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JB_Man wrote:Almost every player took a melta and a heavy flamer in every squad...

Why is that up for debate, again?


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DarknessEternal wrote:And for whoever lied about only Rhinos getting better; Seraphim are vastly improved. 68% the cost and twice the offense.

And -1 initiative, no rending, and no invulnerable saves. You can't compare the models like that. The army relied on more than just a good stat line.

Wait, what?

Seraphim, due to the new version of the Angelic Visage special rule, not only HAVE the (nearly?) army-wide invulnerable saves, but they get to re-roll their failed 6++ saves.

Pouncey wrote:
Seraphim, due to the new version of the Angelic Visage special rule, not only HAVE the (nearly?) army-wide invulnerable saves, but they get to re-roll their failed 6++ saves.

I should have been more clear when I said "no invulnerable save." Compare that to the old faith 3+ invulnerable. Call me crazy, but I'll take my 3+ invul, rending, and initiative over a rerollable 6+ invulnerable and rerolling wounds. I'm just glad that I never used the Inferno Pistol, anyways.

It's interesting that people are acting like the 3+ Invulnerable save was permanent and on every unit.

DarknessEternal wrote:It's interesting that people are acting like the 3+ Invulnerable save was permanent and on every unit.

That's because it practically was. Especially since Seraphim were practically guaranteed to get it, or anything else. 9 faith points + martyrs lasts a very long time, especially when you only need rending in the last few turns when you're actually spamming fire and invuls in emergencies or for Seraphim.

DarknessEternal wrote:It's interesting that people are acting like the 3+ Invulnerable save was permanent and on every unit.

I find it interesting for - I suspect - precisely the opposite reason to the reason you find it interesting. All I've heard from folks arguing in favour of the changes to the Faith system is how the 3++ was 'game breaking' for exactly that (erroneous) reason. I suppose it's a one of those Guardian vs. Daily Mail things - diff'rent strokes, and all that.

Mythal wrote:

DarknessEternal wrote:It's interesting that people are acting like the 3+ Invulnerable save was permanent and on every unit.

I find it interesting for - I suspect - precisely the opposite reason to the reason you find it interesting. All I've heard from folks arguing in favour of the changes to the Faith system is how the 3++ was 'game breaking' for exactly that (erroneous) reason. I suppose it's a one of those Guardian vs. Daily Mail things - diff'rent strokes, and all that.

I can see why people would say that. How many times, in a fully mechanised army, do you really need to take advantage of an invulnerable save? Just when you get unlucky and they pop a vehicle early, maybe, or in your big, final assault? You don't really have to use the power as often as people think. It's like your entire army has a 3+ invulnerable. The staying power granted by Faith and the BoSL was unrivaled...especially at such low points costs. It's even worse with the Cloak or Celestine. 2+ invulnerables... they just make people mad.

JB_Man wrote:I can see why people would say that. How many times, in a fully mechanised army, do you really need to take advantage of an invulnerable save? Just when you get unlucky and they pop a vehicle early, maybe, or in your big, final assault? You don't really have to use the power as often as people think. It's like your entire army has a 3+ invulnerable. The staying power granted by Faith and the BoSL was unrivaled...especially at such low points costs.

Except that if you're reliably getting 3++ across the board, your army is built of 5-sister squads with Simulacra. And if it's making that much difference to the normal 3+ in assault, you're fighting someone who has cheesed out on power weapons in any case and they're simply irritated that you're getting any save at all. Despite what a lot of folks lamenting the old Faith system have said, it wasn't that reliable - you could try and stack the odds in your favour, but it was still RNG to the Nth degree - unless used on an IC, obviously.

Not to mention that the most effective SoB shooting wounds came from Dominions and common-and-garden BSS squads dumping faith points into Divine Guidance. Remember, unlike the new system, Faith was a heavily limited resource - and the only way to 'regain' it was to largely stop your squads being able to use it.

JB_Man wrote:It's even worse with the Cloak or Celestine. 2+ invulnerables... they just make people mad.

Yeah - I'm pretty sure Dark Eldar players drink the tears of folks who hate T3 ICs with 2++. It was worse when a Canoness was cheesed out with the Mantle of Ophelia. Almost nobody took it, since it wasn't viewed as 'competitive' use of the points - and I've enjoyed the agonised groan of more than one opponent who disregarded it as fluff wargear and thought their DCCW had finally got past Canoness Cassopeia's inconceivably powerful armour, only for me to tick off one wound and say "Well, that's the Mantle gone".

Have the WD now... Honesestly I think most everything has been said... But just in case: anyone have any questions?

(Please keep in mimd dakka doesn't like point values posted, but I can post equivelants... Though, like I said, I think everything is accurate.

Oh, and imo Celestine is a complete bargain for her points...

DarknessEternal wrote: Seraphim are vastly improved. 68% the cost and twice the offense.

until you decide to buy meltapistols at 25 pts each or so. Then its not 68% of the cost.

And no its not twice the offense at 15pts. You lost I 4 and automatic hit and run. And divine guidence.

Mythal wrote:
Except that if you're reliably getting 3++ across the board, your army is built of 5-sister squads with Simulacra. And if it's making that much difference to the normal 3+ in assault, you're fighting someone who has cheesed out on power weapons in any case and they're simply irritated that you're getting any save at all. Despite what a lot of folks lamenting the old Faith system have said, it wasn't that reliable - you could try and stack the odds in your favour, but it was still RNG to the Nth degree - unless used on an IC, obviously.

How often do you really end up firing at battle sisters with AP1 or 2 guns, though, assuming you've gotten them out of their can? Even then, most armies cant bring enough shots to bear to instantly kill a squad through armor saves or cover, at which point the faith power very reliably goes off with the book keeping them from being broken for another couple of turns. Seraphim, of course, were the only unit not in a vehicle and took the majority of shots people didn't direct at rhinos, in my experience. They easily cheese the faith power, however.

Mythal wrote:
Not to mention that the most effective SoB shooting wounds came from Dominions and common-and-garden BSS squads dumping faith points into Divine Guidance. Remember, unlike the new system, Faith was a heavily limited resource - and the only way to 'regain' it was to largely stop your squads being able to use it.

All of the sisters real killing power came for the rending bolters/flamers and exorcists, in my opinion. And you're right, you do end up needing a good bit of faith to do that. But how often do you end up disembarking and shooting something to hell like that? It didn't happen very often for me. By the time faith points might be an issue, a few squads may have gone down and I'd have a little more, anyways. I'm not saying it was infinite or anything, but the powers were very strong and I rarely found myself absolutely hurting for them against most enemies.


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Revarien wrote:Have the WD now... Honesestly I think most everything has been said... But just in case: anyone have any questions?

(Please keep in mimd dakka doesn't like point values posted, but I can post equivelants... Though, like I said, I think everything is accurate.

Oh, and imo Celestine is a complete bargain for her points...

What is the points cost of Death Cult Assassins like? Higher, lower, same? Repentia? If you post some sort of equivalents (basilisk/3.6612? I knew they were useful for something...), I'll figure it out

Mm, I will miss Divine Guidance very, VERY much... I'll admit that to the nth degree. I was playing a game against my mom earlier today, my Sisters - using the WH dex - against her Space Marines. At the top of turn 2, she brutalized 2 SoB squads in melee combat. At the bottom of turn 2, I burned about 6 faith points on Divine Guidance to cook and blast apart Assault Marines, Honor Guard, and a hapless Tactical Squad. AP1 flamer hits from a single flamer alone accounted for 3 Honor Guard. Two squads - Tactical, Honor Guard - had been at full starting strength, and the Assault Squad had been down 3 from their starting strength - lousy dangerous terrain rolls killed those 3. By the end of the turn, after the Seraphim had assaulted the Tactical Squad- and forced them to flee after inflicting 6 casualties in melee - and the rest of my army pretty much shot at those 3 targets, there were 6 models left between the three squads. And I was still at 8 faith points, having lost my Canoness and 2 Veteran Superiors.

Brutal.

Oh, and I just picked up September's WD from my FLGS a little while ago. Already wrote my first list. ^_^ Gonna have to use LOTS of proxies until I can put an order in.

Edit: Typo.

Death Cults are the same as the GK book... Additional repentia are 'additional tactical marine' +1pt. And a whole repentia squad (4 repentia and mistress) are the cost of a marine tact squad

aka_mythos wrote:And this is one reason GW stopped doing these... at best with WD's publication cycle this codex is 2-3 months old before we get to look at it. This means what we're seeing is old, and it is at best 9 or more months of developement out from an actual book. That makes it a very early draft.

People want a new codex and they want GW to be more open about their development... this is GW being more open with development of the new codex, but its incomplete. Its silly to imagine something this far away from an actually being published in book form would be have matured more than this.

Your sentiments underscore why GW stopped doing these WD rules, people want them, until they have them, and then they don't.

Okay, you are correct and your logic just blew the "quickie job, please forgive us" excuse right out of the water. This was deliberate. People want a new codex, they also would like to be informed on the progress towards attaining such a codex. They would also like to hear about any plans for new minis to model. When the US GW distributor has no clue what is coming out before it is published on the GW website, there is a problem. This isn't incomplete, it is gutted from what was on the table 2-3 months ago.

No, Mr "Sounds Like A Shill for GW Crudward", they could have FAQed C:WH in one WD issue. Looking at what they did in the first one, I could have done better in one evening.

aka_mythos wrote:Well that might be a fault of the Grey Hunter and not the SoB... just saying.

Fault trail: A. Codex Writer(s), B. Codex Editor/Reviewer(s) (if any), C. Codex Playtester(s) (if any), D. Game Development Supervisor checking with the 40K design plan (if any), E. GW Management providing oversight.

Since there appears to be exactly zero evidence that B., C. or D. exist, then it falls squarely on the one paying A. for their work. In other words E.

Congrats, you have made me log onto the forum to probably get my post edited and maybe a little time off from the forum, but you seriously need to go buy a truckload of TP for that nose of yours and maybe some crackers for that cheese you are eating.


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Manchu wrote:Yeah. It's hard to understand what the point of this was, other than as part of an attempt to revamp WD.

Dump sale the leftover metal minis give the points cost, pricing and weapon options? By direct order from GW only no less, I could get a discount at my LGS.


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Manchu wrote:Discussion requires courtesy. This is the only warning I'm going to post in this thread before suspending accounts. There have been enough Sisters threads with the exact same culprits for everyone to know what the expectations are: trading personal insults and flamebaiting/flaming are not allowed.

Sorry, too late, I already did it before I read your post, I'll take my punishment officer, it still felt good.

Although I'm not one of the usual suspects in this case...

JB_Man wrote:
Except that if you're reliably getting 3++ across the board, your army is built of 5-sister squads with Simulacra. And if it's making that much difference to the normal 3+ in assault, you're fighting someone who has cheesed out on power weapons in any case and they're simply irritated that you're getting any save at all. Despite what a lot of folks lamenting the old Faith system have said, it wasn't that reliable - you could try and stack the odds in your favour, but it was still RNG to the Nth degree - unless used on an IC, obviously.

Turns out a 7 or 8 model Seraphim squad could pick up a 3++ quite reliably. Helps when you are getting shot at by, oh, say, battlecannons. Or assaulting Demon Princes or Terminators, to showcase some of my favorite moments. The previous Faith system was pretty controllable, unlike the random mess it is now. Unless you take 100+ points in Uriah and Simulacra. It wasn't completely controllable, as I've lost games from failing DG on 10 woman units or 3++ on 4 or 5 woman units.

I'm sure scans will pop up soon. I'm surprised there aren't any already.

The Grog wrote:

JB_Man wrote:
Except that if you're reliably getting 3++ across the board, your army is built of 5-sister squads with Simulacra. And if it's making that much difference to the normal 3+ in assault, you're fighting someone who has cheesed out on power weapons in any case and they're simply irritated that you're getting any save at all. Despite what a lot of folks lamenting the old Faith system have said, it wasn't that reliable - you could try and stack the odds in your favour, but it was still RNG to the Nth degree - unless used on an IC, obviously.

Turns out a 7 or 8 model Seraphim squad could pick up a 3++ quite reliably. Helps when you are getting shot at by, oh, say, battlecannons. Or assaulting Demon Princes or Terminators, to showcase some of my favorite moments. The previous Faith system was pretty controllable, unlike the random mess it is now. Unless you take a 100+ points in Uriah and Simulacra. It wasn't completely controllable, as I've lost games from failing DG on 10 woman units or 3++ on 4 or 5 woman units.

I'm sure scans will pop up soon. I'm surprised there aren't any already.

One of my absolute favorite things use to be assaulting vehicles with them (getting that 6 in charge) and then using their special version of hit and run to bounce out and get further across the board and know they were perfectly safe because of how reliable that 3++ used to be...

algesan wrote:Dump sale the leftover metal minis give the points cost, pricing and weapon options? By direct order from GW only no less, I could get a discount at my LGS.

Conssidering most Sisters models went UP in points cost while still being ridiculously expensive in actual monetary price, this is unlikely to actually succeed.

So...Is there any reason to use BSS anymore? They use to be the core of my army. It seems like they have been marginalized.

One of the things I loved about Sisters was that Troops were the workhorses of the army. Unlike many other armies, we did not have to rely on Elites, FA, or Heavy to do most of the damage. I no longer think that this the case.

Well they are the only troops you can get now so you will have to use at least two. Not sure how many points you can fill with the rest of the slots seeing as elites seem fairly useless.

Ive got my copy of the codex, most of the rumors are true, about most everything.

Celestine is 115

Cannoness 65

Immolator comes standard a heavy flamer, not heavy bolter for 65

Battle sisters cant equip eviserators, not even celestians only HQ and Seraphim.

Heavy Flamers are 20 points, Melta is 10, and we now have combi melta in addition to flamer/plasma for 10

Multi Melta are also 10 points.

Sisters are indeed 125 for a squad of 9+Vet

Both Priest named HQ are 90.

Not including Frag nades, Storm Shield, and Chain Sword, we have a total of 10 pieces of wargear
Blessed Banner
Combi Weapons Plasma/Melta/Flamer
Condemnor Boltgun (str 5 ap -) Psyshock (if it hits directly and wounds on a psyker, it causes perils.)
Eviserator (same)
Laud Hailer (within 12" if a successful faith test is made, roll an additional D6, if the result is a 6, you gain a faith point.)
Neural Whip, str 8 wounds against LD
Rosarius +4 Invul
Simulacrum - Reroll acts of faith

For vehicles
Dozer blade
Extra armor
HK Missile
Inferno bolts (only on heavy bolter, reroll to wound)
Storm Bolter
Searchlight

Kreedos wrote:Ive got my copy of the codex, most of the rumors are true, about most everything.

Celestine is 115

Cannoness 65

Immolator comes standard a heavy flamer, not heavy bolter for 65

Battle sisters cant equip eviserators, not even celestians only HQ and Seraphim.

Heavy Flamers are 20 points, Melta is 10, and we now have combi melta in addition to flamer/plasma for 10

Multi Melta are also 10 points.

Sisters are indeed 125 for a squad of 9+Vet

We always had access to the combi-flamer/melta for 10 points. The plas is new, however. 20 point heavy flamers are just silly, but at 125 points for the basic squad, I guess they just end up costing almost the same as they did before (155 now vs 146 before assuming no book since its not there anymore...). I'm also not quite sure why I would ever want anything that wounds vs leadership...it would be better at just str 4, though I don't see why it couldn't be a str 5 power weapon given that 1 model in the whole army uses those whips.

Isn't 20 what everyone pays? (except blood angels, feth their broken razborbacks)

JB_Man wrote:
We always had access to the combi-flamer/melta for 10 points. The plas is new, however. 20 point heavy flamers are just silly, but at 125 points for the basic squad, I guess they just end up costing almost the same as they did before (155 now vs 146 before assuming no book since its not there anymore...). I'm also not quite sure why I would ever want anything that wounds vs leadership...it would be better at just str 4, though I don't see why it couldn't be a str 5 power weapon given that 1 model in the whole army uses those whips.

I didnt realize we had combi melta, but they were still 15 pts for plasma or melta, and 10 for flamer.

ShumaGorath wrote:Isn't 20 what everyone pays? (except blood angels, feth their broken razborbacks)

Everyone else also gets autocannons, lascannons, missile launchers, etc. When you get the "option" of flamer, melta, or no special weapon, I don't even know why they bother. Squads should just come with them.

JB_Man wrote:

ShumaGorath wrote:Isn't 20 what everyone pays? (except blood angels, feth their broken razborbacks)

Everyone else also gets autocannons, lascannons, missile launchers, etc. When you get the "option" of flamer, melta, or no special weapon, I don't even know why they bother. Squads should just come with them.

I don't get heavy flamers at all and I have to marry that meltagun to a missile launcher. They don't work together. It's not an "option" for me.

ShumaGorath wrote:I don't get heavy flamers at all and I have to marry that meltagun to a missile launcher. They don't work together. It's not an "option" for me.

I'd take that deal. Flamers without rending really aren't that hot, anyways, since all you face are blue, white, silver, red, or <insert your favorite color> marines. It's not like sisters needed help killing Orcs.

JB_Man wrote:

ShumaGorath wrote:I don't get heavy flamers at all and I have to marry that meltagun to a missile launcher. They don't work together. It's not an "option" for me.

I'd take that deal.

You can have it. Sisters are better then tactical marines, straight up. Bar none. Enjoy your 245 point melta and combi in a rhino with a fist. Don't bother modeling on the missile launcher, you won't use it. You gotta take an objective with that squad! I'll be sitting pretty with my heavy flamer, flamer, and combi in a rhino at what? 180? Hell, I'll make it an immolator. I'll finally be able to beat that 200 ork army that's been giving me fits while still being able to deal with paladin spam due to the overwhelming amounts of melta and ap1 missiles im bringing to the table. It sure will be nice to get multiple weapons with similar ranges while not paying for a worthless strength and weapon skill married to a single attack on a 16 point model (guess what. All that stuff you lose to in close combat? Me too) . I won't even have to care about halberds! I'll just lose the squad and not feel so bad since i'll have another one.

It's not like sisters needed help killing Orcs.

Marines sure as hell do (there is no build possible that can beat both orc horde and paladin spam). This is sounding like a great trade so far.

For that prices, sister are pretty nice. They are playable, an kind of sexy... Im slowly liking it, but...

Well, we now just have cheaper, more fragile marines. I will make a sister army, just for the fun... I will just have to realize how i will play without my eyes and kidneys...

Immolators cannot hold SoB squads. And they won't be 180. 125+35+20+10+10=200. And congrats, when you see your SoB squad staring at an enemy Rhino full of tacs (or some better version of tacs) and realizing that barring the low chance of you destroying their Rhino and them failing to destroy yours or them failing pinning, you cannot beat that squad. You cannot even hurt it. They'll come out with at least 6 marines left and you'll be dead.

Hm, thats definitive them: i will stick with Mantic Dwarves and Orcs... not even one more penny to GW...

I haven't said anything in a while