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Leo_the_Rat wrote:
I somehow doubt that a ganger is at the level of anything more than a raw IG recruit and there's almost no way that they should be able to stand up to a Space Marine.

Well, from a skirmish point of view a veteran gang member from necromunda would be equal to a veteran guardsmen. Necromundan regiments were know to be high utility soldiers. As bands of killers they would lack many basic soldier skills but would have learned the principles of killing others before getting killed them selves. Truth is dangerous people are dangerous. Oh, for the record, I think spacemarines are a bit easier to crack than Spyrers so if a spacemarie does desire to take a whack at a Necromunda gang he better bring his friends if he doesn't want to be recycled.

Ganger with plasma, power weapon and melta gun would have no problem blasting through any kind of armor a Guardsman had, even Power Armor. Rich ganger amass wealth and can have much better personal equipments than any IG guardsmen.

Lets use a bit of business logic shall we;

Apparently GW release half yearly numbers, not quarterly, they're probably fairly happy with how this half will end with 3 (maybe more? custodes, DOK, IDK maybe necromunda?) factions alongside model releases all selling incredibly well topped off with a gigantic boost with the imperial knights release.

Id bet they've managed to secure pretty good numbers for all 3 games systems so far this year.

So to balance it, id bet we see KT and the new AOS starter set in early July (maybe pre-orders on the 29th?) to give a massive start to the next year half.

Alternatively, they go AOS for July then go Killteam in august- one big box per month.

Either way, it might be worth looking at how they did the Kharadron stuff alongside 8th ed release and deathguard because i expect the new 40k faction will be released in a similar fashion.

 Insurgency Walker wrote:

Leo_the_Rat wrote:
I somehow doubt that a ganger is at the level of anything more than a raw IG recruit and there's almost no way that they should be able to stand up to a Space Marine.

Well, from a skirmish point of view a veteran gang member from necromunda would be equal to a veteran guardsmen. Necromundan regiments were know to be high utility soldiers. As bands of killers they would lack many basic soldier skills but would have learned the principles of killing others before getting killed them selves. Truth is dangerous people are dangerous. Oh, for the record, I think spacemarines are a bit easier to crack than Spyrers so if a spacemarie does desire to take a whack at a Necromunda gang he better bring his friends if he doesn't want to be recycled.

I don't think there is anything in the fluff that suggest a Spyrer is stronger than a Space marine.

 Oguhmek wrote:
I’d say that Killteam might be a way for GW to release mini-factions, boxes of 10 or so minis, to try out subfactions an brand new stuff without having to release a full army. Remember, GW is a miniature-driven company, and this would be a low risk way of testing the waters with new stuff without having to commit to s full faction release. I think it’s a great idea.

*cough* Squats *cough*

Chopstick wrote:
Ganger with plasma, power weapon and melta gun would have no problem blasting through any kind of armor a Guardsman had, even Power Armor. Rich ganger amass wealth and can have much better personal equipments than any IG guardsmen.

To use an IRL analogy - a rich gang member in the USA might be able to afford a gold-plated Desert Eagle, a full-auto rifle with AP ammo, and a grenade launcher, but unless they take them entirely by surprise I'd still put money on an actual trained soldier with basic equipment tearing them to bits, nevermind if the ganger tried to take on the equivalent of Captain America wearing tank armour with an RPG-machinegun - they'd pish themselves at first sight.

Just because they can filch high tech gear from their House's assembly lines doesn't make them comparable to actual soldiers - Hives like Necromunda make a good recruiting ground for the Guard and Marine chapters, but they still have to actually be trained. Like, the top 1% of gangers might be comparable to a veteran guardsman, but aside from their gear most gangers would be on the level of a conscript that can shoot a bit straighter. The Guard aren't the Guard because they can shoot straight, the Guard are the Guard because they can shoot straight while being charged by thousands of gribbly horrors that want to eat their faces off. A ganger might think they've seen it all because they've gutted a few rival clanners and faced down some weird mutant thingie from the Sump, but put them up against a Carnifex or a mob of Boyz or a Chaos Marine and they'd curl up into a ball and go mad or run away screaming.

 schoon wrote:
*cough* Squats *cough*

I like your thinking

 schoon wrote:
*cough* Squats *cough*

Stop playing with that clock, it's going to fall off the wall again

 Yodhrin wrote:

To use an IRL analogy - a rich gang member in the USA might be able to afford a gold-plated Desert Eagle, a full-auto rifle with AP ammo, and a grenade launcher, but unless they take them entirely by surprise I'd still put money on an actual trained soldier with basic equipment tearing them to bits, nevermind if the ganger tried to take on the equivalent of Captain America wearing tank armour with an RPG-machinegun - they'd pish themselves at first sight.

Unless you can regrow lost piece of your body in an instant, wearing Terminator armor, or have a powerful forcefield. A blast from any plasma shot would still leave a big hole in your body. With the current N17 version, Ganger can now have forcefield, servo skull, pet, which is a league better than any IG guardmen can have. They can have actual useful gear, not bling like gold-plate DE (which is a terrible/mediocre gun IRL)

Also, if some ganger survive long enough in Necromunda to be rich, afford all the gear without getting shot in the back or dagger in the throat while sleeping. That person should give any fighter a run for their money.

I actually think a well trained soldier should (and always) have the element of surprised over the ganger : HQ com, intel, radar and various scanner. In a straight up fight with no prep the risk is too high (plasma shot to the face)

Ganger also lack knowledge of vehicle combat, big scale battle, and xenos.

 streetsamurai wrote:

 Insurgency Walker wrote:

Leo_the_Rat wrote:
I somehow doubt that a ganger is at the level of anything more than a raw IG recruit and there's almost no way that they should be able to stand up to a Space Marine.

Well, from a skirmish point of view a veteran gang member from necromunda would be equal to a veteran guardsmen. Necromundan regiments were know to be high utility soldiers. As bands of killers they would lack many basic soldier skills but would have learned the principles of killing others before getting killed them selves. Truth is dangerous people are dangerous. Oh, for the record, I think spacemarines are a bit easier to crack than Spyrers so if a spacemarie does desire to take a whack at a Necromunda gang he better bring his friends if he doesn't want to be recycled.

I don't think there is anything in the fluff that suggest a Spyrer is stronger than a Space marine.

The Spyer hunting rig, their armor, is way more advanced than the Astartes regular Mks of power armor. Integrated weapon systems, stealth systems, flight systems repair and autonomous upgrades. Looking at the stat lines for the day a novice Spyer is almost the equal of a century old battle brother. An experienced Spyer is short of, say a chapter master in terminator armor, but way more versatile and capable than the average space marine captain.
For the record, Spyer armor was most likely made with Tau, and eldar technology. Even the names line up with Tau suits. Reeks of Heresy.

 Insurgency Walker wrote:

 streetsamurai wrote:

 Insurgency Walker wrote:

Leo_the_Rat wrote:
I somehow doubt that a ganger is at the level of anything more than a raw IG recruit and there's almost no way that they should be able to stand up to a Space Marine.

Well, from a skirmish point of view a veteran gang member from necromunda would be equal to a veteran guardsmen. Necromundan regiments were know to be high utility soldiers. As bands of killers they would lack many basic soldier skills but would have learned the principles of killing others before getting killed them selves. Truth is dangerous people are dangerous. Oh, for the record, I think spacemarines are a bit easier to crack than Spyrers so if a spacemarie does desire to take a whack at a Necromunda gang he better bring his friends if he doesn't want to be recycled.

I don't think there is anything in the fluff that suggest a Spyrer is stronger than a Space marine.

The Spyer hunting rig, their armor, is way more advanced than the Astartes regular Mks of power armor. Integrated weapon systems, stealth systems, flight systems repair and autonomous upgrades. Looking at the stat lines for the day a novice Spyer is almost the equal of a century old battle brother. An experienced Spyer is short of, say a chapter master in terminator armor, but way more versatile and capable than the average space marine captain.
For the record, Spyer armor was most likely made with Tau, and eldar technology. Even the names line up with Tau suits. Reeks of Heresy.

For the record, Spyrer suits were only ever rumoured to be created with Xenotech, and their names don’t match any T’au suits; they sort-of-match some T’au words that are translated with English meanings that sort-of-resemble the overall theme of the suits. Never mind that the most advanced T’au battlesuit, the prototype worn by Shadowsun, is only just on par with an Orrus suit and the T’au have never been shown to have nanotechnology self-repair mechanisms, are only just showing reflecting-shield tech, have no inclination whatsoever towards hand to hand, and would generally prefer to sell a rogue governor some knockoff lasguns than actually let him have their shiny toys, much less collaborate with a bunch of humans on a ‘loyal’ planet thousands of light years away from the furthest extent of their empire, centuries before they even had an empire.
Overall, if there is any xeno influence in the Spyrer suits, it’s much more likely to be an older empire that had at least galaxy-spanning influence, if not galactic reach, possibly one which has already been shown to have absurd hypertechnology and uses both nanites and self-repair on the battlefield, who could have influenced both the T’au language and whatever form of Low Gothic is spoken on Necromunda.
Or the Van Saar make them using their cursed STC as a bribe to keep the few upper-spire types who have found out about it from blabbing to the Adeptus Mechanicus…

Chopstick wrote:

 Yodhrin wrote:

To use an IRL analogy - a rich gang member in the USA might be able to afford a gold-plated Desert Eagle, a full-auto rifle with AP ammo, and a grenade launcher, but unless they take them entirely by surprise I'd still put money on an actual trained soldier with basic equipment tearing them to bits, nevermind if the ganger tried to take on the equivalent of Captain America wearing tank armour with an RPG-machinegun - they'd pish themselves at first sight.

Unless you can regrow lost piece of your body in an instant, wearing Terminator armor, or have a powerful forcefield. A blast from any plasma shot would still leave a big hole in your body.

And if the ganger can actually reform their bowels long enough to shoot that plasma gun in the vague direction of the 7+ foot tall walking tank charging at them out of myth wielding a five foot long roaring chainsaw while unleashing a diaphragm-shaking vox-amplified predator roar and letting rip with a handgun that's exploding dinner plate-sized holes in the surrounding scenery and said ganger's comrades, they might actually be able to put a big hole in the Marine's body, but odds are they'd still be gormlessly standing there widdling themselves when their torso got chewed in half

Now, they might be more confident and trigger happy if facing down mere Imperial Guardsmen, and in their own element(ie jumping out of a slimy shadow in the depths of the underhive to stick a knife in their unsuspecting enemy's spine) they might even be a better fighter 1v1, but considered as a whole in a straight-up fight the soldiers of most Guard regiments would put down even an experienced ganger before they knew what was happening.

Something people need to remember - and this applies to the Spyrers v Marines thing as well - is that the statlines aren't directly comparable between 40K and Necromunda(or WHFB and Mordheim). The 1-10 stats with D6s basis for GW games simply doesn't have enough fidelity to meaningfully distinguish between all the levels of competence between some workaday shlub Administratum office worker and a trained professional soldier while also including stuff like Space Marines and Eldar and superheavy tanks, so everything gets compressed in 40K and that's doubly true since they switched to the X+ method for some stats, but that's not the case in Necromunda. Think about it this way - the whole range of stats in Necromunda represents something like the gap between a Conscript and a Guard Veteran in 40K. Like, maybe an all top-end stats with tons of gear and special rules would be adequate to represent a regular Marine. Maybe. How many gangers could stand against an enemy like that?

Gangs in Necromunda can get all sorts of crazy gear and weapons that your average Guardsmen could only dream of, but they're primarily status symbols. Like some Joe Bloggs who wins the lottery could buy an incredible sports car, that doesn't mean they could beat a professional racecar driver unless you put the latter in a battered old Lada or something.

I fear you credit your standard Guardsman with too much training!

A Veteran, yes. Tempestus Scions, yes. But Guardsman Bob? About the only difference between us and them is they've actually been told which end of the Lasgun is which - we just had to work it out for ourself.

That wouldn't be Guardsman Bob, that would be Conscript Bob.

As much as people love to meme them, the normal Guardsmen, like Cadian guardsmen, are all of them highly trained soldiers with very good equipement (Its only "bad" in comparison with the rest of the setting)

I think the best way to incorporate the gangers would be to write them off as 'recruited hive gang regiments'. They have had training, at least.

I mean, we're arguing things like this but GW has Tyranid Kill-Teams... just saying.

I imagine that a lot of the training for Necromundan PDF and inducted Astra Militarum regiments involves getting them to all shoot at the enemy, and not at the other squad because that sergeant was a rival gang leader, and to get them to all do what they're told, when they're told to do it, all at once.

The implication from the Armageddon fluff is that gang fighters are better than standard conscripts, and can basically be recruited straight into the IG. I suspect this is not entirely true, because however lethal a gang fighter is in one-on-one and small skimishes, working together as a disciplined team is the most important part of soldiering.

Gang fighters probably need no combat training, just training in team work, discipline and following orders. I don't see their morale as being especially worse than the majority of other Guardsmen when facing the horrors of the Galaxy- the underhive is already shown to basically be a death world beneath the hive.

Basically, I think only juves would be equivalent to conscripts, and most gangers would be equivalent to guardsmen (with minimal additional training). I doubt many would be better than that.

 Yodhrin wrote:

Chopstick wrote:

 Yodhrin wrote:

To use an IRL analogy - a rich gang member in the USA might be able to afford a gold-plated Desert Eagle, a full-auto rifle with AP ammo, and a grenade launcher, but unless they take them entirely by surprise I'd still put money on an actual trained soldier with basic equipment tearing them to bits, nevermind if the ganger tried to take on the equivalent of Captain America wearing tank armour with an RPG-machinegun - they'd pish themselves at first sight.

Unless you can regrow lost piece of your body in an instant, wearing Terminator armor, or have a powerful forcefield. A blast from any plasma shot would still leave a big hole in your body.

And if the ganger can actually reform their bowels long enough to shoot that plasma gun in the vague direction of the 7+ foot tall walking tank charging at them out of myth wielding a five foot long roaring chainsaw while unleashing a diaphragm-shaking vox-amplified predator roar and letting rip with a handgun that's exploding dinner plate-sized holes in the surrounding scenery and said ganger's comrades, they might actually be able to put a big hole in the Marine's body, but odds are they'd still be gormlessly standing there widdling themselves when their torso got chewed in half

Now, they might be more confident and trigger happy if facing down mere Imperial Guardsmen, and in their own element(ie jumping out of a slimy shadow in the depths of the underhive to stick a knife in their unsuspecting enemy's spine) they might even be a better fighter 1v1, but considered as a whole in a straight-up fight the soldiers of most Guard regiments would put down even an experienced ganger before they knew what was happening.

Something people need to remember - and this applies to the Spyrers v Marines thing as well - is that the statlines aren't directly comparable between 40K and Necromunda(or WHFB and Mordheim). The 1-10 stats with D6s basis for GW games simply doesn't have enough fidelity to meaningfully distinguish between all the levels of competence between some workaday shlub Administratum office worker and a trained professional soldier while also including stuff like Space Marines and Eldar and superheavy tanks, so everything gets compressed in 40K and that's doubly true since they switched to the X+ method for some stats, but that's not the case in Necromunda. Think about it this way - the whole range of stats in Necromunda represents something like the gap between a Conscript and a Guard Veteran in 40K. Like, maybe an all top-end stats with tons of gear and special rules would be adequate to represent a regular Marine. Maybe. How many gangers could stand against an enemy like that?

Gangs in Necromunda can get all sorts of crazy gear and weapons that your average Guardsmen could only dream of, but they're primarily status symbols. Like some Joe Bloggs who wins the lottery could buy an incredible sports car, that doesn't mean they could beat a professional racecar driver unless you put the latter in a battered old Lada or something.

Space Marines are vastly overrated. They're (relatively) mass produced propaganda weapons. Read some Abnett books for a reasonable look at how well they fare against rich (heretical) weirdos with money to burn on expensive weapons. Marines are scary but they're hardly that OTT. And the necromunda stats are comparable to 40k. Just compare Necro Ogryn vs 40k Ogryn, for example.

Zachectomy wrote:

 Yodhrin wrote:

Chopstick wrote:

 Yodhrin wrote:

To use an IRL analogy - a rich gang member in the USA might be able to afford a gold-plated Desert Eagle, a full-auto rifle with AP ammo, and a grenade launcher, but unless they take them entirely by surprise I'd still put money on an actual trained soldier with basic equipment tearing them to bits, nevermind if the ganger tried to take on the equivalent of Captain America wearing tank armour with an RPG-machinegun - they'd pish themselves at first sight.

Unless you can regrow lost piece of your body in an instant, wearing Terminator armor, or have a powerful forcefield. A blast from any plasma shot would still leave a big hole in your body.

And if the ganger can actually reform their bowels long enough to shoot that plasma gun in the vague direction of the 7+ foot tall walking tank charging at them out of myth wielding a five foot long roaring chainsaw while unleashing a diaphragm-shaking vox-amplified predator roar and letting rip with a handgun that's exploding dinner plate-sized holes in the surrounding scenery and said ganger's comrades, they might actually be able to put a big hole in the Marine's body, but odds are they'd still be gormlessly standing there widdling themselves when their torso got chewed in half

Now, they might be more confident and trigger happy if facing down mere Imperial Guardsmen, and in their own element(ie jumping out of a slimy shadow in the depths of the underhive to stick a knife in their unsuspecting enemy's spine) they might even be a better fighter 1v1, but considered as a whole in a straight-up fight the soldiers of most Guard regiments would put down even an experienced ganger before they knew what was happening.

Something people need to remember - and this applies to the Spyrers v Marines thing as well - is that the statlines aren't directly comparable between 40K and Necromunda(or WHFB and Mordheim). The 1-10 stats with D6s basis for GW games simply doesn't have enough fidelity to meaningfully distinguish between all the levels of competence between some workaday shlub Administratum office worker and a trained professional soldier while also including stuff like Space Marines and Eldar and superheavy tanks, so everything gets compressed in 40K and that's doubly true since they switched to the X+ method for some stats, but that's not the case in Necromunda. Think about it this way - the whole range of stats in Necromunda represents something like the gap between a Conscript and a Guard Veteran in 40K. Like, maybe an all top-end stats with tons of gear and special rules would be adequate to represent a regular Marine. Maybe. How many gangers could stand against an enemy like that?

Gangs in Necromunda can get all sorts of crazy gear and weapons that your average Guardsmen could only dream of, but they're primarily status symbols. Like some Joe Bloggs who wins the lottery could buy an incredible sports car, that doesn't mean they could beat a professional racecar driver unless you put the latter in a battered old Lada or something.

Space Marines are vastly overrated. They're (relatively) mass produced propaganda weapons. Read some Abnett books for a reasonable look at how well they fare against rich (heretical) weirdos with money to burn on expensive weapons. Marines are scary but they're hardly that OTT. And the necromunda stats are comparable to 40k. Just compare Necro Ogryn vs 40k Ogryn, for example.

Abnett does a lot of great stuff, his version of Space Marines do not qualify. I mean seriously, I don't know how it's possible to "vastly overrate" a 7+ foot tall genetically engineered superhuman that can shatter a human's ribcage with a backhand, not only survive but keep fighting after having entire limbs blown off, with the reflexes of a champion gymnast, encased in powered armour that can reliably withstand anti-tank weaponry and which further enhances their strength, wielding weapons specifically designed to cause maximum terror among lesser troops. The limitation on Space Marines was always supposed to be "there aren't many of them", not Abnett's neutered versions that only ever show up to make the protagonists look good - his Marines are every bit as bad as the caricature "bumbling cowards with flashlights" version of the Guard used by the shoddier Marine fiction writers.

I think its maybe relevant to also mention that Astartes seem to produce an nascent dread in humans and similar organics. Its mentioned several times in the novels and lore.
Regardless of stats, the first thing the gangers have to do is rally and overcome that 'trans-human dread' i think it's called.

 streetsamurai wrote:
I don't think there is anything in the fluff that suggest a Spyrer is stronger than a Space marine.

Fluff, don't know. Rules...a maxed out Orrus swipes the floor with Tactical Marines in Oldcrowmunda. Straight 2E 40K and both have stats in the big book.

 Mr_Rose wrote:

 Insurgency Walker wrote:

 streetsamurai wrote:

 Insurgency Walker wrote:

Leo_the_Rat wrote:
I somehow doubt that a ganger is at the level of anything more than a raw IG recruit and there's almost no way that they should be able to stand up to a Space Marine.

Well, from a skirmish point of view a veteran gang member from necromunda would be equal to a veteran guardsmen. Necromundan regiments were know to be high utility soldiers. As bands of killers they would lack many basic soldier skills but would have learned the principles of killing others before getting killed them selves. Truth is dangerous people are dangerous. Oh, for the record, I think spacemarines are a bit easier to crack than Spyrers so if a spacemarie does desire to take a whack at a Necromunda gang he better bring his friends if he doesn't want to be recycled.

I don't think there is anything in the fluff that suggest a Spyrer is stronger than a Space marine.

The Spyer hunting rig, their armor, is way more advanced than the Astartes regular Mks of power armor. Integrated weapon systems, stealth systems, flight systems repair and autonomous upgrades. Looking at the stat lines for the day a novice Spyer is almost the equal of a century old battle brother. An experienced Spyer is short of, say a chapter master in terminator armor, but way more versatile and capable than the average space marine captain.
For the record, Spyer armor was most likely made with Tau, and eldar technology. Even the names line up with Tau suits. Reeks of Heresy.

For the record, Spyrer suits were only ever rumoured to be created with Xenotech, and their names don’t match any T’au suits; they sort-of-match some T’au words that are translated with English meanings that sort-of-resemble the overall theme of the suits. Never mind that the most advanced T’au battlesuit, the prototype worn by Shadowsun, is only just on par with an Orrus suit and the T’au have never been shown to have nanotechnology self-repair mechanisms, are only just showing reflecting-shield tech, have no inclination whatsoever towards hand to hand, and would generally prefer to sell a rogue governor some knockoff lasguns than actually let him have their shiny toys, much less collaborate with a bunch of humans on a ‘loyal’ planet thousands of light years away from the furthest extent of their empire, centuries before they even had an empire.
Overall, if there is any xeno influence in the Spyrer suits, it’s much more likely to be an older empire that had at least galaxy-spanning influence, if not galactic reach, possibly one which has already been shown to have absurd hypertechnology and uses both nanites and self-repair on the battlefield, who could have influenced both the T’au language and whatever form of Low Gothic is spoken on Necromunda.
Or the Van Saar make them using their cursed STC as a bribe to keep the few upper-spire types who have found out about it from blabbing to the Adeptus Mechanicus…

That's why I said made with Tau and eldar tech. (Guess could be Necron?) They used crystals in some of their equipment and eldar/ dark eldar tech could cover some of the shields tech. Direct trade with the Tau, no. But I don't think it's a coincidence that the names are variations used by the Tau. Some other common link? It's a mystery, and I hope it stays that way.





Automatically Appended Next Post:

Neronoxx wrote:
I think its maybe relevant to also mention that Astartes seem to produce an nascent dread in humans and similar organics. Its mentioned several times in the novels and lore.
Regardless of stats, the first thing the gangers have to do is rally and overcome that 'trans-human dread' i think it's called.

Trans human dread eh? Just like when the gangers decide it would be fun to boost an Eldars diplomats ride for a quick run around the ash waste, or the following encounter with an irate Farseer,


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Another way to look at the comparison of guard to Necromundian hanger is think of the gangs as the PDF of the Under-hive. The history of the imperial guard is filled with regiments who stood fast defending their homeworld from all sorts xenos threats from Orks to Alien empires prior to an IG founding. The core of a Necromunda gangers life is functionally that of a squad level trooper, employing squad level tactics and strategies for offenses, defense and reconnaissance. Compare the founding of a regiment from Tanith, where the average conscript was a farmer(if I remembered correctly), to a conscript from the underhive whom was raised in a world of perpetual violence. The real sticking point is what would a Necromunda gang be doing on a kill team type mission off of Necromunda? The answer is easy, surviving exile as an outlaw gang working for whomever could get them off the spire. Cause being outlawed sucks donkey balls.

 Insurgency Walker wrote:
The real sticking point is what would a Necromunda gang be doing on a kill team type mission off of Necromunda? The answer is easy, surviving exile as an outlaw gang working for whomever could get them off the spire. Cause being outlawed sucks donkey balls.

"Today, wanted by the Inquisition, they survive as soldiers of fortune. If you have a problem, if no one else can help, and if you can find them, maybe you can hire... the N-Team."

 Yodhrin wrote:
Abnett does a lot of great stuff, his version of Space Marines do not qualify. I mean seriously, I don't know how it's possible to "vastly overrate" a 7+ foot tall genetically engineered superhuman that can shatter a human's ribcage with a backhand, not only survive but keep fighting after having entire limbs blown off, with the reflexes of a champion gymnast, encased in powered armour that can reliably withstand anti-tank weaponry and which further enhances their strength, wielding weapons specifically designed to cause maximum terror among lesser troops. The limitation on Space Marines was always supposed to be "there aren't many of them", not Abnett's neutered versions that only ever show up to make the protagonists look good - his Marines are every bit as bad as the caricature "bumbling cowards with flashlights" version of the Guard used by the shoddier Marine fiction writers.

I have read his Brothers of the Snake. I wouldn't call any of the space marines depicted there as overrated, myself.

Leo_the_Rat wrote:
I somehow doubt that a ganger is at the level of anything more than a raw IG recruit and there's almost no way that they should be able to stand up to a Space Marine.

It's problematic...

One could argue that the underhive is a uniquely harsh environment which also has easy access to archeotech and high end manufacturing making the Necromunda ganger a well-honed killing machine with well-made gear.

OR that they're a bunch of malnourished, diseased morons with guns made out of garbage.

Basically it's a question of who's starring in the story.

Batman can always beat Superman, as long as it's in his own comic

I used to run Necromunda campaigns with Orks.

Copious quantities of Orks. As NPCs for purge missions. To say that I disagreed with the "back of the big 'ol book" conversion rate for 40k stuff is an understatement - It was nonsense. You have to keep Strength and Toughness, as they're based largely on how hard bits of technology hit, but that was about it.

My starting assumption was that a Hive Ganger could generally be recruited straight into the PDF with minimal training and a whole lot of discipline, probably involving commissars. Also a lot of work teaching people to shoot weapons at distances of over about 50m, on the basis that the Underhive is so congested that you'll rarely get to fire further than that. Hardened hive gangers are going to be more skilled, and more savage, than the majority of the PDF recruits looking for a life beyond the factory floor, and this also means that sending the PDF in to gang territory is by no means a one sided fight for the troopies - they're well equipped and disciplined, but up against folk who are equally skilled but with home turf advantage.

So troopers rocked up with a Lasgun, Lasspistol, knife, Flak, BS 4, WS 4, Marksman, Rapid Fire and a few other skills. Definitely better than raw gangers, but not by a huge amount.

This is where you have to decompress the 40k stats. So I worked on the basis that S and T, and possibly I, were OK but that 40k BS/WS 3 equated to Necromunda BS/WS 3-5, 40k BS/WS 4 equated to Necro BS/WS 6-8 and 40k BS/WS 5+ equated to Necro BS/WS 9. So a Marine would likely be BS/WS 8, while a really veteran guardsman would be BS/WS 6.

This worked OK, but the real kicker was skills. Marines got heaps of them. Orks got every skill which made them harder to kill, plus ferocity. That seemed to put it on about the right power level - anything from outside the underhive would be horrific to face.

I don't think Necromunda is representative of hive worlds and gangers across the Imperium either. Necromunda is a survivor of the Age of Strife, and controlled an interstellar empire prior to being brought into compliance (and then nearly destroyed by some unknown xenos). It actually probably had a larger population prior to these events than it does now- the entire planet was a city, not just the surviving hives. The planet is also based in Segmentum Solar and has remained important since the Great Crusade. It seems to have one of the highest populations in the entire Imperium.

Therefore I reckon Necromunda has a hell of a lot more access to rare and esoteric equipment than most hive worlds even, as it has equipment predating the Great Crusade hidden in the depths of the hives and beneath the ash wastes, and the noble houses are especially influential. This technological prowess has manifested in Necromunda producing some very advanced gear of the kind typically associated with forge worlds, like plasma weaponry. It stands to reason that Necromunda also has unusually heavily-armed gangers too. Necromunda is almost like a deregulated minor forge world.

Contrast this with Armageddon, another massive Segmentum Solar hive world which is known for producing Chimera and Leman Russ based vehicles, and autoguns (and probably lasguns). None of that is especially advanced by Imperial standards, they are mass-produced stuff for the Imperial Guard/PDFs. There is no indication they have the complex web of advanced industries found on Necromunda, with a multitude of advanced chemicals, high-powered weaponry and technical gear like the Van Saar hacker noodles.

Something worthy of note is how the current edition is handling gangs for necromunda. These aren't just naturally formed gangs, these are effectively deniable house enforcers with largely free reign over what they do.

That gives a lot more leeway in supply and ability than 'ooh look I found a stubber and I'm a gang now' than people assume.

 Albertorius wrote:

 Yodhrin wrote:
Abnett does a lot of great stuff, his version of Space Marines do not qualify. I mean seriously, I don't know how it's possible to "vastly overrate" a 7+ foot tall genetically engineered superhuman that can shatter a human's ribcage with a backhand, not only survive but keep fighting after having entire limbs blown off, with the reflexes of a champion gymnast, encased in powered armour that can reliably withstand anti-tank weaponry and which further enhances their strength, wielding weapons specifically designed to cause maximum terror among lesser troops. The limitation on Space Marines was always supposed to be "there aren't many of them", not Abnett's neutered versions that only ever show up to make the protagonists look good - his Marines are every bit as bad as the caricature "bumbling cowards with flashlights" version of the Guard used by the shoddier Marine fiction writers.

I have read his Brothers of the Snake. I wouldn't call any of the space marines depicted there as overrated, myself.

Ah, good point!

I know many don't like that story, but I rather do like it, and it certainly shows the power of a single Space Marine - certainly!

Chopstick wrote:
With the current N17 version, Ganger can now have forcefield, servo skull, pet, which is a league better than any IG guardmen can have.

Well guardmen can have basilisk tank, ganger can't beat basilisk tanks as cool wargear can they .