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ShumaGorath wrote:Weapons that have static effects like storm shields and lash whips are simply "always on" since their effects aren't used in the actual attack rolls, and those are the only places where the "one weapon effect" rule comes into being.

QFT

Marrak wrote:It's exactly like the hammer/shield combination. The fact that you can buy them together most times in indicative of this.

You never "strike" with the lash whip in CC, in fact it's never brought up except as a defensive measure, exactly like the stormshield. So if any marine player tells you this one, then kindly ask him to ignore his 3++ save.

The storm shield is not a Special CC weapon though. It is listed under "other equipment" in the SM Codex.


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Clay Williams wrote:In any case it will be a case of codex > brb.

If it were the other way around then all these years using 2 sets of Scytals to get +2 attacks would have been illegal.

Except the 4rth edition codex for nids has a specific allowance that over-rides the BRB.

Pg 31 wrote:Tyranid creatures can use all of its close combat biomorphs in an assault and is not limmited to using one at a time like most models.

We haven't heard if this new codex has this specific allowance.


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Hollismason wrote:I would not put it past them to make a basic mistake like that.

I doubt it would be a mistake as much as an intentional change. They pretty much have changed everything, so I wouldn't put it past them either.

My friend in Germany that has been to a game store and seen the codex has said that on the page that has the tyranid special rules, on the top right, there is a paragraph that translates to something like...

"tyrnids have a lot of abilities that are similar to close combat weapons, but tyrniads only ever fight with their teeth and claws, therefore they can never receive a bonus attack for having two close combat weapons."

So, if two pairs of rending claws or two pairs of scything talons don't give +1 attack, then it seems that they are not in fact weapons at all, and so are protected from this rules loop hole.

When a tyranid with toxin sacs, rending claws, and boneswords attacks it is with its teeth and claws, he just has abilities that are quite similar to the special close combat weapons poisoned weapon, rending weapon, and power weapon. He doesn't have any special weapons though...

Wyomingfox said it all. That the problem if take the rules as written and therefore we cant use both, the lash and the sword.
But i fell confident that GW missed their own rules and it should be used togehter. But RAW does not allow that...

Well, the Tyranid close combat weapons are all described as 'close combat attacks by a Tyranid creature equipped with this weapon...'.

E.g. for Rending Claws: 'Close combat attacks from a model with Rending Claws count as Rending, as described ...', or Bone Sword: 'No armour saves are allowed for wounds caused in close combat by a Tyranid creature equipped with Bone Swords, ...', instead of just saying it is a Power weapon.

While wielded weapons are usually described as something like e.g. the Powerfist: '...attacks with a Power Fist are always delivered at Initiative 1...' or the Relic Blade: 'A relic blade counts as a power weapon whose...'.

So even for RAW junkies you could make an argument that the rules say they're not close combat weapons, but just cummulative modifiers for all the creature's close combat attacks. It never says anywhere that the Tyranid weapons count as any of the special weapons covered in the BRB, unlike the special close combat weapons in other 5E codexes, e.g. the Relic Blade, Frost Axe or Wolf Claw, which all have a 'count as x' with some added rules.

I can see this becoming just like the Deff rolla issue...

Absolutely ; also kind of curious as to whether if they have boneswords and rending claws if they give the advantage of both. Or Poison and Boneswords etc..

Boneswords and Poison with Adrenal Gland is pretty sweet because of the poison rules.

Hollismason wrote:Absolutely ; also kind of curious as to whether if they have boneswords and rending claws if they give the advantage of both. Or Poison and Boneswords etc..

Boneswords and Poison with Adrenal Gland is pretty sweet because of the poison rules.

Boneswords and Rending don't need to give the advantage of both, since Boneswords will always be better vs Infantry, and Rending better vs vehicles. Poison, aka Toxin Sacs, is a Biomorph, not a weapon, so they would stack just fine. I think the only weapon you'll have issues with are the Scything Talons being combined with something else.

Went to GW and asked why does Tervigon need both Trygon and Carnifex to convert. 4 Staff in store never even heard of them. Even the staff have no enthusiasm for their own products?

ÆΞØИ wrote:Went to GW and asked why does Tervigon need both Trygon and Carnifex to convert. 4 Staff in store never even heard of them. Even the staff have no enthusiasm for their own products?

Welcome to working retail.

Has the Codex even been released yet?

Kanluwen wrote:Has the Codex even been released yet?

Why would we let a minor detail like that stop us from debating the rules?

Shep wrote:"tyranids have a lot of abilities that are similar to close combat weapons, but tyrniads only ever fight with their teeth and claws, therefore they can never receive a bonus attack for having two close combat weapons."

All this tells us is really two things:

Tyranids have abilities that mimic close combat weapons but are not close combat weapons

Tyranids never recieve a bonus to attacks for having more than two close combat weapons

This doesn't allow you to use two different special close combat weapons, so it really comes down to how they define the various upgrades in the codex. If per se, they define all the upgrades as biomorphes and in the unit entry, the models are stated to be armed with "teeth and claws" then there will be no problem with benefitting from a lashwhip and bonesword simultaneously. However, if they define these as "special close combat weapons", then you will be restricted to using only one at a time per the BRB (unless they have some other caveate like the 4rth edition dex did).

Aduro wrote:

Kanluwen wrote:Has the Codex even been released yet?

Why would we let a minor detail like that stop us from debating the rules?

I was meaning as to why the redshirt registermonkeys would know what a Tervigon(a creature that needs to be converted from a Trygon/Carnifex) would be.

wyomingfox wrote:

Shep wrote:"tyranids have a lot of abilities that are similar to close combat weapons, but tyrniads only ever fight with their teeth and claws, therefore they can never receive a bonus attack for having two close combat weapons."

All this tells us is really two things:

Tyranids have abilities that mimic close combat weapons but are not close combat weapons

Tyranids never recieve a bonus to attacks for having more than two close combat weapons

This doesn't allow you to use two different special close combat weapons, so it really comes down to how they define the various upgrades in the codex. If per se, they define all the upgrades as biomorphes and in the unit entry, the models are stated to be armed with "teeth and claws" then there will be no problem with benefiting from a lashwhip and bonesword simultaneously. However, if they define these as "special close combat weapons", then you will be restricted to using only one at a time per the BRB (unless they have some other caveate like the 4rth edition dex did).

This is some great rules lawyering, but in the end, just like every nid codex before this, and after, all the bonuses will count. Period. If they do go above and beyond and change this, then they will no longer give 2 sets of close combat weapons. Space marines will not use a storm shield with a thunder hammer. Its takes up a CC weapon slot, so it is a CC weapon.

Abbadon's sword specifically states how attacks must be allocated.

tell me Fox, do screamer killers have to choose between which of the 4 scythes they use? They are armed with 2 pair. Its does state that one pair allows you to reroll 1's, 2 pair allow you to reroll all misses.

This rule breaks the BBB, and it does not explicitly state that it does, it just states what these weapons do.

Since it does not state that it is in exception to the BBB, then what do Carnifex do? Pic a single claw and roll? What about ones with claws and scythes? Just pic one scythe?

It's rules lawyer garbage like this that create bad rules systems, the spirit of the rule is there. Dbaggery like this is what makes companies have to chase down rules with other rules.

It is rather stupid to debate these issues when the codex has not even been release yet.

the problems will be here.

Hollismason wrote:It is rather stupid to debate these issues when the codex has not even been release yet.

yes but this is dakka we are aloud to argue about things we can't change

out of wondering in WD it said we got 30 codex entreies but i can't count that may watch:

hive tryant
guard
alhpa warrior
tevigon
zeons
hive guard
squigface
proyove
ymarl stealers
parasit of some thing
lictor
death leaper
gaunt
hormogaunt
stealer
warriors
winged warriors
garagolyes
spore mines
raveners
harpies
bivore
fex
trygon
mawloc
on and ripers
so thats 26 beast so what have i missed ??

oldone wrote:
out of wondering in WD it said we got 30 codex entreies but i can't count that may watch:

...

so thats 26 beast so what have i missed ??

Swarmlord, Doom of Malan'tai (Zoanthrope special character), Mycetic Spore (drop pod), Winged Rippers, Old One Eye, Trygon Alpha (although it is the same codex entry as the Trygon) and the Tyrannofex

Squigface? Sounds like something from the Orks Codex.

warpcrafter wrote:Squigface? Sounds like something from the Orks Codex.

I assume he means the Venomthrope.

yes i do mean that i just can't spell
right thanks for poniting them out to me what is the last one i haven't read any ruomours about him(her.....it)
oh and this arguement on the lash wipe and bonesswords surely you by them toghter on a tryant and there for are one combat weapon togher???? or am i wrong/ just had a thought in WD did the raveners get both rending and rerolls for the battle report cos this will answer the qusetion
OT if i give my warriors FNP and my oppents shoot them with a heavy bolter and i get a cover save form mass gaunts then do i get FNP????

You can use the search function in YMDC to find out about how FNP works. There are a ton of threads about it (but the answer is yes).

Slave wrote:Space marines will not use a storm shield with a thunder hammer. Its takes up a CC weapon slot, so it is a CC weapon.

No thats wrong.
Stormshields do not count as CC Weapons, they are additional equipment. Thats a minor difference.
But in the Nid dex, lash, claws, sowrds etc. are all clearly stated as CC Weapons. And you cant use both of them.

I will laugh when the codex comes out, and it turns out that really, the passage saying we could fight with multiple weapons translated poorly.

Hive2003 wrote:

Slave wrote:Space marines will not use a storm shield with a thunder hammer. Its takes up a CC weapon slot, so it is a CC weapon.

No thats wrong.
Stormshields do not count as CC Weapons, they are additional equipment. Thats a minor difference.
But in the Nid dex, lash, claws, sowrds etc. are all clearly stated as CC Weapons. And you cant use both of them.

But this is what I don't get. If they are clearly stated as CC weapons, and if you have 2 of them you should get the +1A then. To say they can't get the +1A is a Nerf to the 'Nids for no reason. (Maybe to buff the SM again without a new codex)

Crazy_Carnifex wrote:I will laugh when the codex comes out, and it turns out that really, the passage saying we could fight with multiple weapons translated poorly.

Yeah me too.
Im really hoping its like that, or we will get asap a FaQ...

"FAQ" and "ASAP" cannot exist in the same sentence when the word "GW" is within two pages.

How about some new rumors/facts/models(?) about the new codex?

Greets
Schepp himself

Well, as has been stated earlier, all the Tyranid close combat weapons are already worded differently from all the wielded weapons in the BRB and codex, and more like passive buffs.
Add that to the rule that say Tyranid close combat weapons don't fall under the regular close combat weapon rules, and IMHO you have a solid RAW case that you can use all the weapon biomorph effects simultaniously.

But I'm sure this discussion will be held ad infinitum in the YMTC section of the board, so we should probably give it a rest here, it's derailing the thread.

Davor wrote:

Hive2003 wrote:

Slave wrote:Space marines will not use a storm shield with a thunder hammer. Its takes up a CC weapon slot, so it is a CC weapon.

No thats wrong.
Stormshields do not count as CC Weapons, they are additional equipment. Thats a minor difference.
But in the Nid dex, lash, claws, sowrds etc. are all clearly stated as CC Weapons. And you cant use both of them.

But this is what I don't get. If they are clearly stated as CC weapons, and if you have 2 of them you should get the +1A then. To say they can't get the +1A is a Nerf to the 'Nids for no reason. (Maybe to buff the SM again without a new codex)

Tyranids never benefited from multiple close combat weapons. It's why they have so many attacks in their profile. But nice try.