Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

im2randomghgh wrote:@the genestealer part, this is magical 40k acid, and magical 40k stuff is magical.

Bad argument is bad. The acid spit does not work instantly on it's target and takes time to burn through even human flesh, as shown in ADB's Night Lord books.

im2randomghgh wrote:
@the tank part, so now tanks that are light enough to be light tanks cannot be MBT's regardless of their role?

@the genestealer part, this is magical 40k acid, and magical 40k stuff is magical.

@the rest, not hollow. You can clearly see on the breast plate 2+ inches of armour which is what I was referring to.

ANd yes, there is room for them to wear it. If there wasn't...they wouldn't be able to wear it.

@ irrelevant tanks business: Yes, because once you reach a certain point, it's can fulfill the all the necessity roles of an MBT.

@genestealerpart: No, because fluff even shows it's not. Your response there is composed of magical fail dust.

@ the rest. Yes, it is, if you look along the connection points with the arms on the chest piece, you'll see that the front of the chest is just as hollow as the back of the chest. Further, it has to be light, as the suit enviromental sensors are mounted in the chest. They would not work very well behind inches of super metal.


And, no, there's not. basic human anatomy would show you that. The hips and legs in particular are not arraigned in a manner matching human anatomy or even allowing bipedal walking in the human fashion, due to the excessive gap between the legs. The helmet would be impossible to put on or take off and the neck piece would prohibit them from turning their heads.

A sniper rifle with AM rounds, an assault cannon, or a tank (maybe on the tank). And running Space Marines over dosn't work. In a book, a chimera drives over a Space marine without a helmet, and he survives to rip off the hatch, kill the driver, rip out the seat and drive home.

CaptainAWESOME117 wrote:Running Space Marines over dosn't work. In a book, a chimera drives over a Space marine without a helmet, and he survives to rip off the hatch, kill the driver, rip out the seat and drive home...

...whilst having a tab

To be honest almost any 20th century weapon could kill a space marine if either lucky or in the right condition. Not all of their power armour is well armour. Consider the neck and arm joints. There was a story in WD with a dark angel taking a sniper round in the neck in a lucky well aimed shot. Anti armour weaponry is almost certain to do some damage as is artillery and field gun aslong as they use high explosive and not shrapnal or gas shells.

Speaking of tanks. Wouldnt be funny if a space marine got a pair of trousers wrapped round his head because the soldier got the sticky bomb stuck to them by mistake lol

BaronIveagh wrote:

im2randomghgh wrote:
@the tank part, so now tanks that are light enough to be light tanks cannot be MBT's regardless of their role?

@the genestealer part, this is magical 40k acid, and magical 40k stuff is magical.

@the rest, not hollow. You can clearly see on the breast plate 2+ inches of armour which is what I was referring to.

ANd yes, there is room for them to wear it. If there wasn't...they wouldn't be able to wear it.

@ irrelevant tanks business: Yes, because once you reach a certain point, it's can fulfill the all the necessity roles of an MBT.

@genestealerpart: No, because fluff even shows it's not. Your response there is composed of magical fail dust.

@ the rest. Yes, it is, if you look along the connection points with the arms on the chest piece, you'll see that the front of the chest is just as hollow as the back of the chest. Further, it has to be light, as the suit enviromental sensors are mounted in the chest. They would not work very well behind inches of super metal.


And, no, there's not. basic human anatomy would show you that. The hips and legs in particular are not arraigned in a manner matching human anatomy or even allowing bipedal walking in the human fashion, due to the excessive gap between the legs. The helmet would be impossible to put on or take off and the neck piece would prohibit them from turning their heads.

@irrelevant tank business (I agree is is irrelevant), you have no stated what area you reach a certain point in. Armour? Tonnage? Firepower? And they are fundamentally different because a light tank is designed for rapid movement and low-intensity conflicts, whereas a main battle tank functions exactly as it's name would imply: larger battles. While medium and heavy are no longer tank classifications, merely being main battle tanks of different sizes, light tanks are still a distinct thing.

@Genestealer stuff, that would indicate an inconsistency, as in the fluff helmets have deflect even bolt round before.

@the rest, we have no idea of the means used to scan the environment used by marine sensors, so that cannot be a part of your argument. It could have small barometers, it could have technology that wouldn't work at all IRL.

If you look at it, you'll note that the armoured part is white and the rest is grey. See how much white there is on the breastplate? 2+inches easily.

For the neck part, you can see that only the ring at the top and the part at the bottom that connects to the suit are solid metal, the rest is armoured rubber, or rubberized armour, whichever, meaning it would be flexible. That's the only reason why lasguns shots can hurt them at all; the negligible armour piercing abilities of lasguns means that only hits to joints and eye pieces will ever hurt a marine.

And your theory about the hips and legs sounds good...until you see how it fits together, and notice how it is obviously perfectly suitable for a human.

I reckon a 50 calibar rifle shot could kill a space marine if you could get a shot to the head.

CaptainAWESOME117 wrote:A sniper rifle with AM rounds, an assault cannon, or a tank (maybe on the tank). And running Space Marines over dosn't work. In a book, a chimera drives over a Space marine without a helmet, and he survives to rip off the hatch, kill the driver, rip out the seat and drive home.

Yes, and, again, Titans step on them and they are unharmed. It's called plot armor. I can point to another one were the SM is killed by a kid with a knife. The knife is poisoned, but it's still a kid with a knife.

LORD_PANTERA wrote:I reckon a 50 calibar rifle shot could kill a space marine if you could get a shot to the eye.

Fixed.

im2randomghgh wrote:
If you look at it, you'll note that the armoured part is white and the rest is grey. See how much white there is on the breastplate? 2+inches easily.

For the neck part, you can see that only the ring at the top and the part at the bottom that connects to the suit are solid metal, the rest is armoured rubber, or rubberized armour, whichever, meaning it would be flexible. That's the only reason why lasguns shots can hurt them at all; the negligible armour piercing abilities of lasguns means that only hits to joints and eye pieces will ever hurt a marine.

And your theory about the hips and legs sounds good...until you see how it fits together, and notice how it is obviously perfectly suitable for a human.

You might want to read the article that's from: Phil altered the armor to fit, it is not the canon armor.

"My aim was to match a marine design as closely are possible to this template while maintaining a shape that would allow a suitable 'marine' body to fit inside. Some modification to the design had to be made to make the body look reasonably proportioned and suitably heroic (strong man), but I hope the feel of the marine has been retained."

Interestingly enough, he could make it fit sideways, but the model human still suffered poke-through when it moved, meaning the range of motion in the joints still was not enough for the armor to match a human.

BaronIveagh wrote:

CaptainAWESOME117 wrote:A sniper rifle with AM rounds, an assault cannon, or a tank (maybe on the tank). And running Space Marines over dosn't work. In a book, a chimera drives over a Space marine without a helmet, and he survives to rip off the hatch, kill the driver, rip out the seat and drive home.

Yes, and, again, Titans step on them and they are unharmed. It's called plot armor. I can point to another one were the SM is killed by a kid with a knife. The knife is poisoned, but it's still a kid with a knife.

Plus there was Tu'shan bench-pressing a land raider in the last Salamander book.

LORD_PANTERA wrote:I reckon a 50 calibar rifle shot could kill a space marine if you could get a shot to the head.

APDS round will go through pretty much anywhere. Regular rounds the joints in the armor would be a good shot. the way they're designed they'd be excellent shot traps.

BaronIveagh wrote:

LORD_PANTERA wrote:I reckon a 50 calibar rifle shot could kill a space marine if you could get a shot to the head.

APDS round will go through pretty much anywhere. Regular rounds the joints in the armor would be a good shot. the way they're designed they'd be excellent shot traps.

The joints are rubberized armour, so small arms likely still could not get through.

Also, sabot round would NOT get t through anywhere, as we saw in Savage Scars that sarik's pauldron is more than capable of taking multiple direct hits from plasma weaponry, which has superior AP to sabot rounds. Also, the Space Marine game tells us that they have reactive armour.

Yeah but a game is worse that the worlds worst fluff and statistics from the rules (i.e.dropping to the ground on your belly offeres a 1 in 6 chance of not being killed by a lascannon, Yeah right).

IHateNids wrote:Yeah but a game is worse that the worlds worst fluff and statistics from the rules (i.e.dropping to the ground on your belly offeres a 1 in 6 chance of not being killed by a lascannon, Yeah right).

If you drop to your belly and it roars away over your head, then yeah.

If lascannnons are as powerful and fast as i am lead to belive, by the time youve seen the shot coming and have decided to hit the deck, its already punched clean through your head

IHateNids wrote:If lascannnons are as powerful and fast as i am lead to belive, by the time youve seen the shot coming and have decided to hit the deck, its already punched clean through your head

It's a beam of light, so essentially you would never even see it coming. As oxymoronic as that sounds. If you are close enough to be targeted by it, then you may see it charge up, but avoiding the beam would be like dodging a flashlight pointed at you as it turns on. Impossible.

Ignatius wrote:

IHateNids wrote:If lascannnons are as powerful and fast as i am lead to belive, by the time youve seen the shot coming and have decided to hit the deck, its already punched clean through your head

It's a beam of light, so essentially you would never even see it coming. As oxymoronic as that sounds. If you are close enough to be targeted by it, then you may see it charge up, but avoiding the beam would be like dodging a flashlight pointed at you as it turns on. Impossible.

My point exactly.

no matter the fluff, any weapon of today has a chance to kill one just as today rubber bullets still have a chance to kill a man.

Without armor any knife properly thrust or any firearm properly aimed would do damage although one shot would likely not stop them. Several though would probably do the trick.

With armor most of todays modern anti infantry weapons would have negligible chances of doing the job. A 30mm gatling gun with the right shells would have a good chance though. It has the momentum to knock even a SM down and provided the aim stays on him successive shots would eventually penetrate the armor.

CaptainAWESOME117 wrote:A sniper rifle with AM rounds, an assault cannon, or a tank (maybe on the tank). And running Space Marines over dosn't work. In a book, a chimera drives over a Space marine without a helmet, and he survives to rip off the hatch, kill the driver, rip out the seat and drive home.

That particular marine was possessed by a Daemon at the time, so actually that's not all that representative of what a SM can survive.

im2randomghgh wrote:
Also, sabot round would NOT get t through anywhere, as we saw in Savage Scars that sarik's pauldron is more than capable of taking multiple direct hits from plasma weaponry, which has superior AP to sabot rounds. Also, the Space Marine game tells us that they have reactive armour.

Well, one, other then, again, it's bad to kill off the main character of a novel right away, so, yeah, again, miraculous plot armor protects him.

And nonexplosive reactive armor, (as explosive would kill the wearer in this case) does nothing against APDS rounds. (Actually most explosive reactive armor also does next to nothing against APDS rounds. For reactive armor to have any effect, the projectile has to be longer then the thickness of the armor.)

IHateNids wrote:

Ignatius wrote:

IHateNids wrote:If lascannnons are as powerful and fast as i am lead to belive, by the time youve seen the shot coming and have decided to hit the deck, its already punched clean through your head

It's a beam of light, so essentially you would never even see it coming. As oxymoronic as that sounds. If you are close enough to be targeted by it, then you may see it charge up, but avoiding the beam would be like dodging a flashlight pointed at you as it turns on. Impossible.

My point exactly.

My point was that if you see someone pointing a lascannon at you and hear it charging up, you can throw off their aim by diving to the ground or in a crater etc.

pure sillyness though is how kroot who g2g in jungle terrain get a 2+ against lascannons. They must be pretty ninja


Automatically Appended Next Post:

BaronIveagh wrote:

im2randomghgh wrote:
Also, sabot round would NOT get t through anywhere, as we saw in Savage Scars that sarik's pauldron is more than capable of taking multiple direct hits from plasma weaponry, which has superior AP to sabot rounds. Also, the Space Marine game tells us that they have reactive armour.

Well, one, other then, again, it's bad to kill off the main character of a novel right away, so, yeah, again, miraculous plot armor protects him.

And nonexplosive reactive armor, (as explosive would kill the wearer in this case) does nothing against APDS rounds. (Actually most explosive reactive armor also does next to nothing against APDS rounds. For reactive armor to have any effect, the projectile has to be longer then the thickness of the armor.)

He is one of the main character of a novel, and this is the final push towards the end of the book. Perfect time to kill him.

Also, plot armour is like how Luke miraculously is never hit by a single shot form stormtroopers. Having sturdy armour, not so much. I grant you that from the crisis suit's PoV the story would have roasted Sarik, but then again that's from the pilot's PoV. If you had a neutral outside observer, his shoulder pad would likely still stop the first shot.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

BaronIveagh wrote:

im2randomghgh wrote:
Also, sabot round would NOT get t through anywhere, as we saw in Savage Scars that sarik's pauldron is more than capable of taking multiple direct hits from plasma weaponry, which has superior AP to sabot rounds. Also, the Space Marine game tells us that they have reactive armour.

Well, one, other then, again, it's bad to kill off the main character of a novel right away, so, yeah, again, miraculous plot armor protects him.

And nonexplosive reactive armor, (as explosive would kill the wearer in this case) does nothing against APDS rounds. (Actually most explosive reactive armor also does next to nothing against APDS rounds. For reactive armor to have any effect, the projectile has to be longer then the thickness of the armor.)

A sabot round from a tank cannon would most likely be longer than PA is thick.

A sabot round smaller would not have sufficient penetrating power.

I've not read the whole thread but has anyone stopped to consider that regardless of whether the SM's armour is penetrated the energy of what ever he is hit by is going to transfer to him.

So even if the sabot doesn't penetrate his armour there is still somewhere around 15 to 20 MegaJoules of energy to go somewhere. Even if that energy just hurled our hero backwards, accelerating from 0 to God knows how fast in a split second is going to turn even the toughest to goo.

Still don't know why this thread is still going on...

ANYTHING can kill a space marine, it's the tactics, methods, and situations that determine whether or not they will actually succeed.

A pointy stick could slice the throat of a marine if they're helmetless, don't have errant armour (with the neck guard), and being swarmed by hundreds upon thousands of savages. (read First Heretic).

There armour is no doubt impressive but they all have their faults, pretty sure non marines are told to aim for the joints when facing sphez marines.

They aren't invincible, but they're pretty close.

schadenfreude wrote:The average dakkadakka forum user could kill a space marine if enough of us were armed.

I very much doubt that, most of us don't have any training or contact with firearms. Not to mention actual basic training...

Average dakkadite=IG conscript stats

Less then that.

Those with police/military background=guardsmen stats

Please do not insult Imperial Guard by comparing them with us.

All modern small arms=stubbers=same stats as a flashlight.

Lasgun is more powerful then any our modern firearm. It is 100% accurate, reliable, easy to maintain, recharge, and las-shots works by making mini-plasma explosion on the target area. That is much more powerful then standard 5.56 or 7.62 bullet.

An entire chapter of space marines would have a hard time destroying the armed forces of North Korea.

I very much doubt that, Marines are not some average joe solders - they are Mankind's finest warriors.
With all their brothers in one place, with all of their support they will not just destroy North Korean army but several more before we actually kill some of them.
And what do we have to fight a Battle Barge? They can just bomb us into oblivion until we surrender.

Brother Coa wrote:

Those with police/military background=guardsmen stats

Please do not insult Imperial Guard by comparing them with us.

That was unintentionally hilarious of you.
IG have the same level of training generally as a modern soldier, dude. I'd say the average professional soldier easily had the same in-game stats as a Guardsmen.

Brother Coa wrote:

schadenfreude wrote:The average dakkadakka forum user could kill a space marine if enough of us were armed.

I very much doubt that, most of us don't have any training or contact with firearms. Not to mention actual basic training...

It must be nice to have had such a sheltered upbringing. My parents started teaching me to shoot when I was six.

Brother Coa wrote:
Please do not insult Imperial Guard by comparing them with us.

Wow, either you think we're all like you and have no grasp of how to use weapons, lay traps, set up an ambush, or handle and produce improvised explosives without looking it up on the internet.

All modern small arms=stubbers=same stats as a flashlight.

Sadly, in game, stubbers can have better stats then a lasgun.

Brother Coa wrote:Lasgun is more powerful then any our modern firearm. It is 100% accurate, reliable, easy to maintain, recharge, and las-shots works by making mini-plasma explosion on the target area. That is much more powerful then standard 5.56 or 7.62 bullet.

Sadly, no it's not. While it has superior dependability and is easily recharged, it's not 100% accurate (according to both fluff and game rules) and one thing that never seems to come up is that as a laser it's potency s a weapon goes to pot in rain, dust,fog, snow or any other sort of atmospheric condition beyond cool, dry air. 7.62 Nato has no such issues. Ever wonder why IG vets use shotguns? This is why. The reason IG get them has nothing do do with stopping power, etc, it has to do with lines of supply. Since a lasgun powerpack as a long lifespan, fewer of them must be transported from forgeworlds to the front.

Brother Coa wrote:
I very much doubt that, Marines are not some average joe solders - they are Mankind's finest warriors.
With all their brothers in one place, with all of their support they will not just destroy North Korean army but several more before we actually kill some of them.

Again, kid with poison knife kills SM captain in Souldrinkers. Ogryns can beat them to death. In Nightbringer, some die to mortar fire from rebel PDF. You grotesquely underestimate modern weapons.

Brother Coa wrote:
And what do we have to fight a Battle Barge? They can just bomb us into oblivion until we surrender.

I would recommend any number of powerful anti satellite weapons or your friendly neighborhood ICBM. (Which has better stats than the average Imperial Torp)





On the APDS issue earlier: a .50 could be loaded with APDS and pen. You do realize that in game explosives are not that much more powerful then modern ones? For that marine's reactive armor to stop a tank round, his armor would have to be a good foot thick or so. And even then it would only work... once.

Gorskar.da.Lost wrote:
That was unintentionally hilarious of you.
IG have the same level of training generally as a modern soldier, dude. I'd say the average professional soldier easily had the same in-game stats as a Guardsmen.

No, Guard is taking the best that certain planet has to offer and then trained them a little more to be Guardsmen.
Meaning that bet of US army would be in IG while the rest would remained in Earth PDF.

BaronIveagh wrote:For that marine's reactive armor to stop a tank round, his armor would have to be a good foot thick or so. And even then it would only work... once.

Then it would explode inside the hole = Spehz marhen jelly

Brother Coa wrote:Please do not insult Imperial Guard by comparing them with us.

Thats either a overexageration of guardsmen or a bad joke

Brother Coa wrote:

Gorskar.da.Lost wrote:
That was unintentionally hilarious of you.
IG have the same level of training generally as a modern soldier, dude. I'd say the average professional soldier easily had the same in-game stats as a Guardsmen.

No, Guard is taking the best that certain planet has to offer and then trained them a little more to be Guardsmen.
Meaning that bet of US army would be in IG while the rest would remained in Earth PDF.

That depends on the planet. Some are conscripted, others are a sign-up service. There would easily be current day armies better than some IG regiments, since they can either be crippled by loss of a leader due to it being constantly drilled into them from birth not to question or modify anything, while a current day army member would have more initiative.