, Bruce kicked Chuck's ass, but it was pre-beard Chuck

Oh yeah? Since there's only Chuck Norris and Bruce Lee left, watcha gonna do about it?

iproxtaco wrote:Oh yeah? Since there's only Chuck Norris and Bruce Lee left, watcha gonna do about it?

If you notice in Return of the Dragon when Chuck fights Bruce in the Colosseum Chuck doesn't have his beard yet. The beard gives him power!

Crom wrote:

iproxtaco wrote:Oh yeah? Since there's only Chuck Norris and Bruce Lee left, watcha gonna do about it?

If you notice in Return of the Dragon when Chuck fights Bruce in the Colosseum Chuck doesn't have his beard yet. The beard gives him power!

But that goes against established fluff, in which Chuck was born with his beard. Return of the Dragon is non-canon. Besides, Chuck didn't have a chance, since the screenplay was written as a collaboration between Ward and Goto.

yeah, hes got another fist behind that beard...duh, even bruce lee cant sustain that amount of firepower!!!