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About even, but the FnP would still give an edge along with the WS5. I dunno though, don't you typically use MSU's of Grey Hunters anyway?

Changing the subject, used BA TH/SS termies with a priest and my Epistolary for a fun little deathstar (Telepathy powers on my Epistolary) and it's fun to have a really big, survivable unit sometimes, and the added FnP was amusing that game as even when some 2+'s let some wounds slip through, my FnP saved the day

So i've just ran by BA for the first time in ages and got completley slaughtered, I've not really kept up to date with whats what for the Angels these days, so what sort of lists are you guys running at 2k now>?

I've had success with high model-count jumping lists, the option of combat-squadding my large units of jumpers or keeping them together is nice in case of objective games. Even though DoA is significantly hampered now I appreciate that they can still take advantage of their special rules.

Stormravens are quite excellent units at the moment, we'll see how long that stands but they're a very versatile flyer that we get access to so yay

People are loving DC, I personally find them rather expensive and their inability to score (giggity, or lack of giggity) is something that turns me off from them but they are quite efficient as nasty infantry with the new changes to Rage.

With the new revision to Night Fighting, it's good to maybe consider those little searchlights as they're huge bonuses if you use lots of vehicles and want a good edge early on.

Also, drop pods, I'm hearing great things about drop pods, if you want to go shooty, combined with the new disembarking ranges, you can unleash the hurt pretty consistently more often than not if you have a good target.

FNP is different, but I don't believe it's a bad different. Don't underestimate it, getting a 5+ against plasma is nothing to scoff at

Titan Atlas wrote:
About even, but the FnP would still give an edge along with the WS5. I dunno though, don't you typically use MSU's of Grey Hunters anyway?

Nah I use multiple large units, MSU would be like 5-6 models in a unit. Large units seem to be the way to go for most MEQ units in 6th because stuff seems to die very quickly.

AV13 baal, preds, furioso and vindi are all pretty awesome this edition.
BA can also do all pod lists pretty well and pod lists are fairly strong this edition.

 Andilus Greatsword wrote:

Titan Atlas wrote:
About even, but the FnP would still give an edge along with the WS5. I dunno though, don't you typically use MSU's of Grey Hunters anyway?

Nah I use multiple large units, MSU would be like 5-6 models in a unit. Large units seem to be the way to go for most MEQ units in 6th because stuff seems to die very quickly.

I could have sworn you were using small units. You see, when I say MSU, I know what MSU means but I suppose I was thinking more in the frame of 5th ed when you had razorbacks everywhere lol
I suppose now you're more about drop pods? Or did you decide against that after all?


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And yeah, Jackster, the BA vehicles are pretty great this edition. Staying fast and the transports having good disembarking ranges, it's great, although the HP thing is a bit of a pain, but just a call to be more careful if anything.

Razors and Rhinos do die faster, but Preds and co actually benefit from the new damage table. I consider that even really.

yup. And with the cover adjustments and night fighting, the vehicles can be adapt and get a leg up on the opponent, so long as they're careful.

I dont know if anyone has mentioned this yet (don't fancy reading 18 pages worth of commments to find out), but I've had good results running a furioso dread in a drop pod with frag cannon and heavy flamer. Basically its job is to come in turn 1 and drop 2 str6 rending flame templates plus a heavy flamer on a unit and generally just try to disrupt my opponent's game plan. I use it a bit like you might a blood talon dreadnought but with a build that doesnt require it to get into combat to be effective.

I've only used one at a time because I tend to play at 1500 points and have a feeling more than 1 would be a bit much in my semi-competetive environment, but it is always a consistantly good performer

asters wrote:
I dont know if anyone has mentioned this yet (don't fancy reading 18 pages worth of commments to find out), but I've had good results running a furioso dread in a drop pod with frag cannon and heavy flamer. Basically its job is to come in turn 1 and drop 2 str6 rending flame templates plus a heavy flamer on a unit and generally just try to disrupt my opponent's game plan. I use it a bit like you might a blood talon dreadnought but with a build that doesnt require it to get into combat to be effective.

I've only used one at a time because I tend to play at 1500 points and have a feeling more than 1 would be a bit much in my semi-competetive environment, but it is always a consistantly good performer

I actually like that idea, since they dont give BA Lucius Pods for those Furiosos to assault immediately.
Though I think I'd go with Frag Cannon, Melta Gun and Magna Grapple. The Dread can pop a tank if it needs to.

Eldercaveman wrote:
So i've just ran by BA for the first time in ages and got completley slaughtered, I've not really kept up to date with whats what for the Angels these days, so what sort of lists are you guys running at 2k now>?

Get used to this against good lists and good players.

The BA have lost of what made them feared in 5th edition. No more init 5, FNP is less effective against torrent, no more assaulting out of razorbacks. (Or Rhinos, but seriously, which BA used rhinos in 5th?) Also, Mephiston is no longer an autotake, Dante is now init 1, etc. Basically, we can no longer win some of the HTH combats we did in 5th, and when we do win, we take more damage. And there's random assault. And there's overwatch.

I think the best answer is that there is no easy answer. BA lists field fewer bodies than other marines and we have trouble covering our bases in 6th. Yeah, the Stormraven is good, but its also almost a must have at 1750 and higher to combat other fliers. This leaves fewer points for whatever else you are trying to do. Yes, drop pod fragnoughts are good. Yes, DC got better, but still lack *efficient* delivery systems and don't score. But I don't think these things individually add up to a good list. Our pod lists are inferior to space wolves, since we are a list that really needs to assault to maximize effectiveness. Space Wolves don't care if they assault or not.

Some people are swearing by mass jumpers, but I've ran into several styles of lists that just eat our ASMs now in HTH. So the mass jumpers will roll some lists, and get eaten by others, literally. Other try combined arms, which the jumper people scoff at. This brings more versatility, but greatly reduced HTH capability. I prefer this style because I don't think relying on BA HTH capabilities is a good idea anymore when you look at all possible opponents. It might do well at any given local store, but its only a matter of time until you run into space wolves or Tyranids. Or HTH CSM. (Who can get perma init 5!)

Martel, your negativity is misleading. I happen to play a fellow who regularly uses both Space Wolves and Tyranids, quite well, and more often than not, I do just fine. I think that part of your advice,

Get used to this against good lists and good players.

should be considered in terms of adapting with BA now too, in that we should also be combining our skills with our list-writing. They're not the big bad of 6th, true, but if you play them right, more often than not you give the enemy players a run for their money. True, you can easily do so while adding some allies, but running pure BA has also worked out well for me. I think the main problem that you seem to be stating is that BA lost a lot of what other players accuse of being cheese, and different BA players react differently to that.

Being a low tier list, which the BA are in 6th edition, does not mean you can't win or can't give other lists runs for their money. Being a bad list in 40K is like being a bad baseball team. You still win 40% of the games, you just don't have a good record over the long haul averaged across all players and all opponents.

Properly constructed an employed Space Wolf list or Tyranid list will more often than not munch a BA jumper list. It's just mathematics. I'm glad you are able to do well against this fellow, but it is but one data point. I have several BA players at my local store struggling to understand why they keep losing the matchups they used to win.

The BA, even at their 5th edition apex, weren't even the best list. I think that the point value of sanguinary priests was well balanced for the advantages they conferred on their squads in 5th. Not anymore.

BA can benefit from allies, but not like the Space Wolves or even vanilla marines. We've got a space wolf/IG list at our store that has lost 1 game out of 23. Now that's a good list and good player. The BA can not even touch that level of consistency in 6th edition.


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BA can still write decent lists, but when you factor in what we pay for units and how they actually perform in real games, they are not as good as GK or Necron or IG lists, or even Orks :\

I feel I should step in on the discussion. I attended the 2nd most competitive tournament on the uk a couple of weeks ago or so. It was a 1850pts 5 games. It was my 1st tournament ever so I wasn't expecting to do that well specially since I haven't even played against most of the armies out there. Plus since I decided to go one just short of two months before the tournament and had no army whatsoever I decided to take what I already had or could build and avoid any possible delays due to online retailers not sending items on time.
After getting my ass heavily kicked out from necrons on first turn (loss 17-3), being wiped out by SW (20-0) due to mainly misfortune and losing the last game of the game on the last turn for being overconfident (9-7). I started the second day on the second last table just in fourth from the bottom and looking at getting the lollypop. Luckily all the bad luck I had on first day resulted on extreme luck on the second with almost tabling necrons on game 4, knocking down his lord and only unit on the table for two turns only to see him coming back on his feet twice, and getting pretty much all my armours saves on the last game, against another blood angels player with a dual raven list, making him to concede the game to me by turn 3.

But the overall impression I got looking at the tables is that any SM army is kind of equivalent at the moment and more mid tier than really top tier. The exception being maybe SW if played from a top player. So yes BA can still be competitive but not really top dog anymore. As for lists I actually wanted to go to the tournament to see what kind of BA lists would show up, but only 4 people took angels and the list vary widely. There real is no standard at the moment for most armies with the exception of Necrons and Daemons.

BA lists are going to vary widely, due to the lack of efficacy now found throughout the codex. Most units and unit compositions are now flawed in non-trivial ways. This makes for great variety of BA lists, I admit, but it is poor for competition, or even a local tournament for a lowly 50 dollar in store credit. The GK or Necrons will walk away with it every time over the BA because of the number of games played.

Space Wolves have the advantage of being non-astartes marines. Little things like having a CC weapon on your marines makes a big difference when building all comers lists. The SW can much more reliably handle enemy hordes with just their troops. Plus they have the double special and dump the heavy, which I feel is superior for marines in a role where they may be moving a lot.

Even though they are not the best list, I find CSM to be pretty offensive to me. They can field troops that are literally better BA than the actual BA. They get access to init 5, as well as FNP, as well as other awesome CC options. BA don't even get relic blades. Consequently, I do not have much pity for any complaints about CSM. If they want to complain, I present them Codex: Blood Angels. The BA truly suffer from the death of 100 little nerfs and short changings that aren't obvious until you play many games and look closely at where you are losing. (Other than dice; bad dice can invalidate results)

Titan Atlas wrote:

 Andilus Greatsword wrote:

Titan Atlas wrote:
About even, but the FnP would still give an edge along with the WS5. I dunno though, don't you typically use MSU's of Grey Hunters anyway?

Nah I use multiple large units, MSU would be like 5-6 models in a unit. Large units seem to be the way to go for most MEQ units in 6th because stuff seems to die very quickly.

I could have sworn you were using small units. You see, when I say MSU, I know what MSU means but I suppose I was thinking more in the frame of 5th ed when you had razorbacks everywhere lol
I suppose now you're more about drop pods? Or did you decide against that after all?

In 5th I'd take 1 GH unit in a Razorback to camp objectives, although now I can just get Guard to do that for me if I want, and put my Long Fangs in Razorbacks just in case I rolled Dawn of War. Now it seems like Pods are the best delivery method, although I don't particularly feel like shelling out for 6 or 7 of them. :/

 Andilus Greatsword wrote:

Titan Atlas wrote:

 Andilus Greatsword wrote:

Titan Atlas wrote:
About even, but the FnP would still give an edge along with the WS5. I dunno though, don't you typically use MSU's of Grey Hunters anyway?

Nah I use multiple large units, MSU would be like 5-6 models in a unit. Large units seem to be the way to go for most MEQ units in 6th because stuff seems to die very quickly.

I could have sworn you were using small units. You see, when I say MSU, I know what MSU means but I suppose I was thinking more in the frame of 5th ed when you had razorbacks everywhere lol
I suppose now you're more about drop pods? Or did you decide against that after all?

In 5th I'd take 1 GH unit in a Razorback to camp objectives, although now I can just get Guard to do that for me if I want, and put my Long Fangs in Razorbacks just in case I rolled Dawn of War. Now it seems like Pods are the best delivery method, although I don't particularly feel like shelling out for 6 or 7 of them. :/

lol I get what you mean, but those cardboard homemade ones like the one you made are fun