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BaronIveagh wrote:
It must be nice to have had such a sheltered upbringing. My parents started teaching me to shoot when I was six.

And I have golden medal for sharpshooting and license for a pistol and carbine. I also lived trough 3 wars in my lifetime, 1 revolution and second worst inflation in history ( after German one ). Sheltering eh? You are from US right? Just remember when was the last time Americans fell war and destruction in their homeland before asking Europeans that question.

BaronIveagh wrote:
Wow, either you think we're all like you and have no grasp of how to use weapons, lay traps, set up an ambush, or handle and produce improvised explosives without looking it up on the internet.

No, I am just thinking that we are normal Human beings who are totally inferior to 8 feet tall superhuman who can tear rough tank armor like knife trough butter. We can use weapons, traps etc... but against armored marines or Terminators that is useless.

Sadly, no it's not. While it has superior dependability and is easily recharged, it's not 100% accurate (according to both fluff and game rules) and one thing that never seems to come up is that as a laser it's potency s a weapon goes to pot in rain, dust,fog, snow or any other sort of atmospheric condition beyond cool, dry air. 7.62 Nato has no such issues. Ever wonder why IG vets use shotguns? This is why. The reason IG get them has nothing do do with stopping power, etc, it has to do with lines of supply. Since a lasgun powerpack as a long lifespan, fewer of them must be transported from forgeworlds to the front.

We dabated in several threads and conclusion was that Lasgun is better, not by stooping power ( it doesen't need stopping power when it creates mini-plasma explosion on impact that can blow up limbs in one shot at unarmored target ) but by it's all other characteristics. I never heard that Lasgun have strong recoil ( since it is light and light don't have mass ) nor that light depends on conditions like rain, dust etc...

BaronIveagh wrote:
Again, kid with poison knife kills SM captain in Souldrinkers. Ogryns can beat them to death. In Nightbringer, some die to mortar fire from rebel PDF. You grotesquely underestimate modern weapons.

So? Draigo raised entire city by himself in Warp. Beat countless Grater Daemons again and again. Grimdalus have entire building crash at him and he still get out unharmed, Calgar beat Avatar of Khaine with single blow from his fist. You clearly underestimate the Astartes skill and superiority.

Brother Coa wrote:
And what do we have to fight a Battle Barge? They can just bomb us into oblivion until we surrender.

I would recommend any number of powerful anti satellite weapons or your friendly neighborhood ICBM.

But the Cadians, Elysians and Krieg live a lifetime of war before joining the IG anyway. That's not exactly a fair comparison.

Brother Coa wrote:

Gorskar.da.Lost wrote:
That was unintentionally hilarious of you.
IG have the same level of training generally as a modern soldier, dude. I'd say the average professional soldier easily had the same in-game stats as a Guardsmen.

No, Guard is taking the best that certain planet has to offer and then trained them a little more to be Guardsmen.
Meaning that bet of US army would be in IG while the rest would remained in Earth PDF.

The US army is actually less well trained than several other military forces, thus displaying that you know very little about the military of Earth.
Also, nope. As Durza just pointed out, Guardsmen suffer from various issues in terms of training that modern armies don't have, such as the overdependence on higher-ups in command.
Though this isn't the case for all regiments, there's enough of it going around to make an IG regiment somewhat less flexible than a modern army.


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Brother Coa wrote:

So? Draigo raised entire city by himself in Warp. Beat countless Grater Daemons again and again. Grimdalus have entire building crash at him and he still get out unharmed, Calgar beat Avatar of Khaine with single blow from his fist. You clearly underestimate the Astartes skill and superiority.

Guy who complains about how much he hates Mat Ward's fluff in other threads claims that it represents SM abilities in others.
Also, the one bit of fluff that isn't Wardian there is something you've not reported correctly, unless Grimaldus coming out of that ruin more dead than alive counts as "unharmed" to you.

Gorskar.da.Lost wrote:
The US army is actually less well trained than several other military forces, thus displaying that you know very little about the military of Earth.

I know very well that you don't have to insult peopel around you know, I wanted to study military history so this is offensive. I just pointed out an US military as basic example of modern military standard. I know that Russian or Chinese or French Legion would kick their b*** every day.

Also, nope. As Durza just pointed out, Guardsmen suffer from various issues in terms of training that modern armies don't have, such as the overdependence on higher-ups in command.
Though this isn't the case for all regiments, there's enough of it going around to make an IG regiment somewhat less flexible than a modern army.

True, but note that some Guard Regiments are raised from age of 1 to be solders, and great number of them are professional troops - not conscripts.
And you are right, Guardsman are trained even harder because their enemy are not just Humans - but alien races. And that gives them an edge against us because they are also trained to kill non-Human opponents that are superior to them ( like Orks or Chaos Space Marines ).

Gorskar.da.Lost wrote:
Guy who complains about how much he hates Mat Ward's fluff in other threads claims that it represents SM abilities in others.
Also, the one bit of fluff that isn't Wardian there is something you've not reported correctly, unless Grimaldus coming out of that ruin more dead than alive counts as "unharmed" to you.

As much as I hate it it is also part of official canon recognized by many 40k fans. If one guy can alone level down entire city then what weapon we have that can bring him down?
And as far as i know Grimdalus was fine, he just said: "I fell like not dying yet".

IMo guardsmen training is more akin to WW1 level than modern day level. I don't see why they would waste so much time training the guardsmen when the combat life expectancy is minuscule.

Durza wrote:But the Cadians, Elysians and Krieg live a lifetime of war before joining the IG anyway. That's not exactly a fair comparison.

So? My nation alone had 8 wars in just last 100 years on our soil, Israel to had many wars since it is founded and has some of the best weapons and trained troops in the world.
We also had their counterparts, we only had to search. That doesn't mean that we can kill Astartes as easy as we can kill a pig with a sledgehammer like some peopel here are pointing out.
Sure, we can kill Astartes using just knife, the problem is actually doing that to 8 foot tall superhuman.

Brother Coa wrote:

Gorskar.da.Lost wrote:
Guy who complains about how much he hates Mat Ward's fluff in other threads claims that it represents SM abilities in others.
Also, the one bit of fluff that isn't Wardian there is something you've not reported correctly, unless Grimaldus coming out of that ruin more dead than alive counts as "unharmed" to you.

As much as I hate it it is also part of official canon recognized by many 40k fans. If one guy can alone level down entire city then what weapon we have that can bring him down?
And as far as i know Grimdalus was fine, he just said: "I fell like not dying yet".

He wasn't. In the codex, it's described as him only just holding onto life, and that he would have succumbed had it taken any longer for him to escape.


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Brother Coa wrote:

Durza wrote:But the Cadians, Elysians and Krieg live a lifetime of war before joining the IG anyway. That's not exactly a fair comparison.

So? My nation alone had 8 wars in just last 100 years on our soil, Israel to had many wars since it is founded and has some of the best weapons and trained troops in the world.
We also had their counterparts, we only had to search. That doesn't mean that we can kill Astartes as easy as we can kill a pig with a sledgehammer like some peopel here are pointing out.
Sure, we can kill Astartes using just knife, the problem is actually doing that to 8 foot tall superhuman.

The point of the thread was "what can kill" not "How easy can you kill."
Admittedly, some of the claims have been hilarious, but the fact still stands that SM are not as invulnerable as is being made out.
Sure, Draigo could kick the arse of every singe Green Beret ever and still have time for a nice scone with jam, but he's a special character of a particularly feared band of arse-breakers.
How are his or Calgar's abilities as humanoid wrecking balls representative of the average marine?

Brother Coa wrote:
And I have golden medal for sharpshooting and license for a pistol and carbine. I also lived trough 3 wars in my lifetime, 1 revolution and second worst inflation in history ( after German one ). Sheltering eh? You are from US right? Just remember when was the last time Americans fell war and destruction in their homeland before asking Europeans that question.

No. I know the little flag shows US, and I did start out there, but I've been a hell of a lot more places then that (and, as a matter of fact, am not there right now). Your little flag looks like Serbia, but it's hard to tell, and they are nto that accurate anyway. Congrats on your marksmanship. Can you do it when your eyes and mouth (and gun and hair and clothes) are full of that gritty concrete dust from the artillery falling short? I know it messes me up. You've survived wars. Woopdy fething doo. So have a lot of people at this point I know when I stop to think about it, I'm amazed I'm still alive, myself.

I'll grant you're in worse shape economically, but not nearly as bad as some places. You want people who are really screwed, try Southeast Asia sometime. Or Africa.

Brother Coa wrote:
No, I am just thinking that we are normal Human beings who are totally inferior to 8 feet tall superhuman who can tear rough tank armor like knife trough butter. We can use weapons, traps etc... but against armored marines or Terminators that is useless.

Nobody is immortal. Some just take more killing then others. Saying 'We can't win' is a self fulfilling prophecy. A little det cord and a likely ruin and you have dead termies just like you have dead tanks. You'll probably lose a few guys drawing them in, but 'mere men' can do it. (BTW: this apparently happened in fluff, if you read the Killing Ground. A full squad of marines taken out by a building collapsing on them.)

Brother Coa wrote:
We dabated in several threads and conclusion was that Lasgun is better, not by stooping power ( it doesen't need stopping power when it creates mini-plasma explosion on impact that can blow up limbs in one shot at unarmored target ) but by it's all other characteristics. I never heard that Lasgun have strong recoil ( since it is light and light don't have mass ) nor that light depends on conditions like rain, dust etc...

No one must have had any idea how lasers work then. All those things diffuse the beam and increase bloom, which reduces it's effectiveness.

Brother Coa wrote:
So? Draigo raised entire city by himself in Warp. Beat countless Grater Daemons again and again. Grimdalus have entire building crash at him and he still get out unharmed, Calgar beat Avatar of Khaine with single blow from his fist. You clearly underestimate the Astartes skill and superiority.

No, I just point out that all of those have what's called contractual immortality because GW wants to sell minis of them. It's better to use the unnamed non-main character as your yardstick. Thy can actually die in the books.

Brother Coa wrote:
Great, and what will you do against Astartes Space Fleet? Point lasers at them?

No, I was thinking ball bearings, actually. Ball bearings moving at orbital velocities, but ball bearings none the less.




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Brother Coa wrote:
Sure, we can kill Astartes using just knife, the problem is actually doing that to 8 foot tall superhuman.

One would like to think that if a little kid can do it, it must not be that hard. And they're only seven foot if the chart at FW is to be believed. Meaning they got a foot on me.


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Brother Coa wrote:
So? My nation alone had 8 wars in just last 100 years on our soil,

And your nation started or caused at least 3 of them, so...

ifStatement wrote:IMo guardsmen training is more akin to WW1 level than modern day level. I don't see why they would waste so much time training the guardsmen when the combat life expectancy is minuscule.

That is wrong information. They are trained depending on a planet, some will never invest in it's Guard units then several weeks of training. Some will train it's solders their whole life.
And Guard use different strategy depending on situation and enemy at hand.

Modern day strategies are basically hit and run, air strike with artillery after that follows column of tanks and infantry. That strategy is good against today's millitaries and braking down enemy hard points. While it is great against say Eldar or Chaos Heretics it is next to useless against Orks or Tyranids who are horde army's. So the Guard by using WW1 strategies against Orks ( who are working ) and modern strategies against enemy like Tau.


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Gorskar.da.Lost wrote:
The point of the thread was "what can kill" not "How easy can you kill."
Admittedly, some of the claims have been hilarious, but the fact still stands that SM are not as invulnerable as is being made out.

This is what I am referring to, some points made here were hilarious. It turns out that i can kill a Marine with spoon if I have a luck.
I agree the fact is that Marine can die easy sometimes, even Daemon princes and Grater Daemons are dying easy sometimes. Question is just how hard would it be to implement that wound. And that is what I am trying to prove, that as much as it easy to kill it it is hard to do so.

Space marines are definitely killable. There is no disputing that. But they are also head and shoulders above normal humans. In almost any balanced encounter, the space marines are going to come out on top, they are much tougher and deal more damage than a standard human.

BaronIveagh wrote:
No. I know the little flag shows US, and I did start out there, but I've been a hell of a lot more places then that (and, as a matter of fact, am not there right now). Your little flag looks like Serbia, but it's hard to tell, and they are nto that accurate anyway. Congrats on your marksmanship. Can you do it when your eyes and mouth (and gun and hair and clothes) are full of that gritty concrete dust from the artillery falling short? I know it messes me up. You've survived wars. Woopdy fething doo. So have a lot of people at this point I know when I stop to think about it, I'm amazed I'm still alive, myself.

You are talking like surviving wars is everyday's thing...and you talk cold about that. You must be a solder on a tour of duty or something like that right? Well you can't really compare me since I have been a kid when that happened, and I have just saw all that including the drooping of Fuel Air Bomb some 3km from my house. It shaken the entire city and the explosion was glorious... Thanks for congratulates, people said that guns really suit me. Haven't been to the war myself ( even if I wanted to ), I see that you clearly had and so what? Your eyes and mouth full of that gritty concrete dust from the artillery falling short are a lot batter then having your body part blow away or getting shot in the stomach and die slowly. But I don't think that kind of story is for this site for normal people to read...

I'll grant you're in worse shape economically, but not nearly as bad as some places. You want people who are really screwed, try Southeast Asia sometime. Or Africa.

Of course there are worst places then our country right now, thank God for that. But you should see early 1990's on Balkan, it was as worse as any today's active war zone. No wait - it was worse since it was civil war + ethnic cleansing from all sides.

BaronIveagh wrote:
Nobody is immortal. Some just take more killing then others. Saying 'We can't win' is a self fulfilling prophecy. A little det cord and a likely ruin and you have dead termies just like you have dead tanks. You'll probably lose a few guys drawing them in, but 'mere men' can do it. (BTW: this apparently happened in fluff, if you read the Killing Ground. A full squad of marines taken out by a building collapsing on them.)

I didn't say that mere men can't do it. I am saying that it is not as easy as you are describing it. And so what if building collapsed on Marines squad and killed them? One single Tau Fire Warrior killed a Lord of Change himself, but that doesen;t mean that single Guardsmen could kill it that easily to.

BaronIveagh wrote:
No one must have had any idea how lasers work then. All those things diffuse the beam and increase bloom, which reduces it's effectiveness.

So? Sand and mud in rifle reduce her effectiveness but it can still shoot.

BaronIveagh wrote:
No, I just point out that all of those have what's called contractual immortality because GW wants to sell minis of them. It's better to use the unnamed non-main character as your yardstick. Thy can actually die in the books.

That's right, GW said so. Adn GW said so that Space Marines are Mankind greatest warriors, steel and doom. That doesn't;t mean that they are immortal - but they are as hard to kill as hell.
They way you described for killing Marine could work only if marine stand still and let me have a shot witch is hilarious to even think about. The most realistic thing I saw in this thread was .50 caliber sniper, Abrams shot, A-10 Thunderbolt and RPG-7 direct hit. But taking a knife and slicing his throat is just hilarious for me to imagine.

BaronIveagh wrote:
No, I was thinking ball bearings, actually. Ball bearings moving at orbital velocities, but ball bearings none the less.

Either way - we lose.

BaronIveagh wrote:
One would like to think that if a little kid can do it, it must not be that hard. And they're only seven foot if the chart at FW is to be believed. Meaning they got a foot on me.

That was a special occasion, in one of our own movie a men grabs molotov cocktail and destroy a tank with it by simply throwing it to the front armor. That doesn't mean that tank coudl be destroyed that way. That marine trusted that child and as a result of drooping it's defense he was killed - I could kill Navy Seal that way to.

BaronIveagh wrote:
And your nation started or caused at least 3 of them, so...

Actually, we caused 6 of them - what to say we love to fight it is in our blood
At least we are not stealing Oil from other countries by using democracy as cover story.


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BaronIveagh wrote:
No. I know the little flag shows US, and I did start out there, but I've been a hell of a lot more places then that (and, as a matter of fact, am not there right now). Your little flag looks like Serbia, but it's hard to tell, and they are nto that accurate anyway. Congrats on your marksmanship. Can you do it when your eyes and mouth (and gun and hair and clothes) are full of that gritty concrete dust from the artillery falling short? I know it messes me up. You've survived wars. Woopdy fething doo. So have a lot of people at this point I know when I stop to think about it, I'm amazed I'm still alive, myself.

You are talking like surviving wars is everyday's thing...and you talk cold about that. You must be a solder on a tour of duty or something like that right? Well you can't really compare me since I have been a kid when that happened, and I have just saw all that including the drooping of Fuel Air Bomb some 3km from my house. It shaken the entire city and the explosion was glorious... Thanks for congratulates, people said that guns really suit me. Haven't been to the war myself ( even if I wanted to ), I see that you clearly had and so what? Your eyes and mouth full of that gritty concrete dust from the artillery falling short are a lot batter then having your body part blow away or getting shot in the stomach and die slowly. But I don't think that kind of story is for this site for normal people to read...

I'll grant you're in worse shape economically, but not nearly as bad as some places. You want people who are really screwed, try Southeast Asia sometime. Or Africa.

Of course there are worst places then our country right now, thank God for that. But you should see early 1990's on Balkan, it was as worse as any today's active war zone. No wait - it was worse since it was civil war + ethnic cleansing from all sides.

BaronIveagh wrote:
Nobody is immortal. Some just take more killing then others. Saying 'We can't win' is a self fulfilling prophecy. A little det cord and a likely ruin and you have dead termies just like you have dead tanks. You'll probably lose a few guys drawing them in, but 'mere men' can do it. (BTW: this apparently happened in fluff, if you read the Killing Ground. A full squad of marines taken out by a building collapsing on them.)

I didn't say that mere men can't do it. I am saying that it is not as easy as you are describing it. And so what if building collapsed on Marines squad and killed them? One single Tau Fire Warrior killed a Lord of Change himself, but that doesen;t mean that single Guardsmen could kill it that easily to.

BaronIveagh wrote:
No one must have had any idea how lasers work then. All those things diffuse the beam and increase bloom, which reduces it's effectiveness.

So? Sand and mud in rifle reduce her effectiveness but it can still shoot.

BaronIveagh wrote:
No, I just point out that all of those have what's called contractual immortality because GW wants to sell minis of them. It's better to use the unnamed non-main character as your yardstick. Thy can actually die in the books.

That's right, GW said so. Adn GW said so that Space Marines are Mankind greatest warriors, steel and doom. That doesn't;t mean that they are immortal - but they are as hard to kill as hell.
They way you described for killing Marine could work only if marine stand still and let me have a shot witch is hilarious to even think about. The most realistic thing I saw in this thread was .50 caliber sniper, Abrams shot, A-10 Thunderbolt and RPG-7 direct hit. But taking a knife and slicing his throat is just hilarious for me to imagine.

BaronIveagh wrote:
No, I was thinking ball bearings, actually. Ball bearings moving at orbital velocities, but ball bearings none the less.

Either way - we lose.

BaronIveagh wrote:
One would like to think that if a little kid can do it, it must not be that hard. And they're only seven foot if the chart at FW is to be believed. Meaning they got a foot on me.

That was a special occasion, in one of our own movie a men grabs molotov cocktail and destroy a tank with it by simply throwing it to the front armor. That doesn't mean that tank coudl be destroyed that way. That marine trusted that child and as a result of drooping it's defense he was killed - I could kill Navy Seal that way to.

BaronIveagh wrote:
And your nation started or caused at least 3 of them, so...

Actually, we caused 6 of them - what to say we love to fight it is in our blood
At least we are not stealing Oil from other countries by using democracy as cover story.

Coa old chap, I do believe you've missed the point there.
The point is not that SM heroes doing ridiculous things is somehow less valid than other fluff, but that they are not representative of the abilities of the average marine.
The average SM could no more punch an Avatar of Khaine to death in a single blow than he could fly like Superman. That is the kind of SM we would most likely be encountering here.

That;s the point Gorskar my lad.
Not every Marine can kill the strongest monsters and do incredible things, and not every Human being can kill a Space Marine.

Just because some solder with sniper could do doesn't mean that I could or you or any other non-military person.

Indeed so old fruit.
However, I was under the impression that we were discussing the abilities of our professional soldiers here, or have I missed something?

blazinpsycho&typhooni wrote:Still don't know why this thread is still going on...

ANYTHING can kill a space marine, it's the tactics, methods, and situations that determine whether or not they will actually succeed.

A pointy stick could slice the throat of a marine if they're helmetless, don't have errant armour (with the neck guard), and being swarmed by hundreds upon thousands of savages. (read First Heretic).

There armour is no doubt impressive but they all have their faults, pretty sure non marines are told to aim for the joints when facing sphez marines.

They aren't invincible, but they're pretty close.

Slit their throat and their larraman cells are going to stop the bleeding right away. Unless you penetrate deep, which would be quite difficult considering Know No Fear states that they are "As tall as a tall man on another tall man's shoulders".

Im under the same impression as Gorska.

And what about a chainsaw? CSM kill SM with chain swords so why cant a basketball player (same height as a SM) kill one with a chain saw?

IHateNids wrote:Im under the same impression as Gorska.

And what about a chainsaw? CSM kill SM with chain swords so why cant a basketball player (same height as a SM) kill one with a chain saw?

Because Basketball players are infinitely weaker (and average basketball player ~7 foot, marines 6" taller or more), chainswords are made from sturdier metal and have a monomolecular edge, chainswords would have considerably more potent engines, and because even chainswords struggle against PA.

Gorskar.da.Lost wrote:Indeed so old fruit.
However, I was under the impression that we were discussing the abilities of our professional soldiers here, or have I missed something?

I am glad that we agreed on that
If you see OP you could see that there is no mention of solder or civilian on description. Just a simple question: what our modern day weapon can kill an Astartes?
Answer is simple: many weapons can kill them. But them people started stating that even civilians could kill them easily and that just irritated me.
They wouldn't call them Angels of Death if they are that easy to kill, yeah they are Human - but superhuman at that. A living gods of war, instrument of his will, Mankind righteous fury...
And they deserve that praising very well with all the enemy they are fighting and deeds they are doing. Telling that ordinary men can kill them with a knife is kind insulting...
And I completely agree that professional solders could kill them, but not before losing a lot of troops to achieve that.

Brother Coa wrote:

Gorskar.da.Lost wrote:Indeed so old fruit.
However, I was under the impression that we were discussing the abilities of our professional soldiers here, or have I missed something?

I am glad that we agreed on that
If you see OP you could see that there is no mention of solder or civilian on description. Just a simple question: what our modern day weapon can kill an Astartes?
Answer is simple: many weapons can kill them. But them people started stating that even civilians could kill them easily and that just irritated me.
They wouldn't call them Angels of Death if they are that easy to kill, yeah they are Human - but superhuman at that. A living gods of war, instrument of his will, Mankind righteous fury...
And they deserve that praising very well with all the enemy they are fighting and deeds they are doing. Telling that ordinary men can kill them with a knife is kind insulting...
And I completely agree that professional solders could kill them, but not before losing a lot of troops to achieve that.

"to take a town, send a legionary, to take a city, send a squad, to take a world, send a company, to take a culture, send a chapter"

Although that would be referring to the enemies of mankind during the crusade, so inflate that a bit to account for weaker modern weapons.

Brother Coa wrote:

Gorskar.da.Lost wrote:Indeed so old fruit.
However, I was under the impression that we were discussing the abilities of our professional soldiers here, or have I missed something?

I am glad that we agreed on that
If you see OP you could see that there is no mention of solder or civilian on description. Just a simple question: what our modern day weapon can kill an Astartes?
Answer is simple: many weapons can kill them. But them people started stating that even civilians could kill them easily and that just irritated me.
They wouldn't call them Angels of Death if they are that easy to kill, yeah they are Human - but superhuman at that. A living gods of war, instrument of his will, Mankind righteous fury...
And they deserve that praising very well with all the enemy they are fighting and deeds they are doing. Telling that ordinary men can kill them with a knife is kind insulting...
And I completely agree that professional solders could kill them, but not before losing a lot of troops to achieve that.

Well, it'd be a bit useless to spend years raising a single applicant to full SM status if he was easy to kill, it's gotta be said.

im2randomghgh wrote:
Slit their throat and their larraman cells are going to stop the bleeding right away. Unless you penetrate deep, which would be quite difficult considering Know No Fear states that they are "As tall as a tall man on another tall man's shoulders".

You do realize that makes them taller then a land raider, right? They'd be squeezing in like a clown car. I'll stick with FW's seven foot. It seems more likely and the scale matches up better.

And it doesn't matter if it stops the bleeding right away. That fast clotting would actually act against them in this situation because the blood that has gotten into their lungs would kill them by clotting, effectively choking them to death. Larraman cells are fast, not instantaneous, clotting.

Brother Coa wrote:
You are talking like surviving wars is everyday's thing...and you talk cold about that. You must be a solder on a tour of duty or something like that right? Well you can't really compare me since I have been a kid when that happened, and I have just saw all that including the drooping of Fuel Air Bomb some 3km from my house. It shaken the entire city and the explosion was glorious...

Thankfully not anymore. Though I miss the paychecks. (Or what occasionally passed for a paycheck.) And FAE can be quite a big boom, I agree. However, I grant, I would not want to be a kid in a warzone. Seen too many that found mines.

Brother Coa wrote:Your eyes and mouth full of that gritty concrete dust from the artillery falling short are a lot batter then having your body part blow away or getting shot in the stomach and die slowly. But I don't think that kind of story is for this site for normal people to read...

Agreed. Bleeding out is bad, but shrapnel and white phosphorus are worse, and now my shoulder hurts thinking about it so we'll let this whole subject drop.

Brother Coa wrote:But you should see early 1990's on Balkan, it was as worse as any today's active war zone. No wait - it was worse since it was civil war + ethnic cleansing from all sides.

Yes, sadly, I knew several individuals (and let me point out, they were not my friends) involved in an arms ring selling guns to all sides during that, to 'advance national interests'. Personally I think it was more to 'line personal pockets'.

Brother Coa wrote:
I didn't say that mere men can't do it. I am saying that it is not as easy as you are describing it. And so what if building collapsed on Marines squad and killed them? One single Tau Fire Warrior killed a Lord of Change himself, but that doesen;t mean that single Guardsmen could kill it that easily to.

The trick of any strategy is to force your opponent into the prepared killing ground. When fighting in built up areas it's easier, and attacks can come from more directions. It the open countryside you'd stand less of a chance, then it's mines, preferably something simple, since it's more likely that a SM preysight would detect a more complex mechanism, or in unexpected locations. Plain explosives would work well here too, used to trigger landslides and avalanches in deadly terrain like mountains. A pal of mine who was in Afghanistan told me a rather humorous story, and I'm not sure I believe him, about a trebuchet taking out a IFV by dropping a huge bolder on it from over a hill. No one inside was hurt, but the IFV was out of commission because it's transmission and treds were wrecked. If it's true, and again, I'm not sure I believe him, it's a good example of using lower tech to beat higher tech through creative application.

Brother Coa wrote:
So? Sand and mud in rifle reduce her effectiveness but it can still shoot.

Yes, but this would be more like firing that rifle underwater. It could still shoot, maybe, but the range and stopping power are heavily reduced.

Brother Coa wrote:
That's right, GW said so. Adn GW said so that Space Marines are Mankind greatest warriors, steel and doom. That doesn't;t mean that they are immortal - but they are as hard to kill as hell.
They way you described for killing Marine could work only if marine stand still and let me have a shot witch is hilarious to even think about. The most realistic thing I saw in this thread was .50 caliber sniper, Abrams shot, A-10 Thunderbolt and RPG-7 direct hit. But taking a knife and slicing his throat is just hilarious for me to imagine.

And how many times have we seen the Sargent unwisely not wearing his helmet? Throw enough men at them fast enough and you can pull it off (as was shown in First Heretic). It's easier in close terrain than in the open, but doable. Certain types of knives will probably do better. Ceramic and glass can have monomolecular edges even with current tech, and can actually be fairly hard, and the US Army has started handing out what is basically a small plasma cutter on a trial basis to some spec ops troops.

Brother Coa wrote:
Either way - we lose.

Not really, a ball bearing traveling at orbital velocities would have a similar impact to one of those Tau railguns they mount on their starships. Throw a big enough cloud of them at it, and...

Brother Coa wrote:
Actually, we caused 6 of them - what to say we love to fight it is in our blood
At least we are not stealing Oil from other countries by using democracy as cover story.

LOL
As being of Irish and Native American decent, I know something about fighting being in the blood.
And, agreed, but the last place I was it wasn't for oil. It wasn't really for democracy, either though.

You do realize that makes them taller then a land raider, right? They'd be squeezing in like a clown car. I'll stick with FW's seven foot. It seems more likely and the scale matches up better.

While Know No Fear does seem to put them at 9 feet or so which is a bit much (even tho heresy era marines are supposed to be slightly bigger) and my personal favourite height range is the most common 7'6" as average (though it could also depend on chapter, on primarch, on gravity of chapter homeworld etc.) because there are roughly 20,000 people in the world over 7 tall, and being taller than a space marine is heresy. 7'6" is a lot more rare than 7'

im2randomghgh wrote:

You do realize that makes them taller then a land raider, right? They'd be squeezing in like a clown car. I'll stick with FW's seven foot. It seems more likely and the scale matches up better.

While Know No Fear does seem to put them at 9 feet or so which is a bit much (even tho heresy era marines are supposed to be slightly bigger) and my personal favourite height range is the most common 7'6" as average (though it could also depend on chapter, on primarch, on gravity of chapter homeworld etc.) because there are roughly 20,000 people in the world over 7 tall, and being taller than a space marine is heresy. 7'6" is a lot more rare than 7'

As I recall, they're 7ft 6in without armour on, and 8ft with it.
Still, once again we've got the ol' 40K loose canon to contend with here.

Gorskar.da.Lost wrote:
As I recall, they're 7ft 6in without armour on, and 8ft with it.
Still, once again we've got the ol' 40K loose canon to contend with here.

Not the least of which is they start measuring at 2' instead of 1'

I mentioned the 'Tales of Heresy' Call of the Lion story at the start of the thread and got laughed off a bit.

However, nothing I've read here (and I've been reading a while) really suggests an alternate to what I thought from reading that short story.

The planet really did seem to be a stand in for modern day Earth, with a (broadly) similar makeup, including a UN expy.

Basically, if I remember right, marines do take casualties in it, either from anti tank weaponry or assorted dirty tricks (I think collapsing buildings was mentioned), and one or two from infantry fire but the main war ends up being much of a curb stomp and that it wasn't using a particularly large amount of legion resources.

I think the story ends with a squad of Terminators teleporting into the not-UN and slaughtering every major government leader after drop podded squads took out the main military bases on the planet.

I think that's a pretty fair / logical summary of what would happen, all things considered...

Gorskar.da.Lost wrote:

im2randomghgh wrote:

You do realize that makes them taller then a land raider, right? They'd be squeezing in like a clown car. I'll stick with FW's seven foot. It seems more likely and the scale matches up better.

While Know No Fear does seem to put them at 9 feet or so which is a bit much (even tho heresy era marines are supposed to be slightly bigger) and my personal favourite height range is the most common 7'6" as average (though it could also depend on chapter, on primarch, on gravity of chapter homeworld etc.) because there are roughly 20,000 people in the world over 7 tall, and being taller than a space marine is heresy. 7'6" is a lot more rare than 7'

As I recall, they're 7ft 6in without armour on, and 8ft with it.
Still, once again we've got the ol' 40K loose canon to contend with here.

That can be explained away with having taller or short initiates, taller or short primarchs (this trait would likely carry through the space marines) higher or lower gravity worlds etc.

im2randomghgh wrote:

Gorskar.da.Lost wrote:

im2randomghgh wrote:

You do realize that makes them taller then a land raider, right? They'd be squeezing in like a clown car. I'll stick with FW's seven foot. It seems more likely and the scale matches up better.

While Know No Fear does seem to put them at 9 feet or so which is a bit much (even tho heresy era marines are supposed to be slightly bigger) and my personal favourite height range is the most common 7'6" as average (though it could also depend on chapter, on primarch, on gravity of chapter homeworld etc.) because there are roughly 20,000 people in the world over 7 tall, and being taller than a space marine is heresy. 7'6" is a lot more rare than 7'

As I recall, they're 7ft 6in without armour on, and 8ft with it.
Still, once again we've got the ol' 40K loose canon to contend with here.

That can be explained away with having taller or short initiates, taller or short primarchs (this trait would likely carry through the space marines) higher or lower gravity worlds etc.

Probably the best way of looking at it, really.
Certainly we know that the Primarchs varied massively in height, if Alpharius/Omegon are anything to go by.

im2randomghgh wrote:

blazinpsycho&typhooni wrote:Still don't know why this thread is still going on...

ANYTHING can kill a space marine, it's the tactics, methods, and situations that determine whether or not they will actually succeed.

A pointy stick could slice the throat of a marine if they're helmetless, don't have errant armour (with the neck guard), and being swarmed by hundreds upon thousands of savages. (read First Heretic).

There armour is no doubt impressive but they all have their faults, pretty sure non marines are told to aim for the joints when facing sphez marines.

They aren't invincible, but they're pretty close.

Slit their throat and their larraman cells are going to stop the bleeding right away. Unless you penetrate deep, which would be quite difficult considering Know No Fear states that they are "As tall as a tall man on another tall man's shoulders".

Must've been one pansy chaplain then. Still...

Compel wrote:
I think that's a pretty fair / logical summary of what would happen, all things considered...

Except that it means that their entire military was run by morons and their leaders didn't have brain one among them. Did they also form neat lines to be shot down in long bursts on full auto?

Ok, here's what *I* would do in the event of SM invasion. ATM Nasa monitors near Earth space for objects that mass around wast a SM strike cruiser does, particularly on Earth intercept, so a sneak attack is probably out. Plus that fact that in fluff the engines have outputs across multiple frequencies when underway comparable to small stars.

On determining hostile intent, I would deploy THELs and other interception systems to counter drop pods and re-issue W48's to all artillery units. This would be followed up by taking up tactical positions both in major cities and at prepared positions away from urban areas.

All long range Nuclear weapons would be launched, along with the Brilliant Pebbles prototype, if it still exists. Based on current estimates, this should be enough firepower on it's own to wipe out several hundred strike cruisers and battle barges, but I like to make sure.

Should any Thunderhawks penetrate interceptors and ground fire from the THELs et al, in close terrain they would be engaged with maximum force. In open ground, use of W48s would be authorized, followed up with air cav recon and close air support.

Given the average chapter is one thousand space marines, each loss is a much larger chunk of their effective fighting force then a similar loss would be to ground forces. Snipers would be under orders to target officers and heavy weapons teams as priority targets.

Obviously, all important personnel would be removed to remote and undisclosed locations.

Note: I just did this with nothing but the US military. (reasoning being that the US, Russia, and China would most likely top the list of countries to recruit or disable, and all have comparable weapons systems)

In all honesty it seems like most firearms could kill a marine with a lucky or very well placed shot. after all you can kill a marine in melee with just a gun butt (before anyone whines needlessly, might i point out that guardsman do this all the time in 40k games). Having something along the lines of a GL or a 50 cal with AP rounds would help.
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