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 Bossk_Hogg wrote:

Strongly disagree on the 15mm issue. That allows for different scales of conflict and more vehicle/artillery oriented. I wouldn't be interested, because 15mm figures are just too damn small for me, but at least it offers something unique.

I would be far more interested in 15 mm if it meant the game was more land vehicle based, but I get that the primary draw here is making models out of iconic characters.

 ProtoClone wrote:
Wargamers: Have game, will complain.

Exalted!

Bossk_Hogg,

Again, there isn't actually a consistent "Imperial Assault scale." But let's say there is one for the sake of argument. The current complaint is that by making the Legion figs in a different scale than IA figs, FFG is greedily forcing us to buy nearly the same thing a second time! OK, what if the scale of Legion figs is the same as IA figs? Basically the same complaint: FFG is greedily forcing us to buy the same thing a second time!

In fact, IA and Legion are different games and product lines. One is not a cross sell into the other. They are not meant to be compatible. They are not meant to be confused with one another. Compatibility actually could be a hazard, considering the rumored rights dispute/rights sharing agreement with Hasbro regarding IA. Moreover, FFG does not like small figures and abandoned Battlelore 2E in part because of this. Based on their experiences with manufacturers, FFG seems to believe that larger miniatures amount to more detail, at least balanced against their other requirements (low complexity assembly, materials, representing iconic characters) and thus a more competitive product vis a vis the wider market of table top gamers and potential table top gamers.

You're never going to make something that will appeal to all fans, all of the time. Especially with something like this, such as Star Wars, where the universe has been around for years and different people take different things, and different types of enjoyment, from it.

This is Storm Troopers and rebel scum blasting away at each other other, Jedi and Sith, walkers and speeders, all in an easily recognisable tabletop format. For 90% that will be enough, and I'm sure the sales volumes will reflect that, regardless of what is said here. For the other 10%,who want everything from small scale to the fan-fic expanded universe that saw Leia decide that she didn't want to strangle Jabba, and married him instead, and started a 5000 year dynasty that saw them take control of all of the spice in the universe, unfortunately this might not scratch that itch. But, at least there is enough other Star Wars stuff out there that you'll be able to find something.

I think the important thing here is for what FFG planned to make of having the license. They could quite easily have released a horse turd of a game with no interesting mechanics or anything distinctive whatsover, and it would have still sold because it's Star Wars. But from what I have read it really does sound like they have made an effort with the design of the game. I don't think there is a person posting here that has witnessed the game and has given it a 'tomato splat' rating. In-between this and Fallout, as well as 40k enjoying something of a renaissance, it looks like being a really bumper year for sci-fi gaming, I can't wait for the end of the year and to seeing what kind of things will arrive.

LOL Pacific, nicely said.

It is interesting to see people comment that Legion has "no gimmick" - is that a complaint or a compliment?

If they HAD done 15mm the comments would likely be that they switched to 15mm to force everyone to rebuy everything..
The starter set isn't crazy expensive.. it comes with a game and miniatures. FFG just released the "essentials" for Runewars and with some dials from 3rd party companies (I linked already in this thread) you absolutely can use other stuff. A guy at the FLGS has been running elves for a while, despite the army only recently releasing.

Basically.. what they've done has at least given an opportunity to possibly make use of what you've got if you're willing to put in a little effort. I understand that some people just refuse to do that but let's not pretend it's going to be impossible to acquire or produce the cards and crap needed to use your units. Maybe the unit numbers won't line up and one or two things just won't make it but.. seriously.. come on..

Let me put it like this.. Why would FFG give a damn if anyone is upset about not getting a whole game for free just recycling their figures? Are they going to lose your business.. of.. not buying their new game? The one you weren't going to buy anyway? I mean.. I just don't follow the logic here.


While not related (yet) there was an interesting reveal from the upcoming SW film. A new Imperial walker that is kinda like an AT-AT and an AT-TE had a baby.

Personally, I'm more worried about the quality and consistency of the new figures.

If they manage some sort of scale consistency in the new Legion figures and have better QA with them, I intend to use them in IA games. Both of the above were major issues with IA in my opinion.

GW is the devil, because when they released Epic, it was made in a different scale so people couldn't use the models they already had. Inquisitor was made in 54mm scale so every marine fan was forced to buy Artemis, instead of using a marine from their collection.

That's how absurd these arguments about Star Wars Legion sound to me. Even if the scale was perfectly in line with Imperial Assault, people would be complaining that they would have to buy the Core set of Legion just to play the game with their IA minis, so cash grab. Or that the dice being different was a cash grab to sell more dice.

Yes, after seeing and playing it at GenCon I think a 15mm or 1/72 scale would have made this an instant buy for me, as that's not a scale I have a game for in my collection. But there's no way that would have made people who are salty about the scale chance feel any different. There would probably just be an argument over how the game was too expensive for tiny, under-detailed 15mm minis.

People reacted with just as much vitriol about Armada.

 AegisGrimm wrote:
GW is the devil, because when they released Epic, it was made in a different scale so people couldn't use the models they already had. Inquisitor was made in 54mm scale so every marine fan was forced to buy Artemis, instead of using a marine from their collection.

That's how absurd these arguments about Star Wars Legion sound to me. Even if the scale was perfectly in line with Imperial Assault, people would be complaining that they would have to buy the Core set of Legion just to play the game with their IA minis, so cash grab. Or that the dice being different was a cash grab to sell more dice.

Yes, after seeing and playing it at GenCon I think a 15mm or 1/72 scale would have made this an instant buy for me, as that's not a scale I have a game for in my collection. But there's no way that would have made people who are salty about the scale chance feel any different. There would probably just be an argument over how the game was too expensive for tiny, under-detailed 15mm minis.

People reacted with just as much vitriol about Armada.

Exalted. I'm starting to think people don't know how to not be outraged anymore..

 insaniak wrote:
I wonder if part of the problem is that the figures are almost the same size.

I'd say that's exactly it. If they were 15mm instead of 28mm, there would be a reason why compatibility was discarded (because halving the scale makes it substantially cheaper to support larger battles with larger vehicles like AT-ATs).

The scale thing is totally superficial. First of all, put it out of your mind that FFG was going to do humanoid figures at a scale smaller than "28mm" (i.e., 32mm). This was already off the table, as far as FFG was concerned. So since the scale was going to be 1/56 or larger, you can pretty much only do IA size (assuming there is such a thing, which is debatable) or larger.

Also, it's Star Wars minis. Other than the gripe about compatibility with IA minis (evidently no one is mad because they can't use all their hordes of Wizards of the Coast or old West End metal minis in Legion, only Imperial Assault ones), it's not like they need to be compatible with anything else. Being slightly larger than 28mm scale is still easily compatible with other generic terrain out there, but its not like any other companies make Star Wars wargame minis or terrain stuff they need to match up with.

15mm figures would be even less compatible with (nearly) all the other the other stuff to be had on the mass market, unless all your Star Wars planets happen look like Western Europe or WWIII America.

Either way you'd have to make your own cool themed terrain.

The gripe about the scale change from IA to SWL --- and not from WOTC and West End stuff --- is likely because those games are both FFG properties and they're both in print.

So IA owners now --- while IA is still in print --- get the benefit of getting to buy the same stormtroopers and other characters all over again when the IA stuff could have been used just as easily. That's what I've heard as a common complaint on BGG at least.

And it's a foolish complaint because even if the size was the same they would still have to buy Legion stuff to play Legion.

But they could also use their IA stuff. What about that don't you get?

Well, it looks like the scale is a wee bit bigger than the 32mm or so miniatures.
That will certainly make for bigger terrain and vehicles.
So we are looking at skirmish games around the model count of Bolt Action with a couple vehicles and a few squads of troops.
I do not expect to see the 6 odd troop squads like 40k can allow (nevermind some 90 Stormtrooper models like Orks).
It is sad since my Terragenisis terrain looks like a shoe-in for Tatooine buildings but at 10 to 15mm scale.
I honestly think the game would have been awesome at 15mm, it is too close to the Imperial Assault scale and is like a needless duplication.

 H.B.M.C. wrote:
But they could also use their IA stuff. What about that don't you get?

What about needing the compinents to play do you not get?

Buying some cards online is much cheaper than buying minis.

Usually.

This is FFG we're talking about and they have a bad habit of making some must have cards for certain minis and a lot of cards no one uses.

If you want to buy cards on ebay broken out of sets and proxy Legion figs with IA figs in friendly games. what's to stop you?

Really don't care since most people just use army lists that print the various stats of the cards.
Unless of course you go all competitive and people want to see the real cards.

Yeah I would certainly play a friendly game against some who wanted to use IA figs.

So, if we're done inventing fictional arguments not made by fictional people who aren't present in order to try and shut down whatever citicisms we don't agree with, how about that topic eh?

So back to senseless griping?

I've seen some nice scratch built terrain out there already. Nice to see that level of excitement this far out.

The Maelstrom's Edge terrain sprue would probably make some compatible stuff too.

Eldarain

I think it really helped that FFG showed up with such great looking demo tables.

Using the MEdge sprue is a great idea. I have always intended to use mine to make some Tatooine buildings. Of course, people have been scratch building SW terrain for years. You can find some great Mos Eisley tables on Lead aadventure forum.

One guy already made a Jeddha themed mat:

http://finiatures.blogspot.de/2017/08/one-day-build-jedha-gaming-mat.html

Yeah, tables were amazing. I really want to do that Endor table at some point. Rob Hawkins built at least 2 of those demo tables, he does a lot of demo tables for Wild West Exodus, super dungeon explore, Malifaux and others. It's worth following his blog, talented guy

https://robhawkinshobby.blogspot.com/2017/08/sisters-and-scenery.html

Posting the board pics here under a spoiler tag, definitely worth seeing



In that second one in particular, think I have realised the key terrain components for identifying a Star Wars board
- Some kind of curved-domed building
- Moisture extraction devices (or whatever those things are with the weather vain things on top, on the desert board)

The search begins!

Those moisture farm machines look to be the same as the ones on the other Tatooine/Desert board.

A sign that maybe FFG is making them?
Though I suppose they could be pre-existing kits from another source that 2 different board builders found and used.

 Talizvar wrote:
Really don't care since most people just use army lists that print the various stats of the cards.
Unless of course you go all competitive and people want to see the real cards.

I live on the US East Coast near Philly and have played X-Wing, Armada, Imperial Assault and Runewars at dozens of stores up and down the coast from Massachusetts to Virginia and then west to Indiana. I've never once seen someone not use the official cards. It's possible that in your neck of the woods that people use printed listed and avoid the cards, but that's definitely not what 'most people' do... at least not in the US. The organized event scene is inherently official and official games require official game components. In other words, if you want to use your IA Stormtroopers, you're going to need a Legion Stormtrooper box to get the unit card and upgrades. Might as well use the Legion Stormtroopers at that point.

Kriswall,

You're right, most people (IME) do use the actual cards - they came with the minis after all. (Plus, for all the complaints about too much clutter, I think many people like the tactility of components.) The notion of using a written out list instead makes sense, however, when you're just proxying stuff you don't have in a friendly game. Near as I can tell, there's really nothing to stop anyone from doing that, using IA figures they already own, if they want to try out Legion before buying.

So the remaining problem would be, what? that you can't use IA figs in Legion organized play? Kind of a "well duh" issue.

 Manchu wrote:
Kriswall,

You're right, most people (IME) do use the actual cards - they came with the minis after all. (Plus, for all the complaints about too much clutter, I think many people like the tactility of components.) The notion of using a written out list instead makes sense, however, when you're just proxying stuff you don't have in a friendly game. Near as I can tell, there's really nothing to stop anyone from doing that, using IA figures they already own, if they want to try out Legion before buying.

So the remaining problem would be, what? that you can't use IA figs in Legion organized play? Kind of a "well duh" issue.

I live in San Diego and I'm not particularly active in the FLGS anymore but here there are definitely people who do not use official minis or even components if it will either a)save them money or b)keep them from having to paint more stuff.. As I said earlier, they've even gone so far as to make RW spinners for units they wanted more of or that haven't been released. I would imagine anyone with a sizeable Wizkids prepaint collection would probably also be interested in the cards for casual play but the point about the official events is spot on.. and even IA stuff would not seem likely to be allowed tbh. That said.. out of the people who have complained.. I'm curious about how many of them a)own IA in the first place, b)plan on playing in official events, c)would have bought this under any other condition (like.. literally what circumstances would they have not complained and just bought the game?). The fake outrage culture is out of hand.