Switch Theme:

Codex Adeptus Custodes: By His will alone  [RSS] Share on facebook Share on Twitter Submit to Reddit
»
Author Message
Advert


Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you:
  • No adverts like this in the forums anymore.
  • Times and dates in your local timezone.
  • Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance.
  • Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely.
  • Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net.
If you are already a member then feel free to login now.




Made in us
Journeyman Inquisitor with Visions of the Warp




If we could just get always on Bolter discipline, that would be nice.

So I just recently re-encouraged my friend to dust off his 1kSons army and start playing me (We both got our second shot last week!) And I have two questions:

1. In order to make him feel less gimped, I have given the wound bump to his Rubrics, and his Scarabs now get 3. To bring them more in line with other factions. Does anyone consider this broken?

2. Would it be an unfriendly jerk move to field an all terminator list since I pretty much know he's going with an Sorcerer/DP list with loads of Rubs and Scarabs?
   
Made in de
[DCM]
Aspirant Tech-Adept






If you give them an points bumb to compensate - no, definately not. Marines paid 4 pts for that extra wounds, that should be a good base to start.

Custodes Terminators are not tougher than Custodes Guard unless you use strats and/or shields. So an all Term list would be fine in my book.

Data author of DA/AdM on Battlescribe
Report bugs here:
https://github.com/BSData/wh40k/issues 
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut




 Thairne wrote:
If you give them an points bumb to compensate - no, definately not. Marines paid 4 pts for that extra wounds, that should be a good base to start.

Custodes Terminators are not tougher than Custodes Guard unless you use strats and/or shields. So an all Term list would be fine in my book.


The issue is that custodes are not worth their points right now comparing them to similar units. Like, for 25 points less, deathshroud terminators are strictly superior to Allarus. They have remarkably similar stats and both have good strat support. But deathshroud are just flat much cheaper with a better army rule.

And this is a thing for the entire custodes army.
   
Made in us
Stoic Grail Knight




FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:
If we could just get always on Bolter discipline, that would be nice.

So I just recently re-encouraged my friend to dust off his 1kSons army and start playing me (We both got our second shot last week!) And I have two questions:

1. In order to make him feel less gimped, I have given the wound bump to his Rubrics, and his Scarabs now get 3. To bring them more in line with other factions. Does anyone consider this broken?

2. Would it be an unfriendly jerk move to field an all terminator list since I pretty much know he's going with an Sorcerer/DP list with loads of Rubs and Scarabs?


Even without the wounds bump you're the -unfavored- matchup here. So I'd say nothing you do is unfair.
   
Made in us
Journeyman Inquisitor with Visions of the Warp




Really? I mean I get we have "weak" psyker defense, but still, his units are not that good, and he has zero really good defenses against two large squads of terminators showing up turn 2, and slaughtering his sorcerers, and maybe a DP or two. Can you give me some pointers on what to look out for against 1k Sons?
   
Made in us
Stoic Grail Knight




FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:
Really? I mean I get we have "weak" psyker defense, but still, his units are not that good, and he has zero really good defenses against two large squads of terminators showing up turn 2, and slaughtering his sorcerers, and maybe a DP or two. Can you give me some pointers on what to look out for against 1k Sons?


Just mass MW spam. Maybe your guy doesn't have a good collection, but he should be able to screen out T2 deep strike charges and retaliate with anywhere from 15-30MW per turn at about 24" range. Infernal Gateway, Doombolt, Smite, Bolt of Change, e.t.c.

An optimized list would have Magnus and maybe a patrol detachment of Word Bearers. Watch out for Volkite Contemptor Dreads with prescience. They'll fish for MW as well and hit you with a fair amount.
   
Made in us
Journeyman Inquisitor with Visions of the Warp




He is going to be fielding mostly Rubrics, Scarabs, and two DPs and a few Ex Sorcs + Arhiman. So Lotsa MW spam. My hope is to hold Objectives while ambushing his characters with Slayer of Tyrants. I mean at worst 20-30 shots of S4 bolter fire with d2 damage should do most of my work for me.
   
Made in us
Stoic Grail Knight




FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:
He is going to be fielding mostly Rubrics, Scarabs, and two DPs and a few Ex Sorcs + Arhiman. So Lotsa MW spam. My hope is to hold Objectives while ambushing his characters with Slayer of Tyrants. I mean at worst 20-30 shots of S4 bolter fire with d2 damage should do most of my work for me.


It'll work on Ahriman and Sorc's. You'll need to get lucky to take out a DP (or use Superior Fire Patterns and be in Rapid Fire range, in which case it swings back to one-rounding the DP I think).
   
Made in us
Journeyman Inquisitor with Visions of the Warp




Can I ask which specific 1kSons spells I need to look out for and block when I see them come up?
   
Made in us
Stoic Grail Knight




FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:
Can I ask which specific 1kSons spells I need to look out for and block when I see them come up?


1kSons or CSM in general? Makes a big difference.

Block Infernal Gateway if he rolls an 11+. It's basically a 3" AoE 1D6 MW Smile at that point.

Doombolt is another one to stop but conditional. It halves your movement and effects charging so only bother if it's on a unit that needs to go somewhere or charge.

Warp Reality let's them pick a terrain piece and then a unit within 3" of that terrain piece and halve movement and -1 to advance and charge (cult of mutation). Another one to block if somebody has to go somewhere.

Warptime is a big one, obviously.
.after that it's just deny based on importance/board position/objectives, e.t.c.
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut




1ksons are bad enough that even targeting the custodes mortal wound weakness probably doesn't help them.


   
Made in us
Journeyman Inquisitor with Visions of the Warp




Thats why I gave him the wound increase.
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut




Re: the discussion on the prior page, the big issue IMO is how pathetic custodes damage is in a world of 9th edition stat inflation. Defense is fine, but everything in the army hits like wet noodles for their points except the FW dreads. It means the only option the army has is to build for durability and try to win on the mission while playing defensively, which really limits how you can play the game. The reason people are souping so much competitively is because the book itself just doesn't have the tools to actually kill anything.
   
Made in at
Dakka Veteran




yukishiro1 wrote:
Re: the discussion on the prior page, the big issue IMO is how pathetic custodes damage is in a world of 9th edition stat inflation. Defense is fine, but everything in the army hits like wet noodles for their points except the FW dreads. It means the only option the army has is to build for durability and try to win on the mission while playing defensively, which really limits how you can play the game. The reason people are souping so much competitively is because the book itself just doesn't have the tools to actually kill anything.


I think we are going to get fixed dmg weapons in our codex update. Right now it feels lackluster, but as you said...at least our dreadnoughts are amazing. I mean the telemon is imo the best dreadnought in the game. And the achillus and galatus see more and more play. John Lennon is piloting a very successful custodes/imperium soup lists right now with 2 telemons and 3 galatus dreadnoughts.

I am also putting my vote in here that Trajanns watchers axe should be flat 4 dmg
   
Made in us
Stoic Grail Knight




yukishiro1 wrote:
Re: the discussion on the prior page, the big issue IMO is how pathetic custodes damage is in a world of 9th edition stat inflation. Defense is fine, but everything in the army hits like wet noodles for their points except the FW dreads. It means the only option the army has is to build for durability and try to win on the mission while playing defensively, which really limits how you can play the game. The reason people are souping so much competitively is because the book itself just doesn't have the tools to actually kill anything.


Your defense feels fine till you hit the Magnus + Lord of Change list. Then it's basically useless since 100% of the list's damage output is MW.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/04/17 12:49:06


 
   
Made in us
Journeyman Inquisitor with Visions of the Warp




However, they still haven't gotten the +1 wound update, so unless you are giving them the buff out of courtesy, they are still as Drak calls them "Paper people" and fall very easily to our weapons.
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut




Audustum wrote:
yukishiro1 wrote:
Re: the discussion on the prior page, the big issue IMO is how pathetic custodes damage is in a world of 9th edition stat inflation. Defense is fine, but everything in the army hits like wet noodles for their points except the FW dreads. It means the only option the army has is to build for durability and try to win on the mission while playing defensively, which really limits how you can play the game. The reason people are souping so much competitively is because the book itself just doesn't have the tools to actually kill anything.


Your defense feels fine till you hit the Magnus + Lord of Change list. Then it's basically useless since 100% of the list's damage output is MW.


It's almost as if Custodes should have some cheap action monkey sidekicks who hard counter psychic armies...


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Tiberias wrote:
yukishiro1 wrote:
Re: the discussion on the prior page, the big issue IMO is how pathetic custodes damage is in a world of 9th edition stat inflation. Defense is fine, but everything in the army hits like wet noodles for their points except the FW dreads. It means the only option the army has is to build for durability and try to win on the mission while playing defensively, which really limits how you can play the game. The reason people are souping so much competitively is because the book itself just doesn't have the tools to actually kill anything.


I think we are going to get fixed dmg weapons in our codex update. Right now it feels lackluster, but as you said...at least our dreadnoughts are amazing. I mean the telemon is imo the best dreadnought in the game. And the achillus and galatus see more and more play. John Lennon is piloting a very successful custodes/imperium soup lists right now with 2 telemons and 3 galatus dreadnoughts.

I am also putting my vote in here that Trajanns watchers axe should be flat 4 dmg


IMO the issue is not even so much fixed damage as volume of attacks. Custodes Guard are 52 points a model with shields and have 3 attacks, fewer than a 19 point assault intercessor. Yes, they're better quality attacks, but just burying custodes in bodies is too viable a strategy right now given their inability to actually cut through hordes efficiently. Custodes need +1 attack across the board, and the spears and axes should probably have dual profiles with a sweep option the way deathshrouds do.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/04/17 18:29:11


 
   
Made in us
Stoic Grail Knight




yukishiro1 wrote:
Audustum wrote:
yukishiro1 wrote:
Re: the discussion on the prior page, the big issue IMO is how pathetic custodes damage is in a world of 9th edition stat inflation. Defense is fine, but everything in the army hits like wet noodles for their points except the FW dreads. It means the only option the army has is to build for durability and try to win on the mission while playing defensively, which really limits how you can play the game. The reason people are souping so much competitively is because the book itself just doesn't have the tools to actually kill anything.


Your defense feels fine till you hit the Magnus + Lord of Change list. Then it's basically useless since 100% of the list's damage output is MW.


It's almost as if Custodes should have some cheap action monkey sidekicks who hard counter psychic armies...


Except we don't? Most of these are casting from greater than 18" out because of the TKSons +6" range bonus and don't have to target the closest unit. This ain't Smite spam.

If you throw the SoS as a full frontline your 'real army's is also now way too far back. Here, let me post an example list of these things:


Battalion Detachment Chaos – Daemons

Chaos Allegiance: Chaos Undivided

Stratagems

Rewards of Chaos (1 Relic)

HQ

Keeper of Secrets, -1CP
. Hysterical Frenzy
. Symphony of Pain
. Smite
. Shining aegis
. Snapping claws
. Soulstealer,
. Witstealer sword
. Exalted Keeper of Secrets: 2. Quicksilver Reflexes

Lord of Change, -1CP
. Bolt of Change
. Boon of Change,
. Infernal Gateway
. Smite
. Staff of Tzeentch
. The Impossible Robe
. Baleful sword
Exalted Lord of Change – Roll 2

Troops

Nurglings
. 4x Nurgling Swarms: 4x Diseased claws and teeth

Nurglings
. 4x Nurgling Swarms: 4x Diseased claws and teeth

Nurglings,
. 3x Nurgling Swarms: 3x Diseased claws and teeth

Nurglings
. 3x Nurgling Swarms: 3x Diseased claws and teeth

Nurglings
. 3x Nurgling Swarms: 3x Diseased claws and teeth

Nurglings
. 3x Nurgling Swarms: 3x Diseased claws and teeth

Fast Attack

Furies 45pts: Mark of Nurgle
. 5x Fury: 5x Daemonic claws

Furies 45pts: Mark of Nurgle
. 5x Fury: 5x Daemonic claws

Supreme Command Detachment Chaos – Death Guard

Mortarion
. Miasma of Pestilence
. Gift of Contagion
. Gift of Plagues
. Smite
. Warlord

Super-Heavy Auxiliary Detachment Chaos – Thousand Sons

Magnus the Red
. Temporal Manipulation
. Warptime,
. Weaver of Fates
. Smite


Range issue aside, SoS don't last long in the front on this anyway. If they aren't in the front the aura has no chance to help.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2021/04/17 18:36:59


 
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut






SoS arent bad except that they take up an elite slot, which we already have a shortage of in anything but a battalion.

If your running a battalion, sure toss some in, but they do not survive more than 1 turn to do what you took them for (unless your taking 2 prosecutor squads to hold objectives).

Yes, if you know your fighting a psycher heavy army, you can take Aquillon shield to bodyguard a squad of them, but then they still arent up front where they need to be, and the shield host is crap on all other fronts.


Mortal wounds are simply too prevelent nowadays to cost Custodes appropriately against armies that dont dish out mortal wounds. This is a problem competitively, because to balance custodes against other armies we are too weak at tournaments, and to balance us for tournaments, we are too strong for casual play.

I honestly dont know how to fix it.

I play Custodes at tournaments though, so I obviously want to be on the stronger end.

JOIN MY CRUSADE and gain 4000 RT points!
http://www.eternalcrusade.com/account/sign-up/?ref_code=EC-PLCIKYCABW8PG 
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut




100% agree on SoS being in a terrible slot. They need to do what they've done with other codexes and let you take 1 SoS squad without taking up a slot for each Custodes squad you take (maybe each Troops or Elites choice, if you want to limit it further).

But they are super effective against the Morty and Magnus list. That list someone posted literally has zero shooting (ok, Morty has a single shot weapon), and a single - yes, one - MW psychic power that's targeted (only 18" range, too). It very much *is* smite spam, and SoS hard counter smite spam.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/04/17 19:18:50


 
   
Made in us
Stoic Grail Knight




yukishiro1 wrote:
100% agree on SoS being in a terrible slot. They need to do what they've done with other codexes and let you take 1 SoS squad without taking up a slot for each Custodes squad you take (maybe each Troops or Elites choice, if you want to limit it further).

But they are super effective against the Morty and Magnus list. That list someone posted literally has zero shooting (ok, Morty has a single shot weapon), and a single - yes, one - MW psychic power that's targeted (only 18" range, too). It very much *is* smite spam, and SoS hard counter smite spam.


In that particular list your front line SoS are smashed by a Warp Timed Morty (24" Fly + Charge). Remember, Magnus's warptime is 9" range so you're never stopping it with strat or Deny. If you're too far back for Morty, then whatever IS in front gets blown up with spells from safely outside your aura.

Some variants of that list trade the Keeper for double Volkite Contemptors, which will ALSO wreck your SoS day.
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut




If someone is having to use Morty to kill 60 points of SoS, you should be very happy to take that trade.

You said that list doesn't use smite spam and instead uses targeted MW powers, and you posted a list as an example...that didn't have any shooting and had a single targeted MW power. You can obviously come up with other lists that are less hard countered by SoS (though again, shooting doesn't happen until after the psychic phase and you're still happy having someone wasting volkite contemptors on SoS), but that doesn't mean the list you posted wasn't a perfect example of how effective SoS are, not how ineffective they are.

That list would also be illegal with contemptors, BTW, as it'd have four detachments. You can't take Morty, Magnus, a Daemon detachment, AND a DG (or CSM) detachment.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/04/17 19:52:44


 
   
Made in us
Journeyman Inquisitor with Visions of the Warp




I'm not going to lie, The Sword maidens need to be 5pts cheaper, the gun gals need to be 5pts more, and they need to have an invuln available to them maybe a strat? I would love to use the Prosecutors more but their cost is just too high. I love watching people frown as I count how many auto hits I have racked up from a ten person squad holding an objective. "Annnd that'll be 36 hits....."
   
Made in gb
Sagitarius with a Big F'in Gun




Bath

yukishiro1 wrote:
100% agree on SoS being in a terrible slot. They need to do what they've done with other codexes and let you take 1 SoS squad without taking up a slot for each Custodes squad you take (maybe each Troops or Elites choice, if you want to limit it further).


I imagine they are shying away form that because they dont want to give us cheap objective camping squads, because being short on bodies and having to "waste" high quality troops on holding objectives is part of the custodes playstyle, as payback for having termie statlines on line infantry. It's very much in line with the decision to move space marine Scouts form Troops to Elite, as a counter to previous usage of them to pay "troops tax" on Force Org charts.

They can't really make them Troops for us because that would grant the "elite ++" army a 60 point obsec point camper, when the Space marines have to pay 90pts for a 5 man tac squad to do more or less the same thing.

In other words, they want to deincentivise you form using them to hold backfield objectives, and to make you use them in a more lore appropriate role. one way to do that is to make you "pay" for the privilege, limiting your ability to skimp on line troops and then splurge on elites, by blocking out elite slots with these cheap objective campers.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/04/17 20:34:43


Then it's Tommy this, an' Tommy that, an` Tommy, 'ow's yer soul? "
But it's " Thin red line of 'eroes " when the drums begin to roll
The drums begin to roll, my boys, the drums begin to roll,
O it's " Thin red line of 'eroes, " when the drums begin to roll.
"Tommy", Rudyard Kipling
500pts
1000 pts
 
   
Made in us
Stoic Grail Knight




yukishiro1 wrote:
If someone is having to use Morty to kill 60 points of SoS, you should be very happy to take that trade.

You said that list doesn't use smite spam and instead uses targeted MW powers, and you posted a list as an example...that didn't have any shooting and had a single targeted MW power. You can obviously come up with other lists that are less hard countered by SoS (though again, shooting doesn't happen until after the psychic phase and you're still happy having someone wasting volkite contemptors on SoS), but that doesn't mean the list you posted wasn't a perfect example of how effective SoS are, not how ineffective they are.

That list would also be illegal with contemptors, BTW, as it'd have four detachments. You can't take Morty, Magnus, a Daemon detachment, AND a DG (or CSM) detachment.


You drop one of the three smash bros for Contemptors.

60 points of SoS is just -1. Your opponent will laugh and ignore if that's what you brought. Both the Bird and Magnus are +2 to cast and have enough Move and range to target whatever they need from outside such a small aura field. You're needing 3 squads minimum before they even care. Even then, with range and positioning they can probably still manage to only be in range of 1 or 2 units on T1.

If you turtle up so hard 3 squads cover everything with perfect overlapping fields I think they'd just thank you as you're a total non-factor on primary points at that time. You MUST come out and you're going to need more units to screen them out.

It doesn't matter if they die in shooting or assault T1. You're still boned the remaining 4 rounds.

It has more than 1 psyker power that is not Smite. Bolt of Change is one as is Infernal Gateway (indeed, Infernal is an AoE that hits everything within 3" of the unit you targeted) AND they have a Stratagem to swap a psychic power for another psychic power (meaning in our matchup you're almost certainly getting hit by Doombolt too).

I'm not sure you're really getting the intricacies of these kind of lists.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/04/17 20:46:20


 
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut




First you said it's not a smite spam list but instead a targeted MW list, and then posted a smite spam list with only a single targeted MW power (yes, Magnus could swap in one more, but if it's Doombolt in particular, you're pretty happy for him to do that as you'd usually much rather have him be attempting an only 50% cast MW power and have to forgo either warptime, smite or weaver).

Then you said you could swap out a KoS for contemptors, which would be an illegal list.

As politely as possible...judging by what you've written, I don't think I'm the one who is missing the intricacies of the list.

But I don't want to get into personal sniping. If you think SoS are junk, it's no skin off my back.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/04/17 23:12:52


 
   
Made in us
Stoic Grail Knight




yukishiro1 wrote:
First you said it's not a smite spam list but instead a targeted MW list, and then posted a smite spam list with only a single targeted MW power (yes, Magnus could swap in one more, but if it's Doombolt in particular, you're pretty happy for him to do that as you'd usually much rather have him be attempting an only 50% cast MW power and have to forgo either warptime, smite or weaver).

Then you said you could swap out a KoS for contemptors, which would be an illegal list.

As politely as possible...judging by what you've written, I don't think I'm the one who is missing the intricacies of the list.

But I don't want to get into personal sniping. If you think SoS are junk, it's no skin off my back.


I don't think they're junk. I said they don't solve this problem.

It had more than one though? Even without the strat? I said it's not Smite spam and it's not. I corrected you on that in the previous post.

The KoS was my error in saying. People DO swap the KoS but it's usually for Beasts of Nurgle. Morty gets turned into a 'normal' DG detachment with other alterations to bring the Contemptor (that's TJ Lanigan's version up there, most others don't bring so many Nurglings either).

You haven't really addressed any of the reasons why SoS don't work to help here do I imagine you're as or will be as stumped as the rest of us when trying to move beyond that.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/04/17 23:22:35


 
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut




SoS counter anything that isn't targeted MWs. Infernal Gateway is not targeted MWs, it targets the closest model, just like smite. It splashes 3" from the model - not the unit, you were wrong on the "intricacies" there again BTW - but you'd have to be pretty silly to let it splash onto something you don't want it to. It's also only 12" range when cast by the LoC, so by definition if they're casting it on your SoS, you're within the bubble to deny it on a 3+ and debuff the casting, so again, you're pretty happy with that.

SoS are area denial against a psychic MW list, and they're very useful for that. It allows you to channel where your opponent's big models can go and still be able to smite.

The object isn't to stop them from smiting anything, it's to force them to make the choice between being where they would otherwise want to be and having their smites and potentially other powers soaked or strat denied by the SoS. The - to cast isn't the important part of the unit (though if they actually ignore the unit and take the penalty over and over it's actually a lot more effective than you give it credit for at -1), the important parts are the smite soak and the 3+ deny strat w/in 18".

The dumbest possible thing you could do with SoS against a Magnus and Morty list is just deploy them up in a line in front (well, besides clustering them to try to get a -2 or more, that'd be even dumber I guess). That list isn't going to be casting MWs at you much on T1 anyway, certainly not if they're going first. What you want to do is figure out where your opponent is going to want to send his big models, and put the SoS in a place (our of LOS if they have shooting, though that list doesn't so it doesn't even matter) where they can come out and block smites and threaten with the 3+ deny AFTER your opponent's models move. The thing about that list is that their big models really can't afford to position to avoid your SoS because they need to be where they need to be to do their stuff, so you're giving them a bad choice between just sucking up the soaking and the 3+ deny or making a big mistake by moving somewhere ineffective to avoid it.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2021/04/17 23:54:49


 
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut





Denison, Iowa

Looking at the recent weapons stat boosts for Dark Eldar and Admech, I really have no doubt that Custodes will get the same treatment. I fully suspect our spears and axes will have their ranged attacks upped to Rapid Fire 2 and possibly better AP.

Swords, axes, and spears will all likely get the appropriate strength boost in close combat.

Is this enough to put us on even footing? Well, maybe?
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut




Custodes need an additional attack across the board more than they need more S on the close combat weapons IMO, and the spears and axes badly need a sweep profile to allow for clearing trash.

Bolter discipline would also be a bit of a no-brainer; it really makes little sense that space marines get so many more attacks and so many more shots than custodes, which are supposed to be marines on steroids. And the 6+ ignore MWs in the psychic phase feels a bit meh at this point, if it's going to be psychic phase only it should probably go to a 5+ at least, or just go to a 5+ ignore MWs period, that probably wouldn't be particularly overpowered; they'd still be good at cutting through the defenses, just not quite so good.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/04/18 00:56:42


 
   
 
Forum Index » 40K Tactics
Go to: