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I'm currently facing a bit of a moral dilemma at the moment. I only have one other person to play with while I'm away at collage and he's a BA player. so I herped and derped and thought that "hey he plays BA no way he could screw up." then I actually watched him play a game. he was absolutely honest all those times he said that he was no good at 40k, and did I believe him, NO. now I feel kind of bad using my semi-competitive necrons against his jankey BA. I don't want to spend money changing my necrons around, but I've got a DE army sitting in their boxes back at home (once again it was a case of "OMG 6th edition NERF!" fear.) I was wondering if I should switch to DE when I play him to give him a handicap and kind of even our our skill levels, or should I just give him the school of necron hard knocks until he gets better?

As i have said before NOPE.
You cant teach playing good, no matter how mant articles you read, how much advice you are given, you can only win by the skin of your teef.
If you let the guy win, he will start going to tourneys thinking he is hot, when he is not.

Yes, you should take a handicap.

If you play two games against him and utterly destroy him, then he's not going to want to play anymore, and neither of you will be playing 40k for awhile. To say that the only way he's going to get better is if you absolutely destroy him is asinine. I'd like to see a school system based on that model...

There are lots of ways that you can take handicaps. Switching armies to a less powerful one is one way, and so is taking lower-powered lists from your codex. There are other ways, though, including taking a straight-up points handicap, or making up missions that are favorable to your opponent.

The correct way to help him get better is to make it so that every game is really close, and that he wins slightly more than half the time. That will keep his interest up, which will cause him to show up for lesson after lesson. In each game, do something that's a real teaching moment. If your opponent doesn't get why he should put his upgrades at the back of the squad, you can have a game where you kill off the upgrades of one or two of his squads, for example.

Because if you try and make him learn all the lessons at once, and take a thorough shellacking while doing it, he's just going to get discouraged and quit playing altogether. The trick, then, is to find a way to still make it fun for you. I suggest playing the game as hard as you possibly can, but to pile on handicaps to make it more difficult.

You will certainly get more of a challenge (and thus fun) by playing a game with a 50% points deficit to a draw than you will by playing an even game and winning without any real challenge. It will be more fun for your opponent too.

oh he's not going to tourneys, plus I just don't feel challenged enough playing him. it's like clubbing a baby seal, he just can't fight back. so if I can't change opponents I'll make it harder on myself to at least derive some satisfaction from my games.

I would recommend taking more of a battle report mindset to your games. Take some pictures, jot down major things that happen. Then after the game you can talk about mistakes made on both sides.

At the end of the day it's a game, and outside of a competitive tournament it's about having fun, getting your butt whooped all the time is not fun. If this guy is the only person you can play with I would make it enjoyable for the both of you or you'll have no one to play with. I think those people that say no are the social outcasts of this game and is their FLGS's TFG.

Just don't do the secret handicap thing. Be honest, give him an extra 250 points, and hack it out.

Or dick around. Select lists with glaring tactical holes. Leave yourself open to exploiting lack of troops, for instance. Force him to find what makes the army weaker.

Sometimes just giving a handicap may make your opponent just feel worthless rather than encouraged.

Bring your DE army from home and then take turns playing each army to include switching armies between you both. Take a turn as his BA. Maybe he can learn from you and who knows maybe in playing one of the other armies he may find he picks up on that one's style better? But yeah curb stomping someone just leads to less and less or no more games to be had there.

 yeri wrote:
I'm currently facing a bit of a moral dilemma at the moment. I only have one other person to play with while I'm away at collage and he's a BA player. so I herped and derped and thought that "hey he plays BA no way he could screw up." then I actually watched him play a game. he was absolutely honest all those times he said that he was no good at 40k, and did I believe him, NO. now I feel kind of bad using my semi-competitive necrons against his jankey BA. I don't want to spend money changing my necrons around, but I've got a DE army sitting in their boxes back at home (once again it was a case of "OMG 6th edition NERF!" fear.) I was wondering if I should switch to DE when I play him to give him a handicap and kind of even our our skill levels, or should I just give him the school of necron hard knocks until he gets better?

Depend what kind of player he is, I don't mind losing personally, and I'm a terrible player too, so I lose a lot, but I'd hate to be playing someone who's going easy on me because I suck at this game.

As for "OMG 6th edition NERF!" on DE, well, it's just a reform, everything got a bit of a shuffled, the initial panic is gone and most DE have adopted to the 6th ed quite well. Unless you ran WWP, then may god have mercy on your soul.

Maybe switch armies next time, let him play your necrons and you play his BA.

 yeri wrote:
I'm currently facing a bit of a moral dilemma at the moment. I only have one other person to play with while I'm away at collage and he's a BA player. so I herped and derped and thought that "hey he plays BA no way he could screw up." then I actually watched him play a game. he was absolutely honest all those times he said that he was no good at 40k, and did I believe him, NO. now I feel kind of bad using my semi-competitive necrons against his jankey BA. I don't want to spend money changing my necrons around, but I've got a DE army sitting in their boxes back at home (once again it was a case of "OMG 6th edition NERF!" fear.) I was wondering if I should switch to DE when I play him to give him a handicap and kind of even our our skill levels, or should I just give him the school of necron hard knocks until he gets better?

He's never going to learn if you go easy on him. You don't need to be in power gamer mode, but it isn't necessary to go easy.

Play as you normally would but give him hints and tips as you play if he is about to make a big mistake or doesnt see an obvious move. If you play bad on purpose and he notice this I doubt any of you will enjoy the game, but if you play good and help him out you both are going to enjoy the game.
Maybe you should also use this oppurtunity to try new things with your Necrons?

 Ailaros wrote:
Yes, you should take a handicap.

If you play two games against him and utterly destroy him, then he's not going to want to play anymore, and neither of you will be playing 40k for awhile. To say that the only way he's going to get better is if you absolutely destroy him is asinine. I'd like to see a school system based on that model...

There are lots of ways that you can take handicaps. Switching armies to a less powerful one is one way, and so is taking lower-powered lists from your codex. There are other ways, though, including taking a straight-up points handicap, or making up missions that are favorable to your opponent.

The correct way to help him get better is to make it so that every game is really close, and that he wins slightly more than half the time. That will keep his interest up, which will cause him to show up for lesson after lesson. In each game, do something that's a real teaching moment. If your opponent doesn't get why he should put his upgrades at the back of the squad, you can have a game where you kill off the upgrades of one or two of his squads, for example.

Because if you try and make him learn all the lessons at once, and take a thorough shellacking while doing it, he's just going to get discouraged and quit playing altogether. The trick, then, is to find a way to still make it fun for you. I suggest playing the game as hard as you possibly can, but to pile on handicaps to make it more difficult.

You will certainly get more of a challenge (and thus fun) by playing a game with a 50% points deficit to a draw than you will by playing an even game and winning without any real challenge. It will be more fun for your opponent too.

Excellent, spot on advice here.

 Eldarain wrote:
I would recommend taking more of a battle report mindset to your games. Take some pictures, jot down major things that happen. Then after the game you can talk about mistakes made on both sides.

This. Crush him with all your might, that he may see how to do so himself, and afterward, sit and discuss the game and any adjustments that may be made over a couple beers and football.

hotsauceman1 wrote:You cant teach playing good

TheCaptain wrote:Crush him with all your might

Inquisitor Ehrenstein wrote:He's never going to learn if you go easy on him.

This point of view makes no sense to me whatsoever.

It would be like teaching your child to swim by throwing him in the deep end and then shouting to everyone nearby "he's never going to learn if someone helps him".

It's, at best, it's sadistic, and not even the most efficient or effective way to teach anybody anything. Instead, you should teach people things by teaching people things. That's the best way he's going to learn, not by some machismo display of repeated thuggery.

 yeri wrote:
I'm currently facing a bit of a moral dilemma at the moment. I only have one other person to play with while I'm away at collage and he's a BA player. so I herped and derped and thought that "hey he plays BA no way he could screw up." then I actually watched him play a game. he was absolutely honest all those times he said that he was no good at 40k, and did I believe him, NO. now I feel kind of bad using my semi-competitive necrons against his jankey BA. I don't want to spend money changing my necrons around, but I've got a DE army sitting in their boxes back at home (once again it was a case of "OMG 6th edition NERF!" fear.) I was wondering if I should switch to DE when I play him to give him a handicap and kind of even our our skill levels, or should I just give him the school of necron hard knocks until he gets better?

Need to gauge what kind of person he is. Sounds like he has been playing a bit, losing a lot, but still playing. So he has the committment to play even though losing. I know I would rather lose than know that the only reason I won was because my opponent gimped himself. I don't want charity wins. I want real games. Cut back on the points levels so you can't include your entire competitive necrons force at once. That will take some of the punishment out of them and make for more balanced games. Switch armies for a game or two and show him what he can do with his Blood Angels.

I am guessing if he is a terrible player with little tactical sense, even switching to Dark eldar isn't going to change the situation much. Solid advice over the table in an even game is more useful than gimping your army so that they can win. Play a few games strictly as learning experiences. When he makes a boneheaded move talk about it and explain how a different move would be much more effective. Teach him and help him get better.

Ultimately the best answer is to TALK to your opponent. Ask him how he feels about it all. Explain that you were concerned and didn't want to make things unfun for him, or offend him either. Let him have an upfront say in whether *he* has a problem with losing more often than not or if he wants to lessons, or is content with the way he plays just as long as he gets to play. Don't make the decision on your own since he is part of the game, he should be part of the decision.

Skriker

90% of 40k play is a Friendly play enviroment ( or at least it should be , it is a damn game about pushing little army guys around a play mat ) and should be conducted as such.

If your buddy ASKS you to not take it easy on him and crush him at every turn , so he may learn, so be it, he asked for it and it may be how he likes to learn...

If he wants to hang out and have fun with you ( his buddy), and maybe can't give you a run for your money..then play missions/scenarios based on not just wiping each other out, switch armies, do fun stuff to make it enjoyable and still help him become a better player instead of you feeling you have to PLAY DOWN to his level.

He's your buddy, so always remember that, and this is a game, help him get better at it and who knows a few months down the line he may have to give you a handicap to feel like he is not rolling your armies.

WAAC to teach a buddy is usually a good way to lose that friend or at least make him lose interest in playing.

If he wants to eventually play tournaments then by all means do whatever, otherwise keep it fun and light.

Just stick to the rules and leave the WAAC mentality at the door.

A good gaming buddy is a priceless commodity.

thanks, after crunching the numbers I realized my DE army isn't complete, and it would cost as much to finish the DE army as it would to re-tool the necrons. I'm just wondering: what are some non competitive necron builds? because I'm thinking of doing a foot-cron army with the only vehicles being two monoliths.

I'm nowhere near an expert on necron, but perhaps some tomb spiders? having tons of easily-killable regenerating scarab swarms will certainly help him feel like he's doing something, even if, strategically, he is not. Losing a game where you blew 100 of your opponents models off the board is always cooler than losing a game where you scarcely killed anything.

yeah as Ailaros said give the guy some stuff he can kill, and be careful of the Monoliths, unless he has stuff that can pop one, they can register pretty high on the frustration meter.

Just ease up the volume dial as he learns, eventualy you can pull out all the gouda ya want and hopefully he can hand some back.

Good luck.

Think of it as a challenge to play at a handicap. I don't mean to necessarily do something like play at a lower points value than him or anything, just take some less than optimal units. You'll get to try out something new and (hopefully) fun, and he'll have something he might be able to take out.

 Ailaros wrote:

hotsauceman1 wrote:You cant teach playing good

TheCaptain wrote:Crush him with all your might

Inquisitor Ehrenstein wrote:He's never going to learn if you go easy on him.

This point of view makes no sense to me whatsoever.

It would be like teaching your child to swim by throwing him in the deep end and then shouting to everyone nearby "he's never going to learn if someone helps him".

It's, at best, it's sadistic, and not even the most efficient or effective way to teach anybody anything. Instead, you should teach people things by teaching people things. That's the best way he's going to learn, not by some machismo display of repeated thuggery.

This I have to disagree with. You should never hold back when playing someone as it makes the fight pointless for both parties. it's pointless for yourself as you are not growing as a player and the same goes for your opponent as if you hold back or don’t play your best then his/her victory is hollow and means nothing other than that they're able to beat someone who isn't trying. Over the course of the game the player hasn’t learnt anything such as target priority if you keep feeding them easy kills or positioning if you keep yourself in the line of fire on purpose. You should give your friend as much help as he needs to get better such as talking, discussing tactics, list options etc. but you should never hold back in game. Talk to him and find out what the source of his problem is and help him overcome it

As for the comparison above……that’s just ludicrous. Teaching someone through a display of tactics and power is nothing close to throwing an infant into a pool and waiting till it learns how to swim

Definitely. Exploiting your friend's lack of knowledge about a game in order to win is petty and sadistic. It's something a 6 year old would do.

 Testify wrote:
Definitely. Exploiting your friend's lack of knowledge about a game in order to win is petty and sadistic. It's something a 6 year old would do.

no one's suggesting that you beat him to feed your ego and "exploit his lack of knowledge" for an easy win, it's so that he can take something away from the game and reflect on what he did wrong. You can do this together with him so that he can learn from his mistakes and become stronger by doing so. Trust me, after building up a fantastic losing streak when I first started a good few defeats and some time to reflect on them was exactly what I needed to turn my game around rather than patting myself on the back over a few games I was allowed to win.

Going easy on someone is not the same as letting them win.

Best piece of advice I can give is to beat him, then give him as much constructive advice you can about how he should play differently to beat you next time. He's not going to learn if you go easy on him, he's also not going to learn if you pound on him and don't tell him what he's doing wrong. The other best piece of advice is to be polite about both the winning and the advice, mishandling either is a good way to get him pisses, so be calm and rational about the whole thing and back off if he gets mad.

 AnomanderRake wrote:
Best piece of advice I can give is to beat him, then give him as much constructive advice you can about how he should play differently to beat you next time. He's not going to learn if you go easy on him, he's also not going to learn if you pound on him and don't tell him what he's doing wrong. The other best piece of advice is to be polite about both the winning and the advice, mishandling either is a good way to get him pisses, so be calm and rational about the whole thing and back off if he gets mad.

forgot to say this and I couldn't agree more. If you beat him be sure that he knows he was beaten by a friend and a gentleman

 DPBellathrom wrote:


This I have to disagree with. You should never hold back when playing someone as it makes the fight pointless for both parties. it's pointless for yourself as you are not growing as a player and the same goes for your opponent as if you hold back or don’t play your best then his/her victory is hollow and means nothing other than that they're able to beat someone who isn't trying. Over the course of the game the player hasn’t learnt anything such as target priority if you keep feeding them easy kills or positioning if you keep yourself in the line of fire on purpose. You should give your friend as much help as he needs to get better such as talking, discussing tactics, list options etc. but you should never hold back in game. Talk to him and find out what the source of his problem is and help him overcome it

As for the comparison above……that’s just ludicrous. Teaching someone through a display of tactics and power is nothing close to throwing an infant into a pool and waiting till it learns how to swim

Yup. This, 100%.

It's not dropping him into a pool to drown; no harm is caused to him by lack of success. (As long as it's accompanied with advice and good coaching). I'd compare it more to dropping an english-speaker in a foreign country to learn the language. They say this is the best way to pick up the language/dialect of an area, followed closely by Rosetta Stone. Nothing is bad about the slow, handicapped, step-by-step nature of Rosetta Stone; the former is just more practical and realistic.

I get stomped regularly by my friends and I'm happy they don't go easy on me.

I'd be upset if they ever "throw" a game to make me feel good.

"Going easy" is someone sending 9 Screamers of Tzeentch at 5 Raptors. "Doing it right" is sending those 9 Screamers into 10 Terminators and making them go to sleep.

Nothing wrong with winning like that. Maybe next time he will learn to kill the Screamers instead of shooting at other units.

Sometimes I like to talk aloud as I play, so people standing nearby watching can understand what's going on as well as my opponent. Most of the times, it helps. There is one player who is.... I don't want to say hopeless.. He *seems* incapable of grasping the game.. but dammit I try anyways. I have stopped helping him during the game, and now I only offer advice after we play.