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So this idea popped into my tiny mind. The Dev star.
A 5 man devastator unit with lascannons.
Put the Tau Tech Warfare commander in it. It now has, Twin linked and ignore cover. With the possibility of Either tank hunter or Monster hunter.
This unit can eat tanks and monsterous creatures for breakfest

I shoot at you with two Wave Serpents. Take 21 saves. Where is your Dev star now?

That's the problem with Devastators now. You look at the new SM book and think that, hey, 150 points for four lascannons seems pretty good, but... On the tabletop they just fall apart when someone shoots at them.

To make the unit be able to withstand at least a little bit of fire power you'll need to get the Tau Commander an Iridium Suit and possibly also a shield generator, so he can tank most of the shots coming your way, and a couple extra bodies for him to put high strength shots on, but at that point you're not only sinking 350ish points into your unit, but there's also the opportunity cost of not getting more out of your Tau Commander (specifically, putting him with the allied Riptide, or Centurions).

It is a fun unit, though, and the concept is appealing, but unfortunately I don't really think it works very well.

I hope to plane to see how it works. If not I may scrap the idea for a Sternguard squad. And Tanking the wounds with the commander is a plan.
I was also thinking heavy bolters or Missile with them.

How do you get 21 saves from 2 wave serpents?

D6 S7 and 7 S6 shots if in range.

The average number of shots is 21, but there is 1/6 fail to wound and some 12% miss rate, meaning you lose ~ 5 of those shots rolling hits and wounding.

16 saves is probably your mean result (without actually doing the math).

I agree that the devastators are a bit vulnerable without the extra 5 bodies to soak up wounds. I'd recommend taking them or else you're putting too many eggs in the "getting first turn" basket.

 Dracos wrote:
How do you get 21 saves from 2 wave serpents?

I didn't actually do the math, I just recalled someone talking about a Serpent doing 10.5 wounds on Marines, and since it was just an example to underline my point I didn't really bother to verify it.

But whether it's 2 Serpents or 3 Serpents, or a Drop Podding squad of Sternguards, or anything else, the amount of fire power it takes to drop five Devastators and a Tau Commander without Iridium Armour is not exactly rare, and beefing up the squad to avoid dropping like flies turns it into a relatively expensive unit, and at that point I don't think it's worth it anymore.

Thud wrote:

 Dracos wrote:
How do you get 21 saves from 2 wave serpents?

I didn't actually do the math, I just recalled someone talking about a Serpent doing 10.5 wounds on Marines, and since it was just an example to underline my point I didn't really bother to verify it.

But whether it's 2 Serpents or 3 Serpents, or a Drop Podding squad of Sternguards, or anything else, the amount of fire power it takes to drop five Devastators and a Tau Commander without Iridium Armour is not exactly rare, and beefing up the squad to avoid dropping like flies turns it into a relatively expensive unit, and at that point I don't think it's worth it anymore.

Well, I have ran this unit before and it straight up feels like cheating it's so good. Put the buffmander with iridium in front and take the extra marines, and every turn you will destroy a tank or seriously wound a MC. It may not seem like it will do that well on paper, but the commander can tank all but str10 shots with ease. The only downside to it is that you can only run one of them.

EDIT: Here's a list I ran around with. Taking the longstrike hammerhead was amazing as well.

http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/548163.page

Comparing Devastators to a unit designed to kill infantry is silly. Wave Serpents are irritatingly good at killing just about everything. A unit of Sternguard is also good at destroying back line infantry.

You're telling us that infantry dies to things that kill infantry. Duh.

This may come as a shock to some people but buffing commander plus any unit is good. Now the only 'real' choices you have to pair your commander with are broadsides, crisis suits, riptides, dark reapers, devastators and centurions. Each has its own advantages and weaknesses. I have been looking at centurions w/ a commander, they have a short range but 15 tl gav shots will just kill one unit a turn.

Thud wrote:
I shoot at you with two Wave Serpents. Take 21 saves. Where is your Dev star now?

That's the problem with Devastators now. You look at the new SM book and think that, hey, 150 points for four lascannons seems pretty good, but... On the tabletop they just fall apart when someone shoots at them.

To make the unit be able to withstand at least a little bit of fire power you'll need to get the Tau Commander an Iridium Suit and possibly also a shield generator, so he can tank most of the shots coming your way, and a couple extra bodies for him to put high strength shots on, but at that point you're not only sinking 350ish points into your unit, but there's also the opportunity cost of not getting more out of your Tau Commander (specifically, putting him with the allied Riptide, or Centurions).

It is a fun unit, though, and the concept is appealing, but unfortunately I don't really think it works very well.

BTW, 21saves on a Tau commander with 2+ and FnP = 2 wounds roughly. His devstar is in full effect.

Cool, I still dont have the codex(My friend said I can just use DA point values for a rough approx) so I will try the devstar when I do

Add 70 points for 5 ablative wounds. Las cannons and tau commanders are too expensive in cost per wound to be absorbing dakka.

 schadenfreude wrote:
Add 70 points for 5 ablative wounds. Las cannons and tau commanders are too expensive in cost per wound to be absorbing dakka.

If your not using your Tau commander to tank and buff, he's too expensive in the first place. You pay for how tough he is, use it to keep your unit alive. If the unit is dead, the commander's usefulness diminishes.

Thats like saying a chappy isnt that great in combat.
While true, its more about the buffs given by the character than the actual character himself.

Could be interesting to see a massive horde unit making use of this buff on shooting.
Granted it would only be good for grinding through infantry, bu8t still has a use.


Also, more OT.
I think paying the price for a commander and an extra 5 marines is more than worth it.
4 lascannon shots that are pretty much sure to hit every turn is pretty damn good.
You can guarantee an AV target will die each turn, and more importantly, at the sort of range where return fire is very minimal.

The price is paid for alone by the range in my eyes.
Drop a unit of melta-stern to pop armour and they die quickly.
Devs sat back on a skyshield or behind a line blasting away wont be going anywhere for a while since most long range weapons tend to be anti-tank.
Your not going to be firing a missile or lascannon at a unit of infantry unless theres no other targets for it.
And even if that is the case, you have plenty of spare wounds and anti-tank fire tends to be in a small volume compared to anti-infantry.

It seems more practical to just take 10-man squads of Imperial Fists Devastators if you want to do this. Sure, you don't have Ignores Cover, Twin-Linked, or Monster Hunter, but you also cost a lot less! Tank Hunters is the most relevant ability the Tau Commander provides anyway.

 hotsauceman1 wrote:
So this idea popped into my tiny mind. The Dev star.
A 5 man devastator unit with lascannons.
Put the Tau Tech Warfare commander in it. It now has, Twin linked and ignore cover. With the possibility of Either tank hunter or Monster hunter.
This unit can eat tanks and monsterous creatures for breakfest

It sure can, but this is not what a deathstar is.

I just hear people put "Star" at the end of certain units that are strong.

That is a great idea! I like your devstar. I think I may try it with my Ultramarines.

 Kingsley wrote:
It seems more practical to just take 10-man squads of Imperial Fists Devastators if you want to do this. Sure, you don't have Ignores Cover, Twin-Linked, or Monster Hunter, but you also cost a lot less! Tank Hunters is the most relevant ability the Tau Commander provides anyway.

IMO, it is twin-link and ignore cover. That also makes them much more effective against flyers (and in particular, the dreaded helturkeys), something marines are not too great at.

I agree with jy2 and kingsley here.

So why is tank hunter the most relevant?
Against nids and daemons your going to be firing them at MC's, and riptides are fair game against tau too.

Now i rather fire with TL and ignores cover instead of tank hunter, because i know those shots are going through anything they hit.
Rather than running the risk of missing, or the shot being stopped by a cover save.

Why not just ally in the Broadside bomb with 10 kroot and a tech warfare commander?

its like 500 points for the commander with all relevant upgrades, 3 broadsides with target locks and missile drones, and 10 kroot.

There, now you have 28 TL S7 AP4 ignoring cover missiles with tank/monster hunter. You can also split fire to effectively kill 4 vehicles per turn via drones, and each broadside picking a different target.

 jy2 wrote:
That is a great idea! I like your devstar. I think I may try it with my Ultramarines.

 Kingsley wrote:
It seems more practical to just take 10-man squads of Imperial Fists Devastators if you want to do this. Sure, you don't have Ignores Cover, Twin-Linked, or Monster Hunter, but you also cost a lot less! Tank Hunters is the most relevant ability the Tau Commander provides anyway.

IMO, it is twin-link and ignore cover. That also makes them much more effective against flyers (and in particular, the dreaded helturkeys), something marines are not too great at.

Also, because it is SM allies, Im taking Tigarious, So it is not an option for IMP

 obsidiankatana wrote:
Comparing Devastators to a unit designed to kill infantry is silly. Wave Serpents are irritatingly good at killing just about everything. A unit of Sternguard is also good at destroying back line infantry.

You're telling us that infantry dies to things that kill infantry. Duh.

That really wasn't my point, though.

My point was that this is that a minimum unit of this (Commander without Iridium and 5 Devs) costs a lot more than 8 Tactical Marines and dies just as easily.


Then, if you add five more Devastators, put Iridium Armour, Retro-Thrusters and Stimms on the Tau Commander, you have a unit at about 400 points. And I don't really think that's worth it.

Tau Commander as described above - 160pts.
5 Devs with four LC - 150pts.
Totals to 310pts.

8 Tac marines - 112pts.

The wisdom of comparing these two is rather nonexistent, but hey, let's run the numbers. We'll take those 21 Wave Serpent shots as the number.

21 3+ saves for the 8 tacs = 7 dead marines, 14 saves made.

21 2+ saves on the Commander = 3.5 wounds. 50/50 shot on the last wound that Commander lives and Devstar remains intact.

Assuming no FNP. Tack on the 15pt FNP and the Commander takes 2.33 wounds and the Devstar remains intact.

So no, they don't die just as easily. They're twice as survivable at the very least and unload unimaginably more firepower than eight tactical marines.

 obsidiankatana wrote:
Tau Commander as described above - 160pts.
5 Devs with four LC - 150pts.
Totals to 310pts.

8 Tac marines - 112pts.

The wisdom of comparing these two is rather nonexistent, but hey, let's run the numbers. We'll take those 21 Wave Serpent shots as the number.

21 3+ saves for the 8 tacs = 7 dead marines, 14 saves made.

21 2+ saves on the Commander = 3.5 wounds. 50/50 shot on the last wound that Commander lives and Devstar remains intact.

Assuming no FNP. Tack on the 15pt FNP and the Commander takes 2.33 wounds and the Devstar remains intact.

So no, they don't die just as easily. They're twice as survivable at the very least and unload unimaginably more firepower than eight tactical marines.

Add some more dakka from various sources, war walkers, warp spiders exc...

Call it an even 24 regular wounds and 6 rends/ap2 wounds dished out over 2 turns. assuming 4+ from an aegis The squad is down to 2 bodies.

Add 70 points of ablative wounds to los wounds onto the squad and 2 surviving devs turns into 4 lascannons still alive and 1.5 wounds left on the tau commander.

Another option is to upgrade the aegis to a bastion. 2 fire points is all that is needed for the dev squad.

Point for point a tau commander doesn't tank crap ap shots any better than 40 point single wound termies or gk ss.

sounds like this idea... is being stolen!

 obsidiankatana wrote:
Tau Commander as described above - 160pts.
5 Devs with four LC - 150pts.
Totals to 310pts.

8 Tac marines - 112pts.

The wisdom of comparing these two is rather nonexistent, but hey, let's run the numbers. We'll take those 21 Wave Serpent shots as the number.

21 3+ saves for the 8 tacs = 7 dead marines, 14 saves made.

21 2+ saves on the Commander = 3.5 wounds. 50/50 shot on the last wound that Commander lives and Devstar remains intact.

Assuming no FNP. Tack on the 15pt FNP and the Commander takes 2.33 wounds and the Devstar remains intact.

So no, they don't die just as easily. They're twice as survivable at the very least and unload unimaginably more firepower than eight tactical marines.

Who are you arguing against?

I explicitly wrote that WITHOUT iridium armour on the Commander, they'd be as survivable as 8 Tac Marines. I mistakenly thought the Commander had 3 wounds, so they'd actually be as survivable as 9 Tac Marines.

Now, again for the back of the class, try to comprehend the point I'm trying to make as I expand on what I thought was obvious:

Without Iridium Armour, the squad is too squishy for its point cost, and is vulnerable to most of the firepower any opposing army fields.

With Iridium Armour, survivability is increased against the stuff that easily took out the budget option, but there are still a lot of units that not only present a credible threat, but are fairly well-suited at, if not taking out the entire squad in one go, significantly damage its ability to provide useful output. For instance, Night Scythes, outflankers, deep strikers, etc. And that's just by circumventing the Commander's ability to tank wounds. Centurions, Grav-bikers, cover-ignoring Riptides, Demolisher cannons, etc can all blast it to bits.

Some of this can be mitigated by ablative wounds (for the Commander to pass hits on to, and to stop fast units from mowing down lascannon dudes from the side), but this costs points.

Then you're getting close to 400 points.

And, frankly, I doubt the unit is worth that price tag.