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 Gert wrote:

Spoiler:

 techsoldaten wrote:
Never doubt the power of a skilled writer.

A greatly depleted Ork revivalist faction fights rearguard actions against a Legion, stripping it of materials and equipment during the rush to Terra. Legions are forced to fight their way through, delays enabling staunch defenses of Imperial positions.

A Warseer suddenly launches a brutal campaign against warring Legions to avert their path away from a shrouded Craftworld. Both sides are caught up in strategic conflicts that draw them to the edge of a contested sector, before the Eldar suddenly withdrawl.

The endless curiosity of some Explorator Majori investigating sites of the Rangdan Xenocides leads to the accidental awakening of some Necron dynasty, which proceeds to carry out hostile activities against Imperial worlds. Contact records are lost in the havoc of the HH, as Loyalists and Traitors alike are forced to fight in order to withdraw.

Stories like this could fit into the Heresy without diminishing the overall setting.

Except we aren't writing a book, it's playing the game. As soon as a Xenos army shows up they have an equal chance to be played as any other faction (excluding the Legions) in the game and then we lose the point of the Heresy being the Heresy, it's now just 40k Lite. A short story or single game about the events you have described is an interesting story, having it be a possibility for every game played is not.

Spoiler:

tneva82 wrote:
Besides how much non-crusade stuff there really is in HH? Aka how hard it would be to get aliens to HH game system by creating supplement for crusade.

Crusade involved lots of fighting vs aliens. And legions fought like legions as they weren't split yet.

Again, the Great Crusade is not an issue but IMO it then just becomes 40k with fewer options for Xenos players. As a community effort to help people transition from one ruleset to another I think it's fine but I don't see the point in doing it in any official capacity.

Xenos could be accommodated if they expand the Horus Heresy line to other "historical" time periods. For example, you could have a game set in the period immediately preceding Abaddon's 13th Black Crusade. But then the marine armies would look a lot different. They'd be organized into chapters and follow the Codex Astartes. GW would probably need to design a whole new line of miniatures to cover it properly.

 Gadzilla666 wrote:
I'm sorry, did I say anything about the trait? Or stratagems? Or relics? Let me check........nope, didn't mention any of that crap. I was talking about Jump Lords. Y'know, those guys that practically every Night Lords player has? The guys that lead our armies? Because they can actually keep up with them?

My army has been led by a Chaos Lord, with paired lightning claws and a Jump Pack since I started it twenty years ago. And no amount of tacked on and CCG inspired nonsense is going to replace that. But go on, keep defending whatever gw decides to strip away from CSM, or anyone else, just because they threw more stratagems at us.

I get that. I don't agree with the level of emotional input.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Gene St. Ealer wrote:
Yep, and CSM 9e replaces your invalidated units and models with gimmicky wombo combo crap that we all seemed to have hated in 8e (I'm sure I could dig up scores of posts from folks in this thread on that topic), but the kneejerk contrarians have conveniently forgotten about all that.

Who is talking about combo wombo? I've seen nothing of the sort like the old codex had.

Okay, let's consider it another way -- what do you think is interesting/new besides bespoke rules for each Legion (we already had that from PA, it's just combined in one book now), or supercharged Legionaries/Possessed/Oblits? What Dudeface posted last page seems like the definition of a wombo combo to me.

I remember when Apothecaries were resurrecting ATVs at the start of 9th. People called it a competitive boogeyman (it didn't end up being one), but pretty much everybody agreed that it was super lame. Now CSM can respawn oblits and it's cool? It feels like many are evaluating this book with a different lens.

 Matt.Kingsley wrote:
On foot doesn't even work well because they removed lightning claws as a weapon option, too.
At that point you're basically proxying.

With charges needing an 8 now from deepstrike ( when charging into area terrain ) I'd just take a claw terminator lord until GW fixes it.

Krieg Acerbus is also a DP from the biggest warband for Night Lords, so that IS an option for lore purists.

 Daedalus81 wrote:
I get that. I don't agree with the level of emotional input.

Perhaps you should consider the concept of empathy then.
CSM players can be annoying (I'm including myself) because it seems like the complaints are never-ending. That being said, considering that the last Codex that is widely considered good (as in it ticks the boxes of a viable army and having good narrative rules) is now old enough to buy alcohol in the USA and the last book that ticked these boxes lasted less than 6 months (Traitor Legions Supplement during 7th) can you maybe understand why people are still angry? I'd even say that more established CSM players have had their armies invalidated than any other army so far in 9th, and the responses have been (at least in my experience):
1 - Just buy new stuff.
2 - Break apart your old stuff and put new stuff on.
3 - Stop complaining because the army rules are good (which might not even be very true).
Do you think any of the above are fair responses? Or do you maybe think that telling people who've had nothing but rubbish from GW for the past 20 odd years for their army are maybe justified in their anger?


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Daedalus81 wrote:
With charges needing an 8 now from deepstrike ( when charging into area terrain ) I'd just take a claw terminator lord until GW fixes it.

Krieg Acerbus is also a DP from the biggest warband for Night Lords, so that IS an option for lore purists.

Except it's not just about Deepstriking. A Terminator Lord doesn't work with Raptors or Talons who have much greater mobility for the rest of the game.
And also Daemon Princes are how much more expensive than a Chaos Lord? It's not lore purity that's the only problem here chief.

 Gert wrote:

 Daedalus81 wrote:
I get that. I don't agree with the level of emotional input.

Perhaps you should consider the concept of empathy then.
CSM players can be annoying (I'm including myself) because it seems like the complaints are never-ending. That being said, considering that the last Codex that is widely considered good (as in it ticks the boxes of a viable army and having good narrative rules) is now old enough to buy alcohol in the USA and the last book that ticked these boxes lasted less than 6 months (Traitor Legions Supplement during 7th) can you maybe understand why people are still angry? I'd even say that more established CSM players have had their armies invalidated than any other army so far in 9th, and the responses have been (at least in my experience):
1 - Just buy new stuff.
2 - Break apart your old stuff and put new stuff on.
3 - Stop complaining because the army rules are good (which might not even be very true).
Do you think any of the above are fair responses? Or do you maybe think that telling people who've had nothing but rubbish from GW for the past 20 odd years for their army are maybe justified in their anger?

Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Daedalus81 wrote:
With charges needing an 8 now from deepstrike ( when charging into area terrain ) I'd just take a claw terminator lord until GW fixes it.

Krieg Acerbus is also a DP from the biggest warband for Night Lords, so that IS an option for lore purists.

Except it's not just about Deepstriking. A Terminator Lord doesn't work with Raptors or Talons who have much greater mobility for the rest of the game.
And also Daemon Princes are how much more expensive than a Chaos Lord? It's not lore purity that's the only problem here chief.

Don't forget the fact that we know the Daemon Prince Datasheet has an expiration date of a few months at best on it, and the fact GW basically lied about including Traitor Guard in the Codex (even if that latter one can be admittably called a pet peeve of mine, since I wanted to make a Cultist-heavy force)

 Gert wrote:

 Daedalus81 wrote:
I get that. I don't agree with the level of emotional input.

Perhaps you should consider the concept of empathy then.
CSM players can be annoying (I'm including myself) because it seems like the complaints are never-ending. That being said, considering that the last Codex that is widely considered good (as in it ticks the boxes of a viable army and having good narrative rules) is now old enough to buy alcohol in the USA and the last book that ticked these boxes lasted less than 6 months (Traitor Legions Supplement during 7th) can you maybe understand why people are still angry? I'd even say that more established CSM players have had their armies invalidated than any other army so far in 9th, and the responses have been (at least in my experience):
1 - Just buy new stuff.
2 - Break apart your old stuff and put new stuff on.
3 - Stop complaining because the army rules are good (which might not even be very true).
Do you think any of the above are fair responses? Or do you maybe think that telling people who've had nothing but rubbish from GW for the past 20 odd years for their army are maybe justified in their anger?

I own thousands of points in CSM. I'm sure you do as well. Not all of them are going to hit the table.

At some point you either quit or get on with it. That isn't to say don't be upset, but carrying on for days about it? I don't know.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Gert wrote:
Except it's not just about Deepstriking. A Terminator Lord doesn't work with Raptors or Talons who have much greater mobility for the rest of the game.
And also Daemon Princes are how much more expensive than a Chaos Lord? It's not lore purity that's the only problem here chief.

180 for the DP. A Lord with a JP and appropriate weapon would be 110 to 130 sans mark ( if it existed ). I imagine people can find the points -- otherwise what the hell have they been doing all these other editions as units jump in and out of viability?




Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Gene St. Ealer wrote:
Okay, let's consider it another way -- what do you think is interesting/new besides bespoke rules for each Legion (we already had that from PA, it's just combined in one book now), or supercharged Legionaries/Possessed/Oblits? What Dudeface posted last page seems like the definition of a wombo combo to me.

I remember when Apothecaries were resurrecting ATVs at the start of 9th. People called it a competitive boogeyman (it didn't end up being one), but pretty much everybody agreed that it was super lame. Now CSM can respawn oblits and it's cool? It feels like many are evaluating this book with a different lens.

Did you mean this statement from him?

I mean a mark of slaanesh legionnaires unit with icon getting +1 to hit, fight first, fight twice via strat and the black mace on the champ and a balefire tome allowing diabolic strength isn't something interesting you could do before

This is a unit with a big investment that is super vulnerable. It has mostly chain sword attacks. You'll also need a 10 man so you don't get your relic basically wiped off the table.

To fight twice is 2CP, which is going to be a big ask in this mission set on top of the 1CP spent pre-game. It's a cute unit that gets 4 S6 AP2 attacks. What exactly is it going to judiciously murder? There have been much worse combos in 9th that people made videos on and no one ever talked about them again, because they take a ton of effort.

That' is a whole lot different than deepstriking slaanesh obliterators and blasting away with shoot twice and VotLW.

Resurrecting an Obliterator is spicy, but I've brought back multiple 40 point models in a game that are equally durable ( if not more so ).

 Daedalus81 wrote:
At some point you either quit or get on with it. That isn't to say don't be upset, but carrying on for days about it? I don't know.

People keep asking why CSM players aren't happy with the Codex or people say that those same CSM players are idiots/WAAC chuds because they want proper unit options. Doesn't take a lot to figure out why the anger has continued in this thread.

180 for the DP. A Lord with a JP and appropriate weapon would be 110 to 130 sans mark ( if it existed ). I imagine people can find the points -- otherwise what the hell have they been doing all these other editions as units jump in and out of viability?

Did you factor in Wings for the Prince or do they just come with them now. Bear in mind I don't have access to the Codex and am going off past experience of Daemon Princes being rightfully more expensive than a Chaos Lord.

 Daedalus81 wrote:

 Gene St. Ealer wrote:
Okay, let's consider it another way -- what do you think is interesting/new besides bespoke rules for each Legion (we already had that from PA, it's just combined in one book now), or supercharged Legionaries/Possessed/Oblits? What Dudeface posted last page seems like the definition of a wombo combo to me.

I remember when Apothecaries were resurrecting ATVs at the start of 9th. People called it a competitive boogeyman (it didn't end up being one), but pretty much everybody agreed that it was super lame. Now CSM can respawn oblits and it's cool? It feels like many are evaluating this book with a different lens.

Did you mean this statement from him?

I mean a mark of slaanesh legionnaires unit with icon getting +1 to hit, fight first, fight twice via strat and the black mace on the champ and a balefire tome allowing diabolic strength isn't something interesting you could do before

This is a unit with a big investment that is super vulnerable. It has mostly chain sword attacks. You'll also need a 10 man so you don't get your relic basically wiped off the table.

To fight twice is 2CP, which is going to be a big ask in this mission set on top of the 1CP spent pre-game. It's a cute unit that gets 4 S6 AP2 attacks. What exactly is it going to judiciously murder? There have been much worse combos in 9th that people made videos on and no one ever talked about them again, because they take a ton of effort.

That' is a whole lot different than deepstriking slaanesh obliterators and blasting away with shoot twice and VotLW.

Resurrecting an Obliterator is spicy, but I've brought back multiple 40 point models in a game that are equally durable ( if not more so ).

I don't have the dex yet, so I can't confirm, but with the Black Mace + all the accoutrements (i.e. all the dudes with chainswords fighting twice), it's a bunch (IIRC 12) of S8 AP2 D3 attacks on top of the chainswords. Is that not true? Anyway, it's not the point if it's good or not -- it's what everybody is excited about (that and possessed, and Abaddon I guess) and it totally seems like a CCG combo?

And sure, SOTs coming back are pretty spooky, but there's a vast gulf in the deadliness of an SOT versus an obliterator, even if durability is comparable.

Anyway, I don't see how these are not gimmicky designs. This is the exact sort of thing that propped up CSM 8e, it propped up Orks 9e, and when it was nerfed, everybody complained because those books sucked and were devoid of flavor. Seems like the path we're going down here (that, or the Oblits/Possessed/Abaddon lists will not be as good as expected, and then people will complain about the book being gimmicky and UP.)

 Gert wrote:
Did you factor in Wings for the Prince or do they just come with them now. Bear in mind I don't have access to the Codex and am going off past experience of Daemon Princes being rightfully more expensive than a Chaos Lord.

Yea - 120 + 35 wings + 10 sword + 15 mark.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Gene St. Ealer wrote:
I don't have the dex yet, so I can't confirm, but with the Black Mace + all the accoutrements (i.e. all the dudes with chainswords fighting twice), it's a bunch (IIRC 12) of S8 AP2 D3 attacks on top of the chainswords. Is that not true? Anyway, it's not the point if it's good or not -- it's what everybody is excited about (that and possessed, and Abaddon I guess) and it totally seems like a CCG combo?

And sure, SOTs coming back are pretty spooky, but there's a vast gulf in the deadliness of an SOT versus an obliterator, even if durability is comparable.

Anyway, I don't see how these are not gimmicky designs. This is the exact sort of thing that propped up CSM 8e, it propped up Orks 9e, and when it was nerfed, everybody complained because those books sucked and were devoid of flavor. Seems like the path we're going down here (that, or the Oblits/Possessed/Abaddon lists will not be as good as expected, and then people will complain about the book being gimmicky and UP.)

Right, if you get diabolic off and you fight twice you'd pick up 10 ( 4 + 1 for diabolic ) attacks like that, however the fight twice is at the end of the phase. If the unit is strong you'll take swing backs. If not then fight twice is irrelevant. And you have to worry about casualties on the way in ( and denies, 27% cast failure, 6% perils ). AP2 doesn't hold up well against AoC.

As it stands it is a highly customized unit that can do some serious hurt, but it also takes a little finesse to get it to the right place.

This, I feel, is why it is so different. I can react to it. I can't do much about deepstriking oblits getting pushed with 3+ CP.

Yeah, I don't disagree, I don't think 10 Marines is going to ruin anybody's day like Oblits might. But I still say it's all very gimmicky - nothing seems to stand on its own (besides Abaddon) the way Custodes and Tau and Eldar and Nids units do. Of course, those books are largely way too good but idk, termicide or 10 LC termis is *exactly* the sort of thing that seems to be missing to me. Futz with the keywords to keep it from being OP when combined with strats, I don't care; it's just a shame that it's gone.

There’s a big difference between resurrecting an oblit and an ATV. The main issue with the latter is the fact it’s classified as a bike but should really be a vehicle, especially with 8 wounds. Nobody really bitches about bringing back attack bikes, which is more similar to the obliterator wounds wise.

 Daedalus81 wrote:

 Gert wrote:
Did you factor in Wings for the Prince or do they just come with them now. Bear in mind I don't have access to the Codex and am going off past experience of Daemon Princes being rightfully more expensive than a Chaos Lord.

Yea - 120 + 35 wings + 10 sword + 15 mark.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Gene St. Ealer wrote:
I don't have the dex yet, so I can't confirm, but with the Black Mace + all the accoutrements (i.e. all the dudes with chainswords fighting twice), it's a bunch (IIRC 12) of S8 AP2 D3 attacks on top of the chainswords. Is that not true? Anyway, it's not the point if it's good or not -- it's what everybody is excited about (that and possessed, and Abaddon I guess) and it totally seems like a CCG combo?

And sure, SOTs coming back are pretty spooky, but there's a vast gulf in the deadliness of an SOT versus an obliterator, even if durability is comparable.

Anyway, I don't see how these are not gimmicky designs. This is the exact sort of thing that propped up CSM 8e, it propped up Orks 9e, and when it was nerfed, everybody complained because those books sucked and were devoid of flavor. Seems like the path we're going down here (that, or the Oblits/Possessed/Abaddon lists will not be as good as expected, and then people will complain about the book being gimmicky and UP.)

Right, if you get diabolic off and you fight twice you'd pick up 10 ( 4 + 1 for diabolic ) attacks like that, however the fight twice is at the end of the phase. If the unit is strong you'll take swing backs. If not then fight twice is irrelevant. And you have to worry about casualties on the way in ( and denies, 27% cast failure, 6% perils ). AP2 doesn't hold up well against AoC.

As it stands it is a highly customized unit that can do some serious hurt, but it also takes a little finesse to get it to the right place.

This, I feel, is why it is so different. I can react to it. I can't do much about deepstriking oblits getting pushed with 3+ CP.

Oh I'm not advocating it'll wreck the game (although you've all missed that the d3 on the mace spills excess wounds over), but it's "interesting". It's a combination of stuff you couldn't do before and it makes the legionnaires unit here a serious threat as an example.

You'd all better hope that when they do the assembly instructions for the new daemon prince they don't decide that back-pack vents vs wings is the main differentiating feature between the 40k and AoS build.

bullyboy wrote:

Spoiler:

 Gadzilla666 wrote:

 Daedalus81 wrote:

 Gadzilla666 wrote:

 Daedalus81 wrote:

 JNAProductions wrote:
"The new book is more powerful" is not the same as "The new book is better".

The new book is objectively better ( not that this was a high bar to beat ). I played with it this weekend and it was quite fun.

No, it isn't "objectively" better. It might be better for you, and lots of other people, but for some of us it isn't. Night Lords without a Jump Lord is complete .

Yea these sort of hyperbolic statements don't do it for me. The NL traits are all better. Some strats are powered down, but more flexible than just 3 ways to charge harder. The relics all appear to be improved other than losing 2+ on stormbolt.

But..."complete gak", I guess.

It's like reading those obnoxious new headlines. "Person SLAMS thing!" It's just over the top language.

I'm sorry, did I say anything about the trait? Or stratagems? Or relics? Let me check........nope, didn't mention any of that crap. I was talking about Jump Lords. Y'know, those guys that practically every Night Lords player has? The guys that lead our armies? Because they can actually keep up with them?

My army has been led by a Chaos Lord, with paired lightning claws and a Jump Pack since I started it twenty years ago. And no amount of tacked on and CCG inspired nonsense is going to replace that. But go on, keep defending whatever gw decides to strip away from CSM, or anyone else, just because they threw more stratagems at us.

There is a lot right with this codex as Daedalus implies, but there are some things not kosher. I believe the weapon restrictions are more of an annoyance but completely agree that the jump pack issue is more of a you move by GW that makes people sour. If they are willing to walk back on this (like the Eldar autarch), I think that would go a long way, even if it was just for the Lord.

I'd agree with that, though I'd say that having large swathes of models invalidated is more than just an "annoyance" for most people. The codex isn't bad functionally, and there is some good stuff in it, but the wargear restrictions are big deal breakers for many, and the loss of Jump Packs for characters is one of the worst. Fixing that would be a major fix for many (including myself).

Daedalus81 wrote:Who is talking about combo wombo? I've seen nothing of the sort like the old codex had.

Go look at the Dakka CSM tactics thread. It's almost nothing but Abaddon and: (X)+(Y)+(B)+(A)= SUPER KILLY/DURABLE! And without getting into specific examples, and whether or not they're actually viable, the issue is that most of the actual use anyone is finding for things in the codex involves stacking multiple traits, stratagems, psychic powers, and prayers on units, which is something many of us were hoping that the faction could get away from.

Daedalus81 wrote:With charges needing an 8 now from deepstrike ( when charging into area terrain ) I'd just take a claw terminator lord until GW fixes it.

Krieg Acerbus is also a DP from the biggest warband for Night Lords, so that IS an option for lore purists.

Besides the mechanical issues that Gert has pointed out, you have to remember that Acerbus was an antagonistic character that showed up for a few pages at the end of the Lord of the Night novel. The actual protagonist (though definitely not the "good guy") of the novel was Zso Sahaal, a Night Lords character very opposed to the use of Chaos by the Legion. And he used a Jump Pack and paired lightning claws. So, you can do one of several antagonistic characters in the novel, but not the "Star".

And though Acerbus proves that a Daemon Prince can be "lore accurate" for the Legion, you have to remember that one of the big draws of the Legion is the "we don't do Chaos worship" aspect of it (including myself). And a Daemon Prince doesn't really jive with that. So they may be "lore accurate" for the Legion as a whole, but not for some people's own particular armies, which goes straight against the "making your dudes YOUR DUDES" aspect of 40k.

Daedalus81 wrote:I own thousands of points in CSM. I'm sure you do as well. Not all of them are going to hit the table.

At some point you either quit or get on with it. That isn't to say don't be upset, but carrying on for days about it? I don't know.

Have you not seen myself and others pointing out that the Liber Hereticus is a FAR better suited option for anyone looking for actual customization and better overall rules than this codex? "Quiting" is definitely an option. And considering the massive superiority of the rules, both for the Legions and the Core rules, I definitely see myself trying to play a lot more HH in the future than 40k. But I'd like to be able to enjoy 40k as well, especially considering how much easier it is to get a game of 40k.

But you have to consider, if your only argument is "Don't like it? Then get out", then that's a pretty poor defense of the codex.

180 for the DP. A Lord with a JP and appropriate weapon would be 110 to 130 sans mark ( if it existed ). I imagine people can find the points -- otherwise what the hell have they been doing all these other editions as units jump in and out of viability?

We play what we like, and deal with it, whether it's "viable" or not. But if what we like is just gone, then even that isn't an option, is it? This isn't a matter of an option no longer being "viable", it's a matter of it just being gone.



Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Abadabadoobaddon wrote:
You'd all better hope that when they do the assembly instructions for the new daemon prince they don't decide that back-pack vents vs wings is the main differentiating feature between the 40k and AoS build.

Oh Gods, that would be hilarious.

 bullyboy wrote:
There’s a big difference between resurrecting an oblit and an ATV. The main issue with the latter is the fact it’s classified as a bike but should really be a vehicle, especially with 8 wounds. Nobody really bitches about bringing back attack bikes, which is more similar to the obliterator wounds wise.

I think there is a matter of immersion too. Obviously 40k pushes that in a lot of ways, but a medic, running up to a destroyed buggy with two pilots, using his ability to heal biological damage to restore the entire buggy and both pilots to complete health, THAT is a bit much. Comparatively the warp-spawned daemonic creature of flesh and metal fused together into an ever-shifting mass standing back up after being destroyed isn't very surprising.

Its bad enough losing the jumppack/wings for the Lord, but today I realised that you can no longer give Terminators twin LCs.

(Yeah a bit late to the party but anyway).

Ive no issue with shiny new stuff being must buys with new codexes but invalidating existing models in peoples collections is beyond frustrating.

Memnoch wrote:
Its bad enough losing the jumppack/wings for the Lord, but today I realised that you can no longer give Terminators twin LCs.

(Yeah a bit late to the party but anyway).

Ive no issue with shiny new stuff being must buys with new codexes but invalidating existing models in peoples collections is beyond frustrating.

At least termie lords still can take them, my biggest gripe is the lack of plasma rifles for chosen.

 thepowerfulwill wrote:

Memnoch wrote:
Its bad enough losing the jumppack/wings for the Lord, but today I realised that you can no longer give Terminators twin LCs.

(Yeah a bit late to the party but anyway).

Ive no issue with shiny new stuff being must buys with new codexes but invalidating existing models in peoples collections is beyond frustrating.

At least termie lords still can take them, my biggest gripe is the lack of plasma rifles for chosen.

Chosen can still take combi-plasma tho? You can get up to 4 of them in a 10 man unit.

 Laughing Man wrote:

 thepowerfulwill wrote:

Memnoch wrote:
Its bad enough losing the jumppack/wings for the Lord, but today I realised that you can no longer give Terminators twin LCs.

(Yeah a bit late to the party but anyway).

Ive no issue with shiny new stuff being must buys with new codexes but invalidating existing models in peoples collections is beyond frustrating.

At least termie lords still can take them, my biggest gripe is the lack of plasma rifles for chosen.

Chosen can still take combi-plasma tho? You can get up to 4 of them in a 10 man unit.

Which really isn't a lot and doesn't help make the unit shootier. I'd rather be limited and take 2 Combi-Melta and 1 Combi-Plasma on Chaos Terminators. Chosen just don't have anything going for them over Terminators besides being able to take an Icon. That's not a great advantage.

EviscerationPlague wrote:

 Laughing Man wrote:

 thepowerfulwill wrote:

Memnoch wrote:
Its bad enough losing the jumppack/wings for the Lord, but today I realised that you can no longer give Terminators twin LCs.

(Yeah a bit late to the party but anyway).

Ive no issue with shiny new stuff being must buys with new codexes but invalidating existing models in peoples collections is beyond frustrating.

At least termie lords still can take them, my biggest gripe is the lack of plasma rifles for chosen.

Chosen can still take combi-plasma tho? You can get up to 4 of them in a 10 man unit.

Which really isn't a lot and doesn't help make the unit shootier. I'd rather be limited and take 2 Combi-Melta and 1 Combi-Plasma on Chaos Terminators. Chosen just don't have anything going for them over Terminators besides being able to take an Icon. That's not a great advantage.

Keep in mind that even if they take combi-weapons, they still have their accursed weapons. Chosen are melee unit who get to have a few special weapons thrown in. I converted a 5-man unit to have thunder hammers (silly me, apparently) and another with plasma guns. I'm just gonna mash them all together (with a random Chosen that has 2 lightning claws) and run 'em as one big, happy, Tzeentched-up mess.

 Manfred von Drakken wrote:

EviscerationPlague wrote:

 Laughing Man wrote:

 thepowerfulwill wrote:

Memnoch wrote:
Its bad enough losing the jumppack/wings for the Lord, but today I realised that you can no longer give Terminators twin LCs.

(Yeah a bit late to the party but anyway).

Ive no issue with shiny new stuff being must buys with new codexes but invalidating existing models in peoples collections is beyond frustrating.

At least termie lords still can take them, my biggest gripe is the lack of plasma rifles for chosen.

Chosen can still take combi-plasma tho? You can get up to 4 of them in a 10 man unit.

Which really isn't a lot and doesn't help make the unit shootier. I'd rather be limited and take 2 Combi-Melta and 1 Combi-Plasma on Chaos Terminators. Chosen just don't have anything going for them over Terminators besides being able to take an Icon. That's not a great advantage.

Keep in mind that even if they take combi-weapons, they still have their accursed weapons. Chosen are melee unit who get to have a few special weapons thrown in. I converted a 5-man unit to have thunder hammers (silly me, apparently) and another with plasma guns. I'm just gonna mash them all together (with a random Chosen that has 2 lightning claws) and run 'em as one big, happy, Tzeentched-up mess.

And.....Chaos Terminators still have their Accursed Weapons....

EviscerationPlague wrote:

 Manfred von Drakken wrote:

EviscerationPlague wrote:

 Laughing Man wrote:

 thepowerfulwill wrote:

Memnoch wrote:
Its bad enough losing the jumppack/wings for the Lord, but today I realised that you can no longer give Terminators twin LCs.

(Yeah a bit late to the party but anyway).

Ive no issue with shiny new stuff being must buys with new codexes but invalidating existing models in peoples collections is beyond frustrating.

At least termie lords still can take them, my biggest gripe is the lack of plasma rifles for chosen.

Chosen can still take combi-plasma tho? You can get up to 4 of them in a 10 man unit.

Which really isn't a lot and doesn't help make the unit shootier. I'd rather be limited and take 2 Combi-Melta and 1 Combi-Plasma on Chaos Terminators. Chosen just don't have anything going for them over Terminators besides being able to take an Icon. That's not a great advantage.

Keep in mind that even if they take combi-weapons, they still have their accursed weapons. Chosen are melee unit who get to have a few special weapons thrown in. I converted a 5-man unit to have thunder hammers (silly me, apparently) and another with plasma guns. I'm just gonna mash them all together (with a random Chosen that has 2 lightning claws) and run 'em as one big, happy, Tzeentched-up mess.

And.....Chaos Terminators still have their Accursed Weapons....

I hate this codex sometimes. Im going to miss my fallen angel plasma rirflemen squad...

It's one less plasma gun though.

 Laughing Man wrote:
It's one less plasma gun though.

We did it men, balance is saved.

 Wha-Mu-077 wrote:

 Laughing Man wrote:
It's one less plasma gun though.

We did it men, balance is saved.

Yes, clearly, the unit is now completely useless because it can only take four plasma guns instead of five. The Chosen plasma spam reign of terror has ended.

 Laughing Man wrote:

 Wha-Mu-077 wrote:

 Laughing Man wrote:
It's one less plasma gun though.

We did it men, balance is saved.

Yes, clearly, the unit is now completely useless because it can only take four plasma guns instead of five. The Chosen plasma spam reign of terror has ended.

Now do the comparison that has relevance with 5 models in a squad and 3 fewer plasma gun/combi-plasma.

 Laughing Man wrote:

 Wha-Mu-077 wrote:

 Laughing Man wrote:
It's one less plasma gun though.

We did it men, balance is saved.

Yes, clearly, the unit is now completely useless because it can only take four plasma guns instead of five. The Chosen plasma spam reign of terror has ended.

Actually they currently only get two, not four. And it looks like two Combis TOTAL. Even if it's dumb looking, I'd rather take the two Combi-Melta and one Combi-Plasma with Terminators.

Yeah. It's 2 Combi-Weapons per 5, of any sort. Not two of each type per 5.

Also posted in the World Eater’s thread.