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 Kanluwen wrote:

 Eldarsif wrote:

 NinthMusketeer wrote:
The message I got is that everyone will be getting an offense boost. Which seems bad to me.

At this point it is almost required considering the resilience of the new SM codex. Sadly that resilience will not be shared by any other faction which worries me a bit considering the overall offensive boost.

...did you seriously say that it's Marine resilience you're concerned about?
On the same day we got the Reanimation Procotols rules?

Yes, or is 3+, T4-5, and 2-3 wounds not resilient, I sometimes get confused? I mean, I don't foresee playing my Aeldari or Tyranids at all in this edition as it currently stands.

Also, I feel like I need to add a disclaimer. not all xenos players play necrons, and Necrons do not represent all xenos players. Necrons are in no way affiliated with the entirety of the Xenos factions which are numerous and not interconnected. A player can be at all times a Necron player, and count as a Xenos player without representing any other Xenos player, whether they be Aeldari, Tyranid, Tau, or any other known associate. A Necron player can be friends with another non-Necron Xenos player, but that does not mean that the Necron faction within the game itself can ally with the faction of said friendly player.

 Latro_ wrote:
seems storm shields are 4+ +1 save for everyone inc termies

Every thing else is nice for Sisters, but this? This is a bad kick in the nads for Crusaders lol.

 Latro_ wrote:
Weapons preview up
https://www.warhammer-community.com/2020/09/14/codex-space-marines-weapons-and-wargear-updates/

seems storm shields are 4+ +1 save for everyone inc termies

Good, so Wulfen will be a bit easier to kill now (assuming you have AP>0). 3++ followed by 5+++ was OP.

Very pleased to hear they are updating all generic weapons being boosted by the Marines dex.

NEED to know.

Any pts change to these weapons for one and all?

Have they sorted the wording for Storm shields so this 2++ crap is eradicated.

 Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl wrote:

 Latro_ wrote:
seems storm shields are 4+ +1 save for everyone inc termies

Every thing else is nice for Sisters, but this? This is a bad kick in the nads for Crusaders lol.

yea, but they do get a 2+ save vs anything without an AP which i guess just changes how good they are in various situations. I expect if a horde of boys or lasguns are baring down on them its curtains 2+ or not

 Eldarsif wrote:

 Kanluwen wrote:

 Eldarsif wrote:

 NinthMusketeer wrote:
The message I got is that everyone will be getting an offense boost. Which seems bad to me.

At this point it is almost required considering the resilience of the new SM codex. Sadly that resilience will not be shared by any other faction which worries me a bit considering the overall offensive boost.

...did you seriously say that it's Marine resilience you're concerned about?
On the same day we got the Reanimation Procotols rules?

Yes, or is 3+, T4-5, and 2-3 wounds not resilient, I sometimes get confused? I mean, I don't foresee playing my Aeldari or Tyranids at all in this edition as it currently stands.

Also, I feel like I need to add a disclaimer. not all xenos players play necrons, and Necrons do not represent all xenos players. Necrons are in no way affiliated with the entirety of the Xenos factions which are numerous and not interconnected. A player can be at all times a Necron player, and count as a Xenos player without representing any other Xenos player, whether they be Aeldari, Tyranid, Tau, or any other known associate. A Necron player can be friends with another non-Necron Xenos player, but that does not mean that the Necron faction within the game itself can ally with the faction of said friendly player.

He didn't come close to saying all Xenos players are Necrons though. He said "This Xenos thing seems even tougher than marines", and left the obvious implication implicit.

 Latro_ wrote:
yea, but they do get a 2+ save vs anything without an AP

No no, they are not Terminators they are Crusaders. They have a base 5+ or 4+ save (I don't remember which one because it never mattered before). They used to have a 3++, not they have at best a 3+ and a 4++, maybe just a 4++.

So flamer equivalents get their range boosted for Xenos and if you use "power sword" or the like that gets help too?

But outside of those you face improved Imperial/Heretic tech until you get your book?

 Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl wrote:

 Latro_ wrote:
yea, but they do get a 2+ save vs anything without an AP

No no, they are not Terminators they are Crusaders. They have a base 5+ or 4+ save (I don't remember which one because it never mattered before). They used to have a 3++, not they have at best a 3+ and a 4++, maybe just a 4++.

oh right, sorry my bad i assumed they had power armour! didn't they have a power armour save at one time?!
Yea, with a 4+ armour save they objectively got worse.

I don't think so. Just carapace armor (4+) or flak armor (5+).

actually they're not objectivly worse all the time. VS AP0 in light cover they are now better! lol

 Latro_ wrote:

 Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl wrote:

 Latro_ wrote:
yea, but they do get a 2+ save vs anything without an AP

No no, they are not Terminators they are Crusaders. They have a base 5+ or 4+ save (I don't remember which one because it never mattered before). They used to have a 3++, not they have at best a 3+ and a 4++, maybe just a 4++.

oh right, sorry my bad i assumed they had power armour! didn't they have a power armour save at one time?!
Yea, with a 4+ armour save they objectively got worse.

Well even with 3+ it would be nerf as -2 is so　common. It's basically 2+ and you can benefit, otherwise change is nerf. Unsurprisingly article doesn't say it's nerf though. It doesn't sell.

TBH Crusaders are a legacy unit.

 Galas wrote:
TBH Crusaders are a legacy unit.

No, they are in the ig and sisters books. But to also be fair they got much nastier in cc now that they get bonus st on their sword.

Wulfen have a 4+ base save at present, so the ones given thunder hammer and storm shield would effectively be 3+/4++/5+++ in the open.

 Kanluwen wrote:

 Eldarsif wrote:

 NinthMusketeer wrote:
The message I got is that everyone will be getting an offense boost. Which seems bad to me.

At this point it is almost required considering the resilience of the new SM codex. Sadly that resilience will not be shared by any other faction which worries me a bit considering the overall offensive boost.

...did you seriously say that it's Marine resilience you're concerned about?
On the same day we got the Reanimation Procotols rules?

where are the reanimation protocal rules?

 Hulksmash wrote:

 Galas wrote:
TBH Crusaders are a legacy unit.

No, they are in the ig and sisters books. But to also be fair they got much nastier in cc now that they get bonus st on their sword.

He's not wrong saying they're a legacy unit though. They came with Witchhunters and just keep sticking around.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

BrianDavion wrote:

where are the reanimation protocal rules?

Check the Necron thread down in 40k General.

The long and short of it is:
we didn't get the exact details of the rules, but we did find out that it's a FNP-style save that can only be negated by wiping out the whole unit in a single series of attacks.

yeah just saw it, nice.

I love hating GW and 40k as much as some people here but there's a lot of strange indications that everything they are cranking out now has been in the works for almost the entirety of 8th. I feel like all the gak of 8th was just bandaid patches until they flesh out 9th. I also feel like we really have no accurate gauge for how 9th is going to be until 6 months to a year. I also feel like if you aren't Space Marines Necrons or Death Guard, chances are you are in for a rough edition for the next year or so. Chaos Space Marines or Thousand Sons or Sisters are probably getting a codex release relatively early in the edition to sell new and shiny models as well. I also don't think you are getting weapon updates until your codex launches; that would be a messy errata to write when they probably have codices ready to trickle out for the next year. Also also GW has acknowledged that there is a serious problem with diversity in the meta, and I think even they can see the serious implications of space marine players fighting mostly space marine players the vast majority of the time.

TL;DR We don't know how good or bad this edition is going to be since there is a lot of weird behavior exhibited by GW. I am hesitant to condemn anything right now and am even a bit hopeful.

macluvin wrote:
I also don't think you are getting weapon updates until your codex launches; that would be a messy errata to write when they probably have codices ready to trickle out for the next year. Also also GW has acknowledged that there is a serious problem with diversity in the meta, and I think even they can see the serious implications of space marine players fighting mostly space marine players the vast majority of the time.

TL;DR We don't know how good or bad this edition is going to be since there is a lot of weird behavior exhibited by GW. I am hesitant to condemn anything right now and am even a bit hopeful.

We know that all (if WHC actually got it right) that all same named weapons in all factions are updated on Codex marines release.

Worryingly I think they are looking at realsing so many Marine models that they cover the diversity element right there...

 Dysartes wrote:
Wulfen have a 4+ base save at present, so the ones given thunder hammer and storm shield would effectively be 3+/4++/5+++ in the open.

Yep one of the units nerfed with this

tneva82 wrote:

 Dysartes wrote:
Wulfen have a 4+ base save at present, so the ones given thunder hammer and storm shield would effectively be 3+/4++/5+++ in the open.

Yep one of the units nerfed with this

IMHO the storm sheild change was proably needed, I think GW wants to walk back from invul saves higher then 4++. stormshields will be good oiver all, but you'll see less of them on captains as the benifits from a storm shield will be pretty minimal

Surely overall the storm shield change is a nerf?

Against ap0 - terminators No change, 3+ save models better

Against ap -1 - Terminators Better, 3+ save models no change

Against ap-2 and better All units worse off.

Stormshields were nasty as they tanked the high AP weapons so easily, it's what they were for. Now they only tank 50% of them.

Personally I am a big fan of the change

Couple that with the new wound allocation and I'm even more of a fan

BrianDavion wrote:

tneva82 wrote:

 Dysartes wrote:
Wulfen have a 4+ base save at present, so the ones given thunder hammer and storm shield would effectively be 3+/4++/5+++ in the open.

Yep one of the units nerfed with this

IMHO the storm sheild change was proably needed, I think GW wants to walk back from invul saves higher then 4++. stormshields will be good oiver all, but you'll see less of them on captains as the benifits from a storm shield will be pretty minimal

It wouldn't have been that bad if you at least had to pay but what 4 pts for 3++? When orks pay 5 for 6+++. Cant even price that appropriately as 4pts doesn't leave room

JWBS wrote:
He didn't come close to saying all Xenos players are Necrons though. He said "This Xenos thing seems even tougher than marines", and left the obvious implication implicit.

Which is why I added a disclaimer.as there is a surprising amount of people who equate a single Xenos faction as all Xenos factions.

I do hope Necrons get to be tough, they deserve it. Sadly it won't fix it for all the other xenos factions.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Doohicky wrote:
Surely overall the storm shield change is a nerf?

Against ap0 - terminators No change, 3+ save models better

Against ap -1 - Terminators Better, 3+ save models no change

Against ap-2 and better All units worse off.

Stormshields were nasty as they tanked the high AP weapons so easily, it's what they were for. Now they only tank 50% of them.

Personally I am a big fan of the change

Couple that with the new wound allocation and I'm even more of a fan

It's a good change. It is a boost to 2+ units like terminators that now effectively ignore -1 AP, but keeps normal SM armor at 3+. Basically the invuln save has been nerfed, but at the same time the unit has effectively got an ignore -1 AP.

Against minus two termies are the same not worse off. They only get worse off vs minus 3.

A termie in light cover is actually better than 8th ed storm shield

I do like the storm shield change, particularly because of how it works with terminators. I also like how marine chainswords get -1 ap but not regular human ones.

I do not like the feeling that 9th was launched 2/3s the way through its development and the community is acting as playtesters for a set of rules that aren't finished yet. I am used to GW rules quality but this is the first time I have felt like the edition is unfinished and still being developed rather than simply flawed.

 NinthMusketeer wrote:
I do like the storm shield change, particularly because of how it works with terminators. I also like how marine chainswords get -1 ap but not regular human ones.

.

in fairness astartes are the only army that makes large use of chainswords. outside space marines chainswords are mostly seen as a freebie weapon on guard sergants and SOB sister superiors

I liked how khorne berzerkers were one of the chainsword 'big winners' in the article... like they have not had chain axes that have better stats than the new and improved chainsword!

I mean you can run with both so it's a win, but not as much of one than other units

That one bonus attack doh? Big winner is strong but they are improved. I'm just glad it didn't end up Primaris/Loyalist only.