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algesan wrote:

aka_mythos wrote:And this is one reason GW stopped doing these... at best with WD's publication cycle this codex is 2-3 months old before we get to look at it. This means what we're seeing is old, and it is at best 9 or more months of developement out from an actual book. That makes it a very early draft.

People want a new codex and they want GW to be more open about their development... this is GW being more open with development of the new codex, but its incomplete. Its silly to imagine something this far away from an actually being published in book form would be have matured more than this.

Your sentiments underscore why GW stopped doing these WD rules, people want them, until they have them, and then they don't.

Okay, you are correct and your logic just blew the "quickie job, please forgive us" excuse right out of the water. This was deliberate. People want a new codex, they also would like to be informed on the progress towards attaining such a codex. They would also like to hear about any plans for new minis to model. When the US GW distributor has no clue what is coming out before it is published on the GW website, there is a problem. This isn't incomplete, it is gutted from what was on the table 2-3 months ago.

I think that the claim is really running off on a tangent from the real state of affairs. It's true that the Sisters codex is getting a lot of complaints. But the Sisters 'dex doesn't represent a "bold new return to the past" for White Dwarf. If GW felt that Sisters needed an emergency replacement codex of some sort (which is what this essentially represents) then they were going to get it out to players. And the only method that GW has at its disposal to do that is White Dwarf. Or in other words, the Sisters Codex doesn't represent a change in direction in GW's attitude toward White Dwarf. It was going to get printed in WD no matter what.

Now that's not to say that there haven't been some changes that hint at a return to old methods in White Dwarf. Last summer, GW released the rules for the Eldar Nightspinner. And while people argued whether or not it was worthwhile to use Nightspinners (in part because it was yet another item in the woefully overloaded Eldar Heavy Support section), everyone thought that it was great that GW included it in the magazine. Similarly, last month saw the inclusion of a new Vampire Counts monstrous mount. And I'm confident that a lot of people bought the issue just to get the rules for those. So yeah, people do like it when GW puts new rules in White Dwarf.

The problem in this particular case is connected to the current status of Sisters. Sisters - or more accurately Witch Hunters - was a codex that was currently in the game (i.e. it hadn't been Squatted). It was a legal codex that you could use in any game. And now, seemingly for arbitrary reasons that they don't care to share with the rest of us, GW has replaced it with an obviously slapdash stop-gap. This is not a "bonus" item for WD readers. Rather, it's an emergency publication that GW felt that they had to get out.

A "proper" WD codex (and by that I mean one that will draw interest from fans) is one that isn't a rewrite of an existing book. Instead, it's one that supplements an existing army. For instance, a Harlequin Codex is something that might be appropriate for White Dwarf. Or a Genestealer Cult. Those are both armies that exist in the fluff, are related to existing armies, and use existing figures (or easily converted figures), but don't currently exist within the game (though both have existed in the past). Design the lists so that they work, but barely. They're not top-tier armies. They're more for people that want to build thematic armies, and they're not powerful enough to accidentally let something slip through that upsets the balance of the game. That's the kind of army list that should be showing up in the magazine. It's not the place for armies that have their own books - as was the case with Sisters. You want people to think, "Oh, this army list is a neat bonus!" Not, "I bought this magazine so that they could screw over my army? What the Warp!?"

So in summation, White Dwarf should have -

- New items to supplement existing lists like the Eldar Nightspinner and VC Terrorgheist
- Codices that supplement existing armies instead of completely replacing one of the armies that already exists



And finally, GW should have told us why they felt it necessary to implement this sudden update with Sisters. The lack of information coupled with the blatant lack of interest that GW has in selling Sisters figures (i.e. the extra work involved in trying to buy the models) is merely making things worse. What's the worst that can happen if GW were to tell us - the players might complain? I think that's already happening...



One last unrelated item...

On the inside back cover of the August issue of White Dwarf, we were informed that Cruddace would be playing the Sisters as they attempted to retake a Shrine World from an Ork horde. In the September issue (chock full of gorgeous new plastic figures being released for their brand new army list! I'm referring to Ogres, of course... ), Cruddace takes the Sisters and uses them against... a Tyrannid horde (played by Tom Hutchings) attacking a fortress that's being defended by Sisters. Actual details on the playthrough are ridiculously sparse so it's hard to tell what actually happened aside from a couple of highlights (Cruddace's Dominions scored three wounds with twin-linked heavy flamers on Hutchings's Trygon... but the Trygon made all of its saves; Hutchings's genestealer reserves finally arrived on Turn 5 and assaulted a Sister Squad with Uriah Jacobus in cover... and were wiped out).

Of course, given that the August issue mentioned Orks and the actual battle report is against Tyrannids... you'd think that they'd at least take a sentence or two to explain why they're doing a report with Tyrannids instead of Orks? A minor detail, but it would show some professionalism.



Edit - Has Cruddace finally introduced a method to make Eldar Warlocks suffer from "Perils of the Warp" tests via the Condemnor Boltgun?

Eumerin wrote:
Of course, given that the August issue mentioned Orks and the actual battle report is against Tyrannids... you'd think that they'd at least take a sentence or two to explain why they're doing a report with Tyrannids instead of Orks? A minor detail, but it would show some professionalism.



Edit - Has Cruddace finally introduced a method to make Eldar Warlocks suffer from "Perils of the Warp" tests via the Condemnor Boltgun?

There was a bit of an inconsistency in August's WD then, because I was just reading a bit of it today, and in the Sisters dex section of August's WD, they mentioned a battle against Nids, not Orks. I'm not disputing that the back inside cover said Orks, but I'm pretty sure I remember reading Nids at some point in August's WD today. I'll go double-check, since this is a forum and not a chatroom. ^_^

Yup, Page 103, under Saint Celestine's entry.

"Coming Next Month: Sisters of Battle Army List

Next month we present part 2 of the Codex, including everything needed to field the army. We also pitch the Adepta Sororitas against Hive Fleet Leviathan in a battle report."

Back inside cover says:

"Codex: Sisters of Battle Part 2

We present the final part of Codex: Sisters of Battle, including everything you need to field them on the war-ravaged battlefields of Warhammer 40,000. Codex author Robin Cruddace also puts the army through their paces as they try to liberate a shrine world from the clutches of the Orks."

Both quotes from August 2011's issue of White Dwarf.

They're not perfect, the Heavy Bolter/Mulit-melta hybrid is kind of proof of the attention, or lack thereof, they put into things at times.

n0t_u wrote:They're not perfect, the Heavy Bolter/Mulit-melta hybrid is kind of proof of the attention, or lack thereof, they put into things at times.

:: nods :: I prefer to think of it as hapless errors, personally. And I try really hard not to see it as a deliberate affront to the Sisters of Battle army, but I can't get those thoughts to shut up right now, especially when I remember that the background section totaled 4 pages, not counting individual entries for units and the page of army special rules. And two of those were half-pages, with the other half of each page taken up by a spread of a Battle Sisters army.

:: huggles an imaginary Seraphim plush and pets its head gently :: It's okay... It's all gonna be okay... The new dex will be okay... It'll be okay...

It's much harder right now to think, "Yay! New stuff!" because now that I have the WD dex in my possession, it's getting harder and harder as time goes on to see it as new stuff, and not rehashed old stuff. And I've had it for less than 6 hours. In the months or years between now and a proper book - hopefully - I wonder how I'll feel.

I'm sure GW had a reason for printing the WD dex, and it's harder for me to see the reason as being anything other than, "Well, we updated them to 5th edition. Job's a good un!" but I'm often VERY guilty of confirmation bias or whatever it's called where you get an idea in your head of the way things are, and your brain, trying to see its idea as right, remembers what confirms its idea and doesn't remember stuff that might counter it.

I'm now getting a sinking feeling at the thought of spending 400 dollars - taxes included in that - on the 25-30 miniatures I'd need to make my current SoB list without proxies. I'm not sure I'm willing to spend that much on that little, so I definitely see now how price really gets in the way. Cause for that price, I could get 4 maxed-out footslogging Boyz mobs with 8 Nobz left over.

Edit: Ahhh, re-wrote my 1500 point list a little. Without trying too hard to make it all fit, and using units I wanted to use, it came up to exactly 1500 points on the first draft. Best part? The list uses ENTIRELY models I already own, freeing my birthday and miniatures budget moneys for something else entirely. ^_^ Might still get a couple of Sisters minis - I'd love to get an Exorcist just for giggles, it's such a beautiful model.

Pray, pray hard, that we don't see a 6th edition in the next few years with a normal list of new edition codex releases. 'cause if it goes like normal it will take 6 years to get back to Sisters.

The WD with part 2 has been in my mag. shop for ages.

This is probably a silly question, but does anyone know if Battle Sisters squads in the new Codex have the option to take Immolators as a DT?

Difficult terrain? I dont get you!

Dedicated transports, and I'm not sure as it comes out tomorrow here. Very likely to be unable to though.

thenoobbomb wrote:Difficult terrain? I dont get you!

Apologies - Dedicated Transport

Mythal wrote:This is probably a silly question, but does anyone know if Battle Sisters squads in the new Codex have the option to take Immolators as a DT?

I believe they can. Under the Battle Sisters Squad entry, it says under Dedicated Transport options, "The squad can select any dedicated transport (see below)." And immediately beneath that is the Rhino entry and the Immolator entry, both in the Dedicated Transports section.

Admittedly, the Immolator only has a 6-model transport capacity, so at the least, you couldn't deploy your Battle Sisters squad inside it, and can't embark until they take at least 4 casualties, since the Battle Sisters squad starting strength is 10 women.

Pouncey wrote:Admittedly, the Immolator only has a 6-model transport capacity, so at the least, you couldn't deploy your Battle Sisters squad inside it until they take at least 4 casualties, since the Battle Sisters squad starting strength is 10 women.

Oh, you just made my day - thanks!

*Starts point-statting up an infantry-blob SoB force that advances shielded by a vanguard of TL MM hulls*

I'm not buying these points cost rumours posted on the net. No one has even thought to scan an image of the WD issue front cover or something to give the claims some cred.
12 points per model for a basic sister? How can that be when so much has been taken away from them?!
It's pure heresy! (cup of irony, anyone?)

Mythal wrote:

Pouncey wrote:Admittedly, the Immolator only has a 6-model transport capacity, so at the least, you couldn't deploy your Battle Sisters squad inside it until they take at least 4 casualties, since the Battle Sisters squad starting strength is 10 women.

Oh, you just made my day - thanks!

*Starts point-statting up an infantry-blob SoB force that advances shielded by a vanguard of TL MM hulls*

My day was made about 20 minutes ago, when I took my mom's advice from before she went to bed about 7 hours ago, and re-wrote my list to use models that I already have. I came up with a list I like, and it won't cost me a dime. ^_^

Before that, my previous list would have cost me over 400 dollars once taxes were included.

Seems odd you'd be able to spam Immolators more with the update. But as I'm running a mech force anyway it's a good thing.

Cofessor Dallax wrote:I'm not buying these points cost rumours posted on the net. No one has even thought to scan an image of the WD issue front cover or something to give the claims some cred.
12 points per model for a basic sister? How can that be when so much has been taken away from them?!
It's pure heresy! (cup of irony, anyone?)

It's true.

Oh, and a 5-woman Retributor Squad with 4 heavy bolters and no squad leader upgrades costs about 30 points less than an unupgraded Sororitas Command Squad. ^_^ Which was very nice, because the price of their Heavy Bolters dropped to a fraction of their former price.

Meltaguns and Multi-Meltas cost the same price as each other in Battle Sisters Squads now. And you can take a heavy weapon and special weapon, or two special weapons, in Battle Sisters Squads.

Heavy flamers are obscenely expensive in points now, though. They cost 4x the cost of heavy bolters. Almost double what they used to be.

How do I take a screenshot with a webcam? It'd be easier than figuring out how to use the all-in-one printer I use exclusively for printing.

Pouncey wrote:

Mythal wrote:

Pouncey wrote:Admittedly, the Immolator only has a 6-model transport capacity, so at the least, you couldn't deploy your Battle Sisters squad inside it until they take at least 4 casualties, since the Battle Sisters squad starting strength is 10 women.

Oh, you just made my day - thanks!

*Starts point-statting up an infantry-blob SoB force that advances shielded by a vanguard of TL MM hulls*

My day was made about 20 minutes ago, when I took my mom's advice from before she went to bed about 7 hours ago, and re-wrote my list to use models that I already have. I came up with a list I like, and it won't cost me a dime. ^_^

Before that, my previous list would have cost me over 400 dollars once taxes were included.

Just so I'm sure, there's nothing in the new Dex's Dedicated Transport section that says they can only be taken by squads that can fit in them?

Mythal wrote:

Pouncey wrote:

Mythal wrote:

Pouncey wrote:Admittedly, the Immolator only has a 6-model transport capacity, so at the least, you couldn't deploy your Battle Sisters squad inside it until they take at least 4 casualties, since the Battle Sisters squad starting strength is 10 women.

Oh, you just made my day - thanks!

*Starts point-statting up an infantry-blob SoB force that advances shielded by a vanguard of TL MM hulls*

My day was made about 20 minutes ago, when I took my mom's advice from before she went to bed about 7 hours ago, and re-wrote my list to use models that I already have. I came up with a list I like, and it won't cost me a dime. ^_^

Before that, my previous list would have cost me over 400 dollars once taxes were included.

Just so I'm sure, there's nothing in the Dedicated Transport section that says they can only be taken by squads that can fit in them?

Nothing in the WD dex, but I'll check the main rulebook to be sure.

Nope, nothing forbidding it that I can find. ^_^ I'll expect that particular issue to be a bone of contention and included in the FAQ, of course.

Edit: Just checked GW FAQs, and this is a quote from the SPACE MARINE FAQ:

"Q: Some Space Marine squads can take a Razorback as
a dedicated transport. A Razorback has a transport
capacity of six models. Can you still choose this as a
dedicated transport for a squad with more than six
models? (p77)
A: Yes."

So there's at least some precedence, but GW's not always consistent.

Pouncey wrote:I'll expect that particular issue to be a bone of contention and included in the FAQ, of course.

... You just gave me an early Christmas, and then took the presents away

Seriously, though, thanks for the info!

Edit: And then gave them back again!

Mythal wrote:

Pouncey wrote:I'll expect that particular issue to be a bone of contention and included in the FAQ, of course.

... You just gave me an early Christmas, and then took the presents away

Seriously, though, thanks for the info!

I added a nice gem I found to that post in an edit. ^_^

Pouncey wrote:I added a nice gem I found to that post in an edit. ^_^

Thanks for looking into that for me - given me a lot to think about!

Mythal wrote:

Pouncey wrote:I'll expect that particular issue to be a bone of contention and included in the FAQ, of course.

... You just gave me an early Christmas, and then took the presents away

Seriously, though, thanks for the info!

Edit: And then gave them back again!

Yeah, I can be a bit of a tease like that. ^_^

Same, if it sticks I might not end up shelving the army.

Mythal wrote:

Pouncey wrote:I added a nice gem I found to that post in an edit. ^_^

Thanks for looking into that for me - given me a lot to think about!

Mmm, and don't forget that Battle Conclaves, Command Squads, Celestians, Dominions, and Retributors all have identical wording to Battle Sisters Squads in their Dedicated Transport options. ^_^

If ya got the points, that's a LOT of Immolators! Options to take an Immolator transport in literally every FOC slot.

Pouncey wrote:If ya got the points, that's a LOT of Immolators! Options to take an Immolator transport in literally every FOC slot.

Indeed - enough Immolators to form a pretty hefty anti-tank/anti-heavy infantry shield wall obscuring advancing Sister/Battle Conclave blobs.

Well I used to think the Valkarie Vendetta was the most underpriced unit in the game.

Now I'm thinking Celestine is a definate contender!

With her points cost and Jacobus's rules, they are an almost certainty in most armies.

The Decapitator wrote:With her points cost and Jacobus's rules, they are an almost certainty in most armies.

Agreed - the only reason I could think for someone passing up on Celestine would be to unlock a second Battle Conclave. Canonesses are pretty lacklustre by comparison, and their 'Command Squads', even if they come with 3 Multi-Meltas and FNP, aren't going to take the shine off a model that costs as little as Celestine for what she provides in bombastic, jump-pack driven CC death. Additionally, since her weapon doesn't use the Sniper or Poison descriptors, she'll be a great suicide-charge unit in Apocalypse against Gargantuan Creatures.

Mythal wrote:

Pouncey wrote:If ya got the points, that's a LOT of Immolators! Options to take an Immolator transport in literally every FOC slot.

Indeed - enough Immolators to form a pretty hefty anti-tank/anti-heavy infantry shield wall obscuring advancing Sister/Battle Conclave blobs.

Mmhm. ^_^

Personally, I don't like fielding lots of vehicles. Mechanized lists don't work for me. I tried once, I wrote up a 2000 point mechanized Sisters list and an opposing 2000 point mechanized Space Marines list. I had to proxy about 8 Rhinos total using Chaos Rhinos, Whirlwinds, Vindicators, Leman Russes, and any other vehicle of roughly the right size I could get my hands on from my own collection.

The movement phases went much quicker, but I just couldn't get into the game, probably since neither side had very many options for opening up transports at long range, so after turn 2, the game was basically, "Okay, let's just sit here in our transports contesting objectives from each other... You wanna disembark? Nah, I'm comfy. You? Nah, I'm comfy too."

On a side note, a cat just flew by my face and bumped into my forehead at high speed. Why are cats so crazy?


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Mythal wrote:

The Decapitator wrote:With her points cost and Jacobus's rules, they are an almost certainty in most armies.

Agreed - the only reason I could think for someone passing up on Celestine would be to unlock a second Battle Conclave. Canonesses are pretty lacklustre by comparison, and their 'Command Squads', even if they come with 3 Multi-Meltas and FNP, aren't going to take the shine off a model that costs as little as Celestine for what she provides in bombastic, jump-pack driven CC death. Additionally, since her weapon doesn't use the Sniper or Poison descriptors, she'll be a great suicide-charge unit in Apocalypse against Gargantuan Creatures.

Mmm, Celestine... She's only gotten better and cheaper. ^_^

I might re-write my list a bit, take out my 115pt Canoness and her 150pt Command Squad - despite my love of Sisters Hospitaller minis - and add in Celestine - replacing the Canoness - and a Confessor with a Battle Conclave - for the Death-Cult Assassins whos minis I also love... Saint Celestine's mini is also pretty nice. Decisions, decisions, decisions.

Hey look, the night sky is turning a visible shade of blue!

Pouncey wrote:Mmm, Celestine... She's only gotten better and cheaper. ^_^

I might re-write my list a bit, take out my 115pt Canoness and her 150pt Command Squad - despite my love of Sisters Hospitaller minis - and add in Celestine - replacing the Canoness - and a Confessor with a Battle Conclave - for the Death-Cult Assassins whos minis I also love... Saint Celestine's mini is also pretty nice. Decisions, decisions, decisions.

She really is a gorgeous sculpt - one of GWs best, given her age. And she goes so well with Bretonnian pegasus wings.

My HQ choices are pretty much fixed as Uriah with 9 Death Cultists in a Rhino, and Celestine. I may blob her up with a squad of Seraphim (I just love Seraphim too much to ditch them completely, even though the new Dominions are great).

Pouncey wrote:Hey look, the night sky is turning a visible shade of blue!

There's always hope. I mean, I still feel that this Codex was pretty meh - and I'll be raging if we're still using it, with no new model releases, in three years time. But I'm pretty confident there are ways to make it work. And knowing you're playing with an underpowered Codex makes victory over the Big Boys that much sweeter.

Pouncey wrote:On a side note, a cat just flew by my face and bumped into my forehead at high speed. Why are cats so crazy?

Because their purpose is to remind us that, whatever we're doing, it's not as important as paying attention to them. Unless they want to be left alone, in which case you can do your silly 'internet' thing, human.

Can we join Celestine to a Seraphim squad ( in 2nd part i readed that is not a IC ) or they are still " two units move together " ?

I think too that my 2 HQ choices would be Celestine and Uriah+9 cult+rhino.

Some news that prevent repentia mount in a rhino in 2nd part ?

If they can, i will try them in exchange of celestian.