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 Duskweaver wrote:
"Yeah, you know that interesting character trait that was one of the major defining features of this faction for seven editions? It was getting in the way of flogging new minis, so we got rid of it." - Someone at GW

Which editions are you including? Because they started featureless like all the other marines, became Native American flavored and then were randomly retconned into generic knights/Templars with trust issues and a sudden love of the color green.

They've had the circles within circles / hunt for the Fallen / stubbornly suspicious of outsiders stuff since Codex Angels of Death in 2nd edition / 1996. And that is part of what people who actually play DA have liked about them for the past 23 years. So I don't know what the hell you two are talking about.

And yet here we are, with story progression, Luther escaping, the known whereabouts of the Lion, an attack on the Rock itself, but you're just pissed because they want to sell you models.

I'm not 'pissed' about anything, just rolling my eyes a bit at GW's apparent willingness to throw out 23 years' worth of DA characterisation to sell some new plastic crack.

"We've spent 10,000 years not trusting anyone and obsessing over our Secret Shame (TM), but hey Azrael gave a speech so now just let's forget all that." - Some Random Dark Angel

 Duskweaver wrote:
I'm not 'pissed' about anything, just rolling my eyes a bit at GW's apparent willingness to throw out 23 years' worth of DA characterisation to sell some new plastic crack.

"We've spent 10,000 years not trusting anyone and obsessing over our Secret Shame (TM), but hey Azrael gave a speech so now just let's forget all that." - Some Random Dark Angel

Azrael's speech didn't say, "Okay, we're letting all the newbies into the Inner Circle." He basically said, "Keeping brothers out of the Inner Circle just they're Primaris is actually a silly policy. If a Brother is worthy, let him in."

He's actually pushing for merit-based promotion.

 Duskweaver wrote:
They've had the circles within circles / hunt for the Fallen / stubbornly suspicious of outsiders stuff since Codex Angels of Death in 2nd edition / 1996. And that is part of what people who actually play DA have liked about them for the past 23 years. So I don't know what the hell you two are talking about.

Funny I guess my Dark Angels army is not something I play with - wierd cos I thought i did - but hey you must be right. Some of use remember the original DA lore....

 Duskweaver wrote:
I'm not 'pissed' about anything, just rolling my eyes a bit at GW's apparent willingness to throw out 23 years' worth of DA characterisation to sell some new plastic crack.

"We've spent 10,000 years not trusting anyone and obsessing over our Secret Shame (TM), but hey Azrael gave a speech so now just let's forget all that." - Some Random Dark Angel

Why the feth would they mistrust someone just because they have couple of extra organs? I can understand why they would distrust the original Mars-produced Primaris, but there is exactly zero reason to mistrust any of the Primaris they have themselves produced during the last century or the upgraded ones.

 bullyboy wrote:

Voss wrote:

 bullyboy wrote:
Speaking of fluff, the DAs went from mistrusting Primaris to a full on acceptance endorsed by Azrael to the Inner Circle in recent PA story. And to be honest, I fully embrace it. Either you say they mistrust them and don't include the option for them in the army (too late), or they are embraced in their entirety.

The thing is, they had a moment of division, a way to start differentiating the thirty-one flavors of marines (and wider divisions in the Imperium, such as Guilliman's secular practicality vs the 'traditional' Imperial religious zeal), and just... opted not to do that with anyone who had doubts about the primaris.

It was a plot point that just... didn't go anywhere, and went nowhere absurdly quickly, to the point that there was no reason to introduce it in the first place. 8th edition already picked up a century later in the timeline. At year 100 it was 'some still have doubts,' and now at maybe year 101ish, its all fine and good. They could have just said 'and a century later, everybody is fine with primaris' when they introduced them.

Exactly. I was all for the DA distrust in the beginning, but if you're not going to follow that with rules, just get rid of that piece of fluff and move on. Of course GW were never going to restrict new marine sales to DAs, so why pretend there is a story there that may prevent DA from incorporating them.

Of course you can have DA distrust primaris AND have primaris usable in DA. Not every DA knows anything all that big. Actually majority of them are just regular marines who have no idea whatsoever about fallen etc and are fighting xenos, chaos etc just as any other marine chapter.

Where does it say primaris marines must be part of inner circle to begin with to sell them to DA players? No IC primaris. Problem solved. It's not even big deal whether model is IC or not. The rule isn't that useful to begin with. Actually better to not have IC rule and be cheaper...

 Duskweaver wrote:
"Yeah, you know that interesting character trait that was one of the major defining features of this faction for seven editions? It was getting in the way of flogging new minis, so we got rid of it." - Someone at GW

Having a faction gimp itself because of "story" just doesn't cut it for a competitive table top game.

Either this is a story that we read and treat its canon like gospel, or it's a table top game we play with no regard for the canon. I do not believe we can have it both ways.

 Togusa wrote:

 Duskweaver wrote:
"Yeah, you know that interesting character trait that was one of the major defining features of this faction for seven editions? It was getting in the way of flogging new minis, so we got rid of it." - Someone at GW

Having a faction gimp itself because of "story" just doesn't cut it for a competitive table top game.

Either this is a story that we read and treat its canon like gospel, or it's a table top game we play with no regard for the canon. I do not believe we can have it both ways.

The Dark Eldar would like a word, please...

 Togusa wrote:

 Duskweaver wrote:
"Yeah, you know that interesting character trait that was one of the major defining features of this faction for seven editions? It was getting in the way of flogging new minis, so we got rid of it." - Someone at GW

Having a faction gimp itself because of "story" just doesn't cut it for a competitive table top game.

Either this is a story that we read and treat its canon like gospel, or it's a table top game we play with no regard for the canon. I do not believe we can have it both ways.

The DA distrusting primaris to the degree suggested ironically stems from the gamey nature of the product. In universe this is just another founding, but to players it's "omg my army has been squatted".

JSG wrote:

The DA distrusting primaris to the degree suggested ironically stems from the gamey nature of the product. In universe this is just another founding, but to players it's "omg my army has been squatted".

Indeed!

 Duskweaver wrote:
I'm not 'pissed' about anything, just rolling my eyes a bit at GW's apparent willingness to throw out 23 years' worth of DA characterisation to sell some new plastic crack.

"We've spent 10,000 years not trusting anyone and obsessing over our Secret Shame (TM), but hey Azrael gave a speech so now just let's forget all that." - Some Random Dark Angel

Look, if you WANT to dislike the new developments there will always be a way to do it. But in a realistic sense this is false binary; they aren't completely mistrusting or completely trusting, they are somewhere in-between. Anyone paying attention to quality of fluff would know that.

JSG wrote:

 Togusa wrote:

 Duskweaver wrote:
"Yeah, you know that interesting character trait that was one of the major defining features of this faction for seven editions? It was getting in the way of flogging new minis, so we got rid of it." - Someone at GW

Having a faction gimp itself because of "story" just doesn't cut it for a competitive table top game.

Either this is a story that we read and treat its canon like gospel, or it's a table top game we play with no regard for the canon. I do not believe we can have it both ways.

The DA distrusting primaris to the degree suggested ironically stems from the gamey nature of the product. In universe this is just another founding, but to players it's "omg my army has been squatted".

That is why I generally pay not mind to the stories for this game.

Sooooooo... any news on the new PA book yet? The more thousand sons-ey the bettee.

 Manfred von Drakken wrote:

 Togusa wrote:

 Duskweaver wrote:
"Yeah, you know that interesting character trait that was one of the major defining features of this faction for seven editions? It was getting in the way of flogging new minis, so we got rid of it." - Someone at GW

Having a faction gimp itself because of "story" just doesn't cut it for a competitive table top game.

Either this is a story that we read and treat its canon like gospel, or it's a table top game we play with no regard for the canon. I do not believe we can have it both ways.

The Dark Eldar would like a word, please...

This implies the story reason for gimping Dark Eldar is tangible rather than the asspull it is

DaPino wrote:
Sooooooo... any news on the new PA book yet? The more thousand sons-ey the bettee.

No news, but can i interest you in some fluff articles?

MiguelFelstone wrote:

DaPino wrote:
Sooooooo... any news on the new PA book yet? The more thousand sons-ey the bettee.

No news, but can i interest you in some fluff articles?

So far by the far the best element is the stories released for free.

 Manfred von Drakken wrote:

 Togusa wrote:

 Duskweaver wrote:
"Yeah, you know that interesting character trait that was one of the major defining features of this faction for seven editions? It was getting in the way of flogging new minis, so we got rid of it." - Someone at GW

Having a faction gimp itself because of "story" just doesn't cut it for a competitive table top game.

Either this is a story that we read and treat its canon like gospel, or it's a table top game we play with no regard for the canon. I do not believe we can have it both ways.

The Dark Eldar would like a word, please...

DE don't regularly get their entire line updated with hordes of brand new models. They aren't split in to 12 different factions, and they aren't scared of new technology.

I don't get the critics on the evolution of the fluff of the DA personally (and I am an old DA player). Yes Azrael discourse is indeed shocking but he is clearly taking this stance because Luther is free and out in the open - something his speech is clearly indirectly referencing. The DA necessity to go beyond simply defending the secret has been advanced for a few years now through various plot points. And Azrael has never really been presented as the most obsessed of the DA - what the story could gain from now is a little insight on how some of the most extreme member of the inner circle, such as Asmodai, are taking Azrael's stance on primaris.
This is why I always thought that the introduction of the primaris in the DA should have created some massive event involving Asmodai (and maybe even his death or his treason ?), but sadly this old madman seems to be rather quiet.

 Duskweaver wrote:
"We've spent 10,000 years not trusting anyone and obsessing over our Secret Shame (TM), but hey Azrael gave a speech so now just let's forget all that." - Some Random Dark Angel

Woah, even random Dark Angels knows the 10 000 years of Dark Angels history, and knows of the Secret Shame™ ? And I though those guys were secretive about their past lol.

Apologies for the Facebook link, but this just came up showing a helmeted head variant for Lazarus and a Power Fist+bolter option.

That's pretty awesome. Though I wish the helmeted version was the helmet he was holding. This is the third time we can have a dark angel with the sword on the helmet, since the lieutenant and the upgrade sprue come with that same head, though the little bumps are new.

I wouldn't be shocked if the 'wings' are optional for the helmeted head.

The Tzeentch preview for AoS says this:

Every time a Pink Horror is slain, you add two Blue Horrors to the unit. Every time a Blue Horror is slain, you get a base of Brimstone Horrors. Don’t have the models? Don’t worry! You can choose to inflict mortal wounds instead. The cost of Horrors has been upped to compensate for this, but these spell-slinging nesting dolls wreak more arcane havoc than ever before.

I do hope Horrors are tweaked in 40K with this next PA book, and that their cost is increased to represent the splitting nature (rather than needing to purchase separate units of Blue and Brimstone horrors).

 H.B.M.C. wrote:
The Tzeentch preview for AoS says this:

Every time a Pink Horror is slain, you add two Blue Horrors to the unit. Every time a Blue Horror is slain, you get a base of Brimstone Horrors. Don’t have the models? Don’t worry! You can choose to inflict mortal wounds instead. The cost of Horrors has been upped to compensate for this, but these spell-slinging nesting dolls wreak more arcane havoc than ever before.

I do hope Horrors are tweaked in 40K with this next PA book, and that their cost is increased to represent the splitting nature (rather than needing to purchase separate units of Blue and Brimstone horrors).

Nah, Tzeentch has been 1,000,000% cooler in AOS than 40k for ages now. Tzeentch in 40k is soooooo boooooring.

 Kanluwen wrote:
I wouldn't be shocked if the 'wings' are optional for the helmeted head.

Here's hoping. Otherwise I'll probably just pop a Forgeworld DA helmet on this guy and call it good.

Honestly after seeing these pics, am I the only one who thinks this basically confirms this model can be built as "Lazarus" OR a generic Company Master?

 Kanluwen wrote:

Spoiler:

Apologies for the Facebook link, but this just came up showing a helmeted head variant for Lazarus and a Power Fist+bolter option.

So comparing him with the other picture, he has at least 4 different arms and 3 different heads. They should definitely do this more often.

Is he wielding an old style Bolter? It doesn't look Primaris.

GaroRobe wrote:
Is he wielding an old style Bolter? It doesn't look Primaris.

Yeah, you're not wrong...it's got the banana clip which I didn't think primaris boltguns had...