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Audustum wrote:

stratigo wrote:
Almost nothing drops mortarion in one turn. Like, it's literal titans that are capable of it.

He's going to be the heart of many a DG list because he is that hard to kill and has that much effect on the board. He's pretty brutal. And it'll be half a year to almost a year before he gets an adjustment.

He's still not even the best thing about new DG.

I mean, armies are figuring out ways. Ultramarines and Deathwatch seem able to down him with 3 units of Eradicators/Hellblasters next to Guilliman or a Watch Master. Not the worst thing in the world. Others are going to pop up too.

The problem is for us Custodes because Death Guard has been redesigned as something we hate. It's super tanky, like us, but does a lot of damage, not like us. It also has a lot of non-psychic MW which is extra bad for us.

I still think Achillus Dread shooting + charging is likely the best solution. You'll need Eternal Penitent on all 3.

Goonhammer did the math, a fully buffed Ultramarine eradicator squad does not one round him with any regularity.

Audustum wrote:

Tiberias wrote:
@Audustum:
Thabks for doing the math! One thing though, the allarus captain with admonimortis wounds on 4s, except if you spend the +1to wound strat on him, but the achillus would be the better target for that though as you said. So the dmg of the captain might go down a smidge.
What about giving the allarus captain all seeing annihilator as his wl trait to give him an the achillus exploding 6s to hit? That might boost the melee dmg a bit.

One consideration in all of this is though you probably won't get all of that dmg through, even if you make all the charges and roll well, simply because of the fact that the DG player will 100% interrupt with morty and in all probability kill one of the achillus.

I wrote 3 but did the math with 4 I believes so math should be good, sorry!

I thought about Annihilator but Morty shuts off aura benefits within 3" so it won't help anyone, even the Captain. He doesn't reduce their range to 0, he just shuts them off. Bane gets by because it's not an aura at all.

Counter-offensive is the big wrinkle in any melee plan. You need to either get the DG player to use it somewhere else or be down on CP enough it's safe (unlikely).

Another math piece: 10 Jetbikes, on the charge (so they get to re-roll wounds), only do ~7-~8 wounds to him. That's 850 points of Jetbike. Not a good solution.

You are obviously right, I forgot about his ability to shut down auras.....damn he really nasty! Well again thanks for doing the math

Flatly, there really isn't any good way for custodes to play against death guard outside maybe the ares. And... who wants to buy an ares?

stratigo wrote:

Audustum wrote:

stratigo wrote:
Almost nothing drops mortarion in one turn. Like, it's literal titans that are capable of it.

He's going to be the heart of many a DG list because he is that hard to kill and has that much effect on the board. He's pretty brutal. And it'll be half a year to almost a year before he gets an adjustment.

He's still not even the best thing about new DG.

I mean, armies are figuring out ways. Ultramarines and Deathwatch seem able to down him with 3 units of Eradicators/Hellblasters next to Guilliman or a Watch Master. Not the worst thing in the world. Others are going to pop up too.

The problem is for us Custodes because Death Guard has been redesigned as something we hate. It's super tanky, like us, but does a lot of damage, not like us. It also has a lot of non-psychic MW which is extra bad for us.

I still think Achillus Dread shooting + charging is likely the best solution. You'll need Eternal Penitent on all 3.

Goonhammer did the math, a fully buffed Ultramarine eradicator squad does not one round him with any regularity.

Yeah, that's why I said 3 units of Eradicators and/or Hellblasters (max size squad, fully buffed). As an example, 15 Eradicators with a Watch Master (and Malleus on one set of 5, combat squad it out of a Kill Team) is:

8.89 average wounds for the Malleus 5.
13.83 average wounds for the non-Malleus 10 (and pick the protocol that lets them re-roll 1's to wound against LoW and Heavy Supports if facing Morty's, obviously).

This is conservative averaging as I did it assuming the Eradicators were outside 12" and rounded down (damage averages 5.5 per successful wound, pre-FNP, I lowered that to 4).

To be fair, Eradicators are, at most, 310 points.

They SHOULDN’T be deleting a unit that’s half again their cost.

 JNAProductions wrote:
To be fair, Eradicators are, at most, 310 points.

They SHOULDN’T be deleting a unit that’s half again their cost.

Agreed.

Audustum wrote:

stratigo wrote:

Audustum wrote:

stratigo wrote:
Almost nothing drops mortarion in one turn. Like, it's literal titans that are capable of it.

He's going to be the heart of many a DG list because he is that hard to kill and has that much effect on the board. He's pretty brutal. And it'll be half a year to almost a year before he gets an adjustment.

He's still not even the best thing about new DG.

I mean, armies are figuring out ways. Ultramarines and Deathwatch seem able to down him with 3 units of Eradicators/Hellblasters next to Guilliman or a Watch Master. Not the worst thing in the world. Others are going to pop up too.

The problem is for us Custodes because Death Guard has been redesigned as something we hate. It's super tanky, like us, but does a lot of damage, not like us. It also has a lot of non-psychic MW which is extra bad for us.

I still think Achillus Dread shooting + charging is likely the best solution. You'll need Eternal Penitent on all 3.

Goonhammer did the math, a fully buffed Ultramarine eradicator squad does not one round him with any regularity.

Yeah, that's why I said 3 units of Eradicators and/or Hellblasters (max size squad, fully buffed). As an example, 15 Eradicators with a Watch Master (and Malleus on one set of 5, combat squad it out of a Kill Team) is:

8.89 average wounds for the Malleus 5.
13.83 average wounds for the non-Malleus 10 (and pick the protocol that lets them re-roll 1's to wound against LoW and Heavy Supports if facing Morty's, obviously).

This is conservative averaging as I did it assuming the Eradicators were outside 12" and rounded down (damage averages 5.5 per successful wound, pre-FNP, I lowered that to 4).

Three units is overkill for anything else though and is leaving your list dramatically vulnerable in other ways

Didn't I read somewhere that Morty has a "always fight first" ability or stratagem, that basically allows him to straight up slaughter chargers?

FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:
Didn't I read somewhere that Morty has a "always fight first" ability or stratagem, that basically allows him to straight up slaughter chargers?

Not that I heard, but if a Blightspawn is nearby he has an aura to make chargers fight last (some kind of noxious stench).


Automatically Appended Next Post:

stratigo wrote:

Audustum wrote:

stratigo wrote:

Audustum wrote:

stratigo wrote:
Almost nothing drops mortarion in one turn. Like, it's literal titans that are capable of it.

He's going to be the heart of many a DG list because he is that hard to kill and has that much effect on the board. He's pretty brutal. And it'll be half a year to almost a year before he gets an adjustment.

He's still not even the best thing about new DG.

I mean, armies are figuring out ways. Ultramarines and Deathwatch seem able to down him with 3 units of Eradicators/Hellblasters next to Guilliman or a Watch Master. Not the worst thing in the world. Others are going to pop up too.

The problem is for us Custodes because Death Guard has been redesigned as something we hate. It's super tanky, like us, but does a lot of damage, not like us. It also has a lot of non-psychic MW which is extra bad for us.

I still think Achillus Dread shooting + charging is likely the best solution. You'll need Eternal Penitent on all 3.

Goonhammer did the math, a fully buffed Ultramarine eradicator squad does not one round him with any regularity.

Yeah, that's why I said 3 units of Eradicators and/or Hellblasters (max size squad, fully buffed). As an example, 15 Eradicators with a Watch Master (and Malleus on one set of 5, combat squad it out of a Kill Team) is:

8.89 average wounds for the Malleus 5.
13.83 average wounds for the non-Malleus 10 (and pick the protocol that lets them re-roll 1's to wound against LoW and Heavy Supports if facing Morty's, obviously).

This is conservative averaging as I did it assuming the Eradicators were outside 12" and rounded down (damage averages 5.5 per successful wound, pre-FNP, I lowered that to 4).

Three units is overkill for anything else though and is leaving your list dramatically vulnerable in other ways

I am getting into Deathwatch and I found a big squad of Eradicators + Plasma Inceptors + Hellblasters pretty affordable.

I know I will eventually face Morty. I plan a Telemon, Aquillon terminator, Aquilus dread combo to counter him. Praying it works.

How does a squad 7 of missile bikes with a Captain that has Lockwarden (-1 to all saves) do against Morty? I feel like a ton of S8 D6 shots forcing him to take 5++ Invuln saves would at least be better than any other shooting....If my math hammer is correct that's 9 damage in one round of shooting. If they charge after that, that is 9 more damage. Lock Warden really messes up his day.

EDIT: Forgot the FNP, that drops it to 12 total wounds. My bad.

FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:
How does a squad 7 of missile bikes with a Captain that has Lockwarden (-1 to all saves) do against Morty? I feel like a ton of S8 D6 shots forcing him to take 5++ Invuln saves would at least be better than any other shooting....If my math hammer is correct that's 9 damage in one round of shooting. If they charge after that, that is 9 more damage. Lock Warden really messes up his day.

EDIT: Forgot the FNP, that drops it to 12 total wounds. My bad.

My mathammer says the 8 Jetbikes will deal, on average, 3.8. Lockwarden only affects the warlord's attacks, unfortunately.

Audustum wrote:

FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:
How does a squad 7 of missile bikes with a Captain that has Lockwarden (-1 to all saves) do against Morty? I feel like a ton of S8 D6 shots forcing him to take 5++ Invuln saves would at least be better than any other shooting....If my math hammer is correct that's 9 damage in one round of shooting. If they charge after that, that is 9 more damage. Lock Warden really messes up his day.

EDIT: Forgot the FNP, that drops it to 12 total wounds. My bad.

My mathammer says the 8 Jetbikes will deal, on average, 3.8. Lockwarden only affects the warlord's attacks, unfortunately.

Thank you! you just saved me from a very ugly loss at the hands of misunderstanding a rule. I thought it was all attacks against a model targeted by the lock warden. oh well!

FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:

Audustum wrote:

FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:
How does a squad 7 of missile bikes with a Captain that has Lockwarden (-1 to all saves) do against Morty? I feel like a ton of S8 D6 shots forcing him to take 5++ Invuln saves would at least be better than any other shooting....If my math hammer is correct that's 9 damage in one round of shooting. If they charge after that, that is 9 more damage. Lock Warden really messes up his day.

EDIT: Forgot the FNP, that drops it to 12 total wounds. My bad.

My mathammer says the 8 Jetbikes will deal, on average, 3.8. Lockwarden only affects the warlord's attacks, unfortunately.

Thank you! you just saved me from a very ugly loss at the hands of misunderstanding a rule. I thought it was all attacks against a model targeted by the lock warden. oh well!

Glad to help and good luck! Let us know how it goes!

Really silly question:

How many wounds would get through on a Death Strike With Vortex Missile Strat, against Morty? Does he count as Titanic?

FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:
Really silly question:

How many wounds would get through on a Death Strike With Vortex Missile Strat, against Morty? Does he count as Titanic?

Morty does not count as Titanic (keyword).

You sure pick interesting ones!

3D6 shots averages 12 shots. BS4+ means 6 hits (assuming Miasma is not cast on Morty). Vortex Missile adds 3 more hits for 9 total. Morty's FNP takes 3 off. 6 MW get through. You then have a 1 in 6 chance of doing 1D6 more MW.

3 Deathstrikes would almost get him, on average. 6 MW from the Vortex Missile one. 8 from the combined other 2. Gives you 14W and 3D6 to fish for a 6 for 1D6 more MW.

It's silly how hard Morty is to kill now. It's almost DISGUSTING. Buy seriously, without the Ares, our Bikes with missiles might be the only option. I hope Burst missile net gets some sort of buff, that would almost make it worth it. How do our dick bikes with the lasers do?

So..a few days ago I had a battle vs a friends Tempestus Scions...I got completely slaughtered and thought to myself "arent Custodes supposed to be top tier and Astra kinda bad" but maybe it was just bad playing on my part.


Anyway these were the forces:

1500p game, Surround and destroy

AC Patrol Shadowkeepers:
1 Shieldcaptain on dawneagle
4 Custodians with S/B
3 Vertus Praetors (2 with Hurricane stormbolters, 1 with salvo-launcher)
1 Telemon with 2 Arachnus
1 Contemptor Galatus
3 Aquilon with twin adrathic/solerite

+ Agents of the Imperium 1 Vindicare assassin

vs

Astra Battalion:
133rd Lambdan Lions
Agents of the imperium:Lord Hector Rex
Tempestor Prime x 2
Scions
5xScions with frag/krak + hot-shot lasgun
4xScions with frak/krak + plasma gun
1 Tempestor with hot-shot las pistol
Scions
5xScions with frag/krak + hot-shot lasgun
4xScions with frak/krak + hot-shot volley gun
1 Tempestor with hot-shot las pistol
Scions
4xScions with frag/krak + hot-shot lasgun
1 Tempestor with hot-shot las pistol
Astropath
Command Squad
4xScions with frak/krak + hot-shot volley gun
Valkyrie with Multilaser/hellstrike missiles/Advanced Countermeasures/heavy Boltersx4
Taurox Prime w Gatling + hot -shot volley guns
Taurox Prime w Taurox Missile Launcher + 2 Autocannons
Taurox Prime w Taurox Missile Launcher + 2 Autocannons

+

Astra Patrol Detachment
Tempestor Prime
Scions
5xScions with frag/krak + hot-shot lasgun
4xScions with frag/krak + meltagun
1 Tempestor with hot-shot las pistol
Scions
5xScions with frag/krak + hot-shot lasgun
4xScions with frag/krak + meltagun
1 Tempestor with hot-shot las pistol
Command Squad
4xScions with frag/krak + meltagun


So, he gets first turn, flies his valkyrie into my deployment zone and drops a squad next to my Telemon standing on one of the objectives, shoots at him with the Valkyrie, but only manages to do 1 wound,
then he takes a few potshots at my vindicare with his vehicles but only manages to wound him slightly. All my other units were hiding or out of range.

My turn my army moved as far as they could in the movement turn but have no good targets since all are hiding or are in the tauroxes
I unload on the valkyrie with the telemon taking it to 3 wounds and not having los on any char with my vindicare, shoots penetrator rounds at valkyrie taking it to one wound. Telemon and guardians cant move since they need to stay on the objectives

Second turn the carnage begins, he flies out of the battlefield with the 1-wound Valkyrie, deep strikes in the command squads close to my telemon and the rest unload from the tauroxes close to my biker squads. He unloads on my Telemon with 8 meltaguns, BS 3 rerolling 1s, rerolling wounds promptly killing it, and 4 plasma rapidfire + 4 meltas and a gakload of hot-las on bikers, killing all of them.

By now he had already won
my turn, im left with 4 guardians on one objective, the galatus and shield-captain charging forward and deep-striking in my aquilons, but having to do it close to the tauroxes out of range of the auspex scan possible squads. I managed to kill one of them, Shield-captain attacks Hector but fails to kill him
Galatus fails charge against one Taurox.

Anyways, the battle was over, since he could just take his time falling back in his movement phase and then shooting my guys down


So, how the heck do you deal with that amount of alpha strike, high strength, at least -3 AP, high dmg shooting as custodes? At the same time having to hold objectives etc. My imperial knights have also struggled against this force.

Ares + 2 grav tanks kills him in one turn fairly regularly, but not many people are gonna wanna run the 2 tanks atm.

 Eihnlazer wrote:
Ares + 2 grav tanks kills him in one turn fairly regularly, but not many people are gonna wanna run the 2 tanks atm.

Because you'll probably lose on primaries.

It's tough to comment on one battle as far as play goes, but it seems you got a little unlucky on the Telemon dying to 8 melta guns. The Shadow keeper strat and/or Emperors Auspice would've saved him for sure.

As far as your list goes, some of the units seem a bit toothless. Telemon and Shield Guard are good, but your Terminators and bike squad at 3 men each just won't do much. The are your hammer units and should wreck whatever they charge, as well as take a bit of punishment to knock out. A 3 man unit is not worth using defensive strats on and I find they tend to be easy to wipe out.

I would bump the terminators up to 5 and take a vexilla with the intent to teleport homer them. That way they will get in a garunteed charge and 5 termies should smash up anything. Lose the Vindicate for sure, they suck. Perhaps dump the bikes or the Galatus to allow points to bulk out the termies.

Vex is definitely worth taking in any list with terminators and even some without atm with his price reduction.

He was too expensive before but i wasnt expecting them to just give him the banner for free. Now the magnifica is worth it again for bike and dread heavy lists, where the +1 attack you take on infantry heavy lists.

Generally, unless you are expecting to do a lot of warlord popping,, Allarus are better than Vindicare for killing characters, better to take them and let your opponent deal with them. There is no really good synegy atm with Custodes and Any assassin. All our built in units do the job better.

Is it just me or did your opponent take a purposely weak list with Command squads that were just las guns? Why not go melta/plasma?

Anyway, your list is a little all over the place, you may be going fo TAC, but you are left as others have said, toothless.

Hope you had a good game at least.

EDIT:

And remember, after the battle, you were still declared the winner on imperial records, and his whole army was summarily executed.

Totto wrote:
So..a few days ago I had a battle vs a friends Tempestus Scions...I got completely slaughtered and thought to myself "arent Custodes supposed to be top tier and Astra kinda bad" but maybe it was just bad playing on my part.


Anyway these were the forces:

1500p game, Surround and destroy

AC Patrol Shadowkeepers:
1 Shieldcaptain on dawneagle
4 Custodians with S/B
3 Vertus Praetors (2 with Hurricane stormbolters, 1 with salvo-launcher)
1 Telemon with 2 Arachnus
1 Contemptor Galatus
3 Aquilon with twin adrathic/solerite

+ Agents of the Imperium 1 Vindicare assassin

vs

Astra Battalion:
133rd Lambdan Lions
Agents of the imperium:Lord Hector Rex
Tempestor Prime x 2
Scions
5xScions with frag/krak + hot-shot lasgun
4xScions with frak/krak + plasma gun
1 Tempestor with hot-shot las pistol
Scions
5xScions with frag/krak + hot-shot lasgun
4xScions with frak/krak + hot-shot volley gun
1 Tempestor with hot-shot las pistol
Scions
4xScions with frag/krak + hot-shot lasgun
1 Tempestor with hot-shot las pistol
Astropath
Command Squad
4xScions with frak/krak + hot-shot volley gun
Valkyrie with Multilaser/hellstrike missiles/Advanced Countermeasures/heavy Boltersx4
Taurox Prime w Gatling + hot -shot volley guns
Taurox Prime w Taurox Missile Launcher + 2 Autocannons
Taurox Prime w Taurox Missile Launcher + 2 Autocannons

+

Astra Patrol Detachment
Tempestor Prime
Scions
5xScions with frag/krak + hot-shot lasgun
4xScions with frag/krak + meltagun
1 Tempestor with hot-shot las pistol
Scions
5xScions with frag/krak + hot-shot lasgun
4xScions with frag/krak + meltagun
1 Tempestor with hot-shot las pistol
Command Squad
4xScions with frag/krak + meltagun


So, he gets first turn, flies his valkyrie into my deployment zone and drops a squad next to my Telemon standing on one of the objectives, shoots at him with the Valkyrie, but only manages to do 1 wound,
then he takes a few potshots at my vindicare with his vehicles but only manages to wound him slightly. All my other units were hiding or out of range.

My turn my army moved as far as they could in the movement turn but have no good targets since all are hiding or are in the tauroxes
I unload on the valkyrie with the telemon taking it to 3 wounds and not having los on any char with my vindicare, shoots penetrator rounds at valkyrie taking it to one wound. Telemon and guardians cant move since they need to stay on the objectives

Second turn the carnage begins, he flies out of the battlefield with the 1-wound Valkyrie, deep strikes in the command squads close to my telemon and the rest unload from the tauroxes close to my biker squads. He unloads on my Telemon with 8 meltaguns, BS 3 rerolling 1s, rerolling wounds promptly killing it, and 4 plasma rapidfire + 4 meltas and a gakload of hot-las on bikers, killing all of them.

By now he had already won
my turn, im left with 4 guardians on one objective, the galatus and shield-captain charging forward and deep-striking in my aquilons, but having to do it close to the tauroxes out of range of the auspex scan possible squads. I managed to kill one of them, Shield-captain attacks Hector but fails to kill him
Galatus fails charge against one Taurox.

Anyways, the battle was over, since he could just take his time falling back in his movement phase and then shooting my guys down


So, how the heck do you deal with that amount of alpha strike, high strength, at least -3 AP, high dmg shooting as custodes? At the same time having to hold objectives etc. My imperial knights have also struggled against this force.

Emperor's Auspice the melta on your Telemon is my first recommendation (FYI, even without Emperor's Auspice, 8 Melta shots, re-rolling 1's to Hit, in melta range, is only 5-6 wounds average on a Telemon, anything more is bad luck).

My second is don't deep strike units UNLESS:

1. You have a source of re-roll charges at the very minimum (Dread Host).
2. You want the unit's shooting more than it's melee (Allarus against characters).
3. It's a throwaway to score something like deploy scramblers (we don't really have these).

My third recommendation: Take more Jetbikes over Terminators. Your opponent is fond of flying vehicles it seems. Jetbikes can charge those and make them pay. Drop all Terminators from the list for Jetbikes.

My fourth recommendation: Decide on a role for your Jetbikes! Don't split them! If you want them to kill the flyers, give them ALL salvo-missiles and have them shoot/charge flyers. If you want them to harvest infantry and charge whatever, give them ALL hurricane bolters and wipe his squads off the board. Remember, Salvo missiles get +1 to Hit on the flyers (negating their hard to hit ability).

My fifth recommendation: Bring a -1 to Hit flag. It's super important against Guard (Tau too).

My sixth recommendation: Don't forget Arcane Genetic Alchemy (usable on Infantry AND Jetbikes). If your opponent has a blizzard of high strength weapons, throw this on a target (and Emperor's Auspice on a DIFFERENT target if it needs protection).

My seventh recommendation: Since I recommend taking Jetbikes, go Solar Watch over Shadowkeepers. Put the Jetbike Captain with them. 21" Move+Advance and shooting on 3's, re-rolling 1's, with a big squad can punch serious holes T1. There's not much that can hide from it.

My eighth recommendation: Choose objectives wisely. You want Bring It Down (because of his vehicles), Grind Them Down/Thin Their Ranks and Map-Specific/Domination/Linebreaker depending on map.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:
It's silly how hard Morty is to kill now. It's almost DISGUSTING. Buy seriously, without the Ares, our Bikes with missiles might be the only option. I hope Burst missile net gets some sort of buff, that would almost make it worth it. How do our dick bikes with the lasers do?

Not great. 1 Agamatus with Twin-Las Pulsar averages ~.65-.80 wounds on Morty (49% chance of 0). 10 them would average ~6-8 wounds (and cost about 1,000 points).

Man, I am beginning to think the best way to defeat Morty is to make him irrelevent? Keep away with Jetbikes and Missiles? Just keep shooting and running away from him. He can't catch anything with his movement speed, except for infantry. So our tanks and bikes should be able to just kite him around the table? Obviously this means no infantry bare minimum, no dreads, just flyers. The Ares would be good for an all flyers list.

2x bike captains salvo launchers
2x5 bikes Salvo launchers
Ares gunship
2x3 sag guard
1x4 sag guard
1980? Is there a better way to optimize a flyer list?

FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:
Man, I am beginning to think the best way to defeat Morty is to make him irrelevent? Keep away with Jetbikes and Missiles? Just keep shooting and running away from him. He can't catch anything with his movement speed, except for infantry. So our tanks and bikes should be able to just kite him around the table? Obviously this means no infantry bare minimum, no dreads, just flyers. The Ares would be good for an all flyers list.

2x bike captains salvo launchers
2x5 bikes Salvo launchers
Ares gunship
2x3 sag guard
1x4 sag guard
1980? Is there a better way to optimize a flyer list?

The trick is, indeed, looking to kill the army around morty. You can hold him up with a fair sized shield squad with some Strat support. Not for too long because he pumps mortals as well as just damage.

Thing is, he's fast enough to, uh, not get caught by foot guard.

FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:
Generally, unless you are expecting to do a lot of warlord popping,, Allarus are better than Vindicare for killing characters, better to take them and let your opponent deal with them. There is no really good synegy atm with Custodes and Any assassin. All our built in units do the job better.

Is it just me or did your opponent take a purposely weak list with Command squads that were just las guns? Why not go melta/plasma?

Anyway, your list is a little all over the place, you may be going fo TAC, but you are left as others have said, toothless.

Hope you had a good game at least.

EDIT:

And remember, after the battle, you were still declared the winner on imperial records, and his whole army was summarily executed.

Haha, love that last line!

Audustum wrote:

Totto wrote:
So..a few days ago I had a battle vs a friends Tempestus Scions...I got completely slaughtered and thought to myself "arent Custodes supposed to be top tier and Astra kinda bad" but maybe it was just bad playing on my part.


Anyway these were the forces:

1500p game, Surround and destroy

AC Patrol Shadowkeepers:
1 Shieldcaptain on dawneagle
4 Custodians with S/B
3 Vertus Praetors (2 with Hurricane stormbolters, 1 with salvo-launcher)
1 Telemon with 2 Arachnus
1 Contemptor Galatus
3 Aquilon with twin adrathic/solerite

+ Agents of the Imperium 1 Vindicare assassin

vs

Astra Battalion:
133rd Lambdan Lions
Agents of the imperium:Lord Hector Rex
Tempestor Prime x 2
Scions
5xScions with frag/krak + hot-shot lasgun
4xScions with frak/krak + plasma gun
1 Tempestor with hot-shot las pistol
Scions
5xScions with frag/krak + hot-shot lasgun
4xScions with frak/krak + hot-shot volley gun
1 Tempestor with hot-shot las pistol
Scions
4xScions with frag/krak + hot-shot lasgun
1 Tempestor with hot-shot las pistol
Astropath
Command Squad
4xScions with frak/krak + hot-shot volley gun
Valkyrie with Multilaser/hellstrike missiles/Advanced Countermeasures/heavy Boltersx4
Taurox Prime w Gatling + hot -shot volley guns
Taurox Prime w Taurox Missile Launcher + 2 Autocannons
Taurox Prime w Taurox Missile Launcher + 2 Autocannons

+

Astra Patrol Detachment
Tempestor Prime
Scions
5xScions with frag/krak + hot-shot lasgun
4xScions with frag/krak + meltagun
1 Tempestor with hot-shot las pistol
Scions
5xScions with frag/krak + hot-shot lasgun
4xScions with frag/krak + meltagun
1 Tempestor with hot-shot las pistol
Command Squad
4xScions with frag/krak + meltagun


So, he gets first turn, flies his valkyrie into my deployment zone and drops a squad next to my Telemon standing on one of the objectives, shoots at him with the Valkyrie, but only manages to do 1 wound,
then he takes a few potshots at my vindicare with his vehicles but only manages to wound him slightly. All my other units were hiding or out of range.

My turn my army moved as far as they could in the movement turn but have no good targets since all are hiding or are in the tauroxes
I unload on the valkyrie with the telemon taking it to 3 wounds and not having los on any char with my vindicare, shoots penetrator rounds at valkyrie taking it to one wound. Telemon and guardians cant move since they need to stay on the objectives

Second turn the carnage begins, he flies out of the battlefield with the 1-wound Valkyrie, deep strikes in the command squads close to my telemon and the rest unload from the tauroxes close to my biker squads. He unloads on my Telemon with 8 meltaguns, BS 3 rerolling 1s, rerolling wounds promptly killing it, and 4 plasma rapidfire + 4 meltas and a gakload of hot-las on bikers, killing all of them.

By now he had already won
my turn, im left with 4 guardians on one objective, the galatus and shield-captain charging forward and deep-striking in my aquilons, but having to do it close to the tauroxes out of range of the auspex scan possible squads. I managed to kill one of them, Shield-captain attacks Hector but fails to kill him
Galatus fails charge against one Taurox.

Anyways, the battle was over, since he could just take his time falling back in his movement phase and then shooting my guys down


So, how the heck do you deal with that amount of alpha strike, high strength, at least -3 AP, high dmg shooting as custodes? At the same time having to hold objectives etc. My imperial knights have also struggled against this force.

Emperor's Auspice the melta on your Telemon is my first recommendation (FYI, even without Emperor's Auspice, 8 Melta shots, re-rolling 1's to Hit, in melta range, is only 5-6 wounds average on a Telemon, anything more is bad luck).

My second is don't deep strike units UNLESS:

1. You have a source of re-roll charges at the very minimum (Dread Host).
2. You want the unit's shooting more than it's melee (Allarus against characters).
3. It's a throwaway to score something like deploy scramblers (we don't really have these).

My third recommendation: Take more Jetbikes over Terminators. Your opponent is fond of flying vehicles it seems. Jetbikes can charge those and make them pay. Drop all Terminators from the list for Jetbikes.

My fourth recommendation: Decide on a role for your Jetbikes! Don't split them! If you want them to kill the flyers, give them ALL salvo-missiles and have them shoot/charge flyers. If you want them to harvest infantry and charge whatever, give them ALL hurricane bolters and wipe his squads off the board. Remember, Salvo missiles get +1 to Hit on the flyers (negating their hard to hit ability).

My fifth recommendation: Bring a -1 to Hit flag. It's super important against Guard (Tau too).

My sixth recommendation: Don't forget Arcane Genetic Alchemy (usable on Infantry AND Jetbikes). If your opponent has a blizzard of high strength weapons, throw this on a target (and Emperor's Auspice on a DIFFERENT target if it needs protection).

My seventh recommendation: Since I recommend taking Jetbikes, go Solar Watch over Shadowkeepers. Put the Jetbike Captain with them. 21" Move+Advance and shooting on 3's, re-rolling 1's, with a big squad can punch serious holes T1. There's not much that can hide from it.

My eighth recommendation: Choose objectives wisely. You want Bring It Down (because of his vehicles), Grind Them Down/Thin Their Ranks and Map-Specific/Domination/Linebreaker depending on map.
.

Thanks for the tips!

So aside from Morty, what are the other "Lords of" that we need to watch out for? DPs and the like are easily planned for, but do their casters or other HQ's present any specific issues for us that we need to game for?

FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:
So aside from Morty, what are the other "Lords of" that we need to watch out for? DPs and the like are easily planned for, but do their casters or other HQ's present any specific issues for us that we need to game for?

Really, just DP's as far as I know. Malefic Talon DP's were already good at chewing up terminators/jetbikes. They can be even better at it now.

The Blightspawn (flamer Elite character) used to be a huge problem too, but he got hit with the nerf bat. Should be manageable UNLESS you see one with a relic and/or pathogen. THAT will be like fighting the old ones.

Fleshmowers got better at hurting us too. Keep an eye on them but they have no guns so you can play around it.

The flails on PM's got weaker against us but the cleavers got better and now they can have both. Generally, see any unit those things get to swing on as finished unless you've got Emperor's Auspice and maybe Arcane Genetic Alchemy running.

Cloud of Flies is still around so any big unit of PM's or terminators will be protected from shooting unless you're within 12".

Possessed are a sleeper unit. They're about as powerful as the PM's but not getting anywhere near as much attention.

Chaos Spawn got buffed too but I don't think they're at incredible dangerousness.

Plague Burst Crawlers got their flamers nerfed so we're a bit tougher against them than we used to be.