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 Daedalus81 wrote:

Cronch wrote:
Remember the indomitus set that they "couldn't keep in production"? Most of it is now available at massive markup as two "direct only" sets. So they ARE producing it, just charging you extra for it.

How much extra exactly? The one that costs $5 more than a box of warriors and comes with a Warden, Captain, and Assault Intercessors? The ones designed for bringing new people into the hobby?

To that point there are plenty of opportunities to get discounted sets and if you miss this there will certainly by a SC that will come along soon. Likely this Christmas.

Oh, please.

It's fine that they do this but it is preying on FOMO and encouraging people to buy before they think about it too much. Which is a legitimate, legal business tactic.

I think it's a bit scummy is all, it's really not a big deal.

 Wha-Mu-077 wrote:
The Royal Court and the Honoured of the Chapter. Both of which have absolutely insane prices.
.

Oh you mean the weird filler bundles of stuff that doesn't have a separated box yet? I don't know why someone would buy that. Especially when that stuff is $50 or less on eBay.

But I get your point. If someone needed some specific models and had no idea stuff was on eBay they'd be hard pressed to buy that. The reason it is that price is because they're charging likely what the individual retail would be for a niche run of the moulds.

 Daedalus81 wrote:

 Wha-Mu-077 wrote:
The Royal Court and the Honoured of the Chapter. Both of which have absolutely insane prices.
.

Oh you mean the weird filler bundles of stuff that doesn't have a separated box yet? I don't know why someone would buy that. Especially when that stuff is $50 or less on eBay.

But I get your point. If someone needed some specific models and had no idea stuff was on eBay they'd be hard pressed to buy that. The reason it is that price is because they're charging likely what the individual retail would be for a niche run of the moulds.

You keep moving to goalposts to not admit that GW has changed how they make "starter sets" since 9th. And changed it for the worst, for us customers, because in 8th we had both Dark Imperium and 3 levels of "starters" for cheaper.

 Da Boss wrote:
It's fine that they do this but it is preying on FOMO and encouraging people to buy before they think about it too much. Which is a legitimate, legal business tactic.

I think it's a bit scummy is all, it's really not a big deal.

Legal for sure, and yes their company their rules.
Indomitus, cursed city and lets see if this one... All starters that are labeled something else by GW and sold in bits at a fat margin later on. I think people need to get used to that now... I would rather see people complain massively like they did in indomitus.

Just going to say that this is clearly a new path GW came up with and indomitus was first the jab, but its clear this is going to be the way forward.
I think the prices in the last couple years just got unreasonable and with the examples displayed above is actually a slap in the face.
The period of grace after Kirby is gone with these last events eroding all the good faith relationship built over the years.

Miniatures will get bigger, more heroes more monsters at HUGE prices per mini, not because of rules but because they rather sell one infantry sized mini, call it a hero and charge £25 for it. Or make huge ridiculous kits call it god of something and charge £100.
Its all about creating the false sense of importance of a mini or Box and charge ridiculous prices... the question is are you happy with that? If so then good for you. ( not at you Da boss its generally speaking )

No worries. I agree. It's all about where the value lies for each of us.

 Galas wrote:
You keep moving to goalposts to not admit that GW has changed how they make "starter sets" since 9th. And changed it for the worst, for us customers, because in 8th we had both Dark Imperium and 3 levels of "starters" for cheaper.

They have three levels of starters now and they appear to be nearly as cheap as Indomitus. The "off cuts" from the mold are the expensive parts.

 Daedalus81 wrote:

 Galas wrote:
You keep moving to goalposts to not admit that GW has changed how they make "starter sets" since 9th. And changed it for the worst, for us customers, because in 8th we had both Dark Imperium and 3 levels of "starters" for cheaper.

They have three levels of starters now and they appear to be nearly as cheap as Indomitus. The "off cuts" from the mold are the expensive parts.

Imo, there was a huge, huge difference in how much the three split off starter sets cost from Dark Imperium and the ones from Indomitus. Though, it's hard to directly compare them. Dark Imperium had unique sculpts that were then reused in the three sets. Indomitus was just a launch box, and then the majority of those models were released separately. The Plague marines from DI were only in DI and the 3 sets; the separate kit was more versatile but still not the same models. The necrons you get from the Indomitus three starter sets are directly sold separately. The outriders, the marines, etc are all standalone kits that use the same models. I can't recall if there are any exclusives to the Indomitus starter set (by that, I mean models that are only available in that set OR the crazy overpriced "bundles" they released later)

Is this really on topic anymore?

 Daedalus81 wrote:

 Galas wrote:
You keep moving to goalposts to not admit that GW has changed how they make "starter sets" since 9th. And changed it for the worst, for us customers, because in 8th we had both Dark Imperium and 3 levels of "starters" for cheaper.

They have three levels of starters now and they appear to be nearly as cheap as Indomitus. The "off cuts" from the mold are the expensive parts.

They aren't 'off cuts.' They're full sprues. A single sprue each, in fact:

https://www.games-workshop.com/resources/catalog/product/920x950/99120101353_HonouredoftheChapterSprue.jpg

https://www.games-workshop.com/resources/catalog/product/920x950/99120110072_NECRoyalCourtStock.jpg

Note the use of the words 'sprue' and 'stock' as part of GW's name for images. These are punched out of their machines as-is, like any other kit.

As for your starter comparison... you'd need Elite (99) Recruit (50) and Rulebook (65) and... we're already $15 past the price of indomitus. Then the above two sprues are another $250.
So, no, not anywhere near as cheap, unless you're using bizarro-math we're getting less for more money is somehow a boon for the customer.

Strangely they produce all these things, and they could easily put them in a shipping box and start selling again 'Indomitus' at any time. The only reason they don't is artificial scarcity


And clearly the plan is to do the same again for AoS.

Here we go again...

Thing is, the Dominion box isn't the starter. It's a special box for launching 3rd edition. Just like you have the special army bundles in december every year.

And it's always limited because well...it's a bundle. It's a sale. If it was this price all the time, that means GW sells more for less all the time. And that's what not how they make profit.

All sales are on the same principle, from every company in the world.

And yes, shocking, the separate parts from the Indomitus bundle box are more expensive once available. That's litterally all their single boxes in comparison to the corresponding army bundle boxes in december. Which is why it's a sale.

Scummy ? Well, yes...but all trade is scummy, mind you. It's all based on how much value the buyer gives to what the seller wants to sell - and vice versa. It's never objective.

We understand what GW made Indomitus/Domionion to be. We don't need anyone to explain to us what GW is doing.

We also remember, because we have a memory span longer than 2 years, how this is a change in how they made things for the past... nearly 15 years. And in modern (And not that modern) GW way... its a change for the worse.

Anyway lets move on...

Has it already been mentioned when we can expect to download the core rules?

 Galas wrote:
We understand what GW made Indomitus/Domionion to be. We don't need anyone to explain to us what GW is doing.

We also remember, because we have a memory span longer than 2 years, how this is a change in how they made things for the past... nearly 15 years. And in modern (And not that modern) GW way... its a change for the worse.

Basically, yeah. I don't see the point (or benefits) of being fatalistic and resigned to price-gouging as an inevitability, while simultaneously normalizing and supporting it.

And no, selling something for a decent profit then flipping towards selling pieces for the same profit plus more than double the initial price is _not_ 'normal business behavior.' That isn't what a 'sale' is.

SamusDrake wrote:
Anyway lets move on...

Has it already been mentioned when we can expect to download the core rules?

Probably not until the pre-orders go live.

 Ghaz wrote:

Probably not until the pre-orders go live.

Not too far then. Cheers.

Daedalus81 is also (rather conveniently) ignoring Voss' point that they're still producing everything that was in the Indomitus box, so there's no reason why they couldn't make more of it. Kind of shoots his entire "thousands of boxes not selling" theory to pieces.

 H.B.M.C. wrote:
Daedalus81 is also (rather conveniently) ignoring Voss' point that they're still producing everything that was in the Indomitus box, so there's no reason why they couldn't make more of it. Kind of shoots his entire "thousands of boxes not selling" theory to pieces.

Yeah I think we all know that it is limited because the margins aren't as good and to hype it out as a 'launch exclusive' type product. While sucky, that is far from exclusive to GW and FAR from the most obnoxious example. At least this product actually IS a good deal, a really good one at that. And at the end of the day I would rather us be getting these limited launch boxes than being limited to the Command Edition-equivalent. I think 40k 8th and AoS 2nd are going to mark the best non-limited starters for a while as they got to be almost as big without the limited part.

Anyone else remember during AoS 1st edition when the limited White Dwarf model was literally just exclusive packaging on a generic slayer model that had been out for years?

Sarouan wrote:
Thing is, the Dominion box isn't the starter. It's a special box for launching 3rd edition.

It takes special kind of blindness and goalpost shifting to not notice sPeCiAl BoX is totally identical to starters of 40K, AoS, and Fantasy from the last 15 if not 20 years and the only difference is the fact GW jacked price up and limited it to kill discount (that, funnily enough, was bringing new players into the game, as these starters are less useful to existing crowd) then called three small thrash boxes sTaRtErS. I wonder if they will call a single character mini with doubled price a sTaRtEr next edition and the same people will lap that up as well

But then again, it's not new, there were people praising (or at worst being neutral) price hikes and less and less VS boxes before, replacement of SC with trash patrol boxes, end of army boxes, so no wonder GW takes advantage of people begging to be fleeced...

I don't think anyone expects these FOMO boxes to last indefinitely, and most critics of the "Indomitus" business strategy would be satisfied if they simply didn't go out of stock within 15 minutes.

When the annual survey comes around at the end of the year, my main request will be some kind of VIP list, perhaps tied to a Warhammer+ subscription, that provides an opportunity for leisurely ordering of these time-limited deals. E.g. "Dear subscriber, we have a new TS vs. GK box going on sale next month – would you like to reserve one ahead of general availability? Please let us know within 48 hours."

I think a solution as simple as that would please 95% of the folks who are currently frustrated while letting GW keep its favorite new marketing technique – and also providing a reason to sign up beyond the cartoons!

It is frustrating to buy into the hype for something, take in all the content for weeks leading up to the launch, and then get shut out of the party because you couldn't reorient your Saturday afternoon around buying toy soldiers.

Togusa wrote:

 CMLR wrote:
Something I haven't mention is that I am a bit worried that this new orcs are too kunnin' for their own good.

They are basically AoS equivalent to Deathskulls, so yeah, one think is to have smar'er boyz and other is to start to have an entire faction of them to start to shine for their brains far more than their brawnz.

I do welcome the new heavy weapons, and I'd like to see the other Orruks with crude catapults and battering rams, but leave the more precise weapons and stratagems, well, to order.

Orcs can be more than just mindless automatons that exist solely to be slaughtered by everyone else because "OrKs iZ BaD." I really like the move to Orks being able to do things like strategize and plan.

Again, I can get behind they going more strategical.

I can't get behind a whole faction of them going full on Tzeentch and being succesful.

 CMLR wrote:

Togusa wrote:

 CMLR wrote:
Something I haven't mention is that I am a bit worried that this new orcs are too kunnin' for their own good.

They are basically AoS equivalent to Deathskulls, so yeah, one think is to have smar'er boyz and other is to start to have an entire faction of them to start to shine for their brains far more than their brawnz.

I do welcome the new heavy weapons, and I'd like to see the other Orruks with crude catapults and battering rams, but leave the more precise weapons and stratagems, well, to order.

Orcs can be more than just mindless automatons that exist solely to be slaughtered by everyone else because "OrKs iZ BaD." I really like the move to Orks being able to do things like strategize and plan.

Again, I can get behind they going more strategical.

I can't get behind a whole faction of them going full on Tzeentch and being succesful.

Is that... actually an issue?

What's presented is this:
"Kruleboyz are still brutal, but their cunning makes them more amenable to picking off foes at range and stabbing someone in the back instead of charging in headlong."

That seems on brand for a variety of orcs and goblins (and various subraces of both in the fantasy genre). They're not setting ploys 'underneath the underneath' or playing 5 dimensional chess in their heads. Or pulling the full Xanatos and every failure is actually a victory for the real scheme. They just favor ambushes, poisons, flanking maneuvers and problematic terrain. That's pretty classic gobbo behavior.

 Irbis wrote:

Sarouan wrote:
Thing is, the Dominion box isn't the starter. It's a special box for launching 3rd edition.

It takes special kind of blindness and goalpost shifting to not notice sPeCiAl BoX is totally identical to starters of 40K, AoS, and Fantasy from the last 15 if not 20 years and the only difference is the fact GW jacked price up and limited it to kill discount (that, funnily enough, was bringing new players into the game, as these starters are less useful to existing crowd) then called three small thrash boxes sTaRtErS. I wonder if they will call a single character mini with doubled price a sTaRtEr next edition and the same people will lap that up as well

But then again, it's not new, there were people praising (or at worst being neutral) price hikes and less and less VS boxes before, replacement of SC with trash patrol boxes, end of army boxes, so no wonder GW takes advantage of people begging to be fleeced...

Hmm. I don't seem to remember any of my starter boxes coming with a limited edition rulebook (of course I may be getting forgetful in my old age ), so apparently there is at least one difference between a launch box and a starter box...

 Ghaz wrote:

 Irbis wrote:

Sarouan wrote:
Thing is, the Dominion box isn't the starter. It's a special box for launching 3rd edition.

It takes special kind of blindness and goalpost shifting to not notice sPeCiAl BoX is totally identical to starters of 40K, AoS, and Fantasy from the last 15 if not 20 years and the only difference is the fact GW jacked price up and limited it to kill discount (that, funnily enough, was bringing new players into the game, as these starters are less useful to existing crowd) then called three small thrash boxes sTaRtErS. I wonder if they will call a single character mini with doubled price a sTaRtEr next edition and the same people will lap that up as well

But then again, it's not new, there were people praising (or at worst being neutral) price hikes and less and less VS boxes before, replacement of SC with trash patrol boxes, end of army boxes, so no wonder GW takes advantage of people begging to be fleeced...

Hmm. I don't seem to remember any of my starter boxes coming with a limited edition rulebook (of course I may be getting forgetful in my old age ), so apparently there is at least one difference between a launch box and a starter box...

They changed the cover art on a print run of a rule book. Nothing else inside is changed. That's a cop out if I've ever seen one to call it limited

 Galas wrote:

 Daedalus81 wrote:

 Wha-Mu-077 wrote:
The Royal Court and the Honoured of the Chapter. Both of which have absolutely insane prices.
.

Oh you mean the weird filler bundles of stuff that doesn't have a separated box yet? I don't know why someone would buy that. Especially when that stuff is $50 or less on eBay.

But I get your point. If someone needed some specific models and had no idea stuff was on eBay they'd be hard pressed to buy that. The reason it is that price is because they're charging likely what the individual retail would be for a niche run of the moulds.

You keep moving to goalposts to not admit that GW has changed how they make "starter sets" since 9th. And changed it for the worst, for us customers, because in 8th we had both Dark Imperium and 3 levels of "starters" for cheaper.

Dark imperium had less savings though. And less stuff.

Sure they could keep indomitus. But then we would be back to dark imperium level of saving so rather than 160€ you pay more. If you take item with X price and Y discount and lower the Y of course X is going up.

Elite edition is your dark imperium.

What you are actually saying "I wish they never had produced indominatus and just gone for recruit/elite/command straight away". Ok guess it's fair nobody gets big discount box...but still not seeing why that would be so much better.

 Ghaz wrote:

 Irbis wrote:

Sarouan wrote:
Thing is, the Dominion box isn't the starter. It's a special box for launching 3rd edition.

It takes special kind of blindness and goalpost shifting to not notice sPeCiAl BoX is totally identical to starters of 40K, AoS, and Fantasy from the last 15 if not 20 years and the only difference is the fact GW jacked price up and limited it to kill discount (that, funnily enough, was bringing new players into the game, as these starters are less useful to existing crowd) then called three small thrash boxes sTaRtErS. I wonder if they will call a single character mini with doubled price a sTaRtEr next edition and the same people will lap that up as well

But then again, it's not new, there were people praising (or at worst being neutral) price hikes and less and less VS boxes before, replacement of SC with trash patrol boxes, end of army boxes, so no wonder GW takes advantage of people begging to be fleeced...

Hmm. I don't seem to remember any of my starter boxes coming with a limited edition rulebook (of course I may be getting forgetful in my old age ), so apparently there is at least one difference between a launch box and a starter box...

Ironically, Irbis is demonstrating a lack of hindsight since the non-limited Command starter bears the most resemblance to historical starters with the amount of miniatures, softback rules-only book, and terrain. Further, Sarouan isn't even denying that Dominion is a starter; he only said it wasn't the starter, that it is a special launch box. Which is entirely correct; it is not the (or rather "the main") starter entirely by virtue of GW making it limited. They decide what the main starter is, we may think it is a reduced value compared to those in the past but it does not change that category being defined by GW and not us. That may seem a bit pedantic until one considers that it isn't the most analogous to starters of the past anyways; the Command edition equivalent will be*.

*Obviously we haven't seen it yet but I feel it is quite a safe bet to say so. If it turns out I am wrong I will come back and admit it.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

tneva82 wrote:
What you are actually saying "I wish they never had produced indominatus and just gone for recruit/elite/command straight away". Ok guess it's fair nobody gets big discount box...but still not seeing why that would be so much better.

This. That so many people feel it would be better if instead of Indomitus being limited it simply not exist at all baffles me.

 Ghaz wrote:

Hmm. I don't seem to remember any of my starter boxes coming with a limited edition rulebook (of course I may be getting forgetful in my old age ), so apparently there is at least one difference between a launch box and a starter box...

you could take the A5 Rulebook that was only availabe with the starter as "limited edition" in a wider sense as it was not available outside the box

 Ghaz wrote:
Hmm. I don't seem to remember any of my starter boxes coming with a limited edition rulebook (of course I may be getting forgetful in my old age ), so apparently there is at least one difference between a launch box and a starter box...

A distinction without a difference. It was an alternate cover.

 H.B.M.C. wrote:

 Ghaz wrote:
Hmm. I don't seem to remember any of my starter boxes coming with a limited edition rulebook (of course I may be getting forgetful in my old age ), so apparently there is at least one difference between a launch box and a starter box...

A distinction without a difference. It was an alternate cover.

Alternate covers are litterally what are all their special edition / collector codexes they keep selling for a limited stock everytime they release a new codex.

So yes, it's a collector item.


GW made collector items / limited editions before, they were just not as many as nowadays. And the special bundles limited in stock always existed : they were just mostly released for anniversaries / end of the year like december to get rid of old stock.

Here, they make a special box for the launch of new edition...sure new thing, but that's the same principle.

Scummy ? Like I said, yes it is. Trade is based on scummy behaviour, mind you. Either you accept it or you moan about it pointlessly in the void. That's reality.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 NinthMusketeer wrote:

Automatically Appended Next Post:

tneva82 wrote:
What you are actually saying "I wish they never had produced indominatus and just gone for recruit/elite/command straight away". Ok guess it's fair nobody gets big discount box...but still not seeing why that would be so much better.

This. That so many people feel it would be better if instead of Indomitus being limited it simply not exist at all baffles me.

It's very ironic, in the end. When you think about it, when GW release army bundles in december, there's the same lil dance on this forum but since it comes every year, it has less impact.

This time, we had Indomitus happening before (well...if people with very short memories forget all the previous "special boxes" GW released in the years before as well, to be honest). So the most cynical of us like me were getting ready about the same thing for AoS. Now we know. Better to act appropriately.

As for myself...I was hyped for the new Stormcast Eternals but looking at the box, it doesn't appeal me that much. So I'll probably pass this opportunity. Is it a deal ? Well yes surely, but I would rather see the rest of the Stormcast Eternal range when they release the new battletome before buying the new miniatures and get stuck with the old ones anyway for way too long a time. Besides, it's really the vindictors that I like and I'm pretty sure the starters coming later will give me some for a price at the lower levels, if it's based like for 40k v9 (and something tells me it will be).

Like someone said before, people complaining here (and know GW haters, obviously) are mostly moaning for the principles, not really because they really want or intend to buy the box. And of course, moaning about it when it's not even on pre-order (thus no one still has the opportunity to have one) is very funny. How can you complain about availability when it's not even up in the webstore ? You don't even know if you'll manage to grab one or not, in the end. You just complain about the possibility you won't.

At least wait for the pre-order date and moan once it's definitively not available online. Then you will have the rights to complain.

 NinthMusketeer wrote:



Automatically Appended Next Post:

tneva82 wrote:
What you are actually saying "I wish they never had produced indominatus and just gone for recruit/elite/command straight away". Ok guess it's fair nobody gets big discount box...but still not seeing why that would be so much better.

This. That so many people feel it would be better if instead of Indomitus being limited it simply not exist at all baffles me.

That’s... not what people are saying? That’s what tneva is saying people are saying, but it isn’t. People would rather it not be limited, than it not exist.