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I just noticed something about Adepta Sororitas Celestians, that they aren't actually the CC Sisters we always thought.

I went back and Checked the fluff on our Sisters from the 2nd. Edition Sisters of Battle Codex, The 2002 Chapter Approved, The 3rd. Edition Witch Hunters Codex, The 5th. Edition WD Codex and The 6th. Edition Adeta Sororitas Codex and noticed that apart from The Witch Hunters Codex the Celestians are just Veteran Ranged (Vet. Dominion and Retributors).with the Ranged Weapon options.

And our Seraphim are our actual CC unit, for a start apart from the 2nd. Edition which doesn't have Celestians look at the WS/BS which swings BS to Celestians and WS to Seraphim until they both went to Veteran WS/BS with the CC Faith given to Celestians when the Army wide Acts of Faith where dropped in The WD Sisters of Battle Codex.

Now from the WD onwards they have given the Celestians a Veterans Attack Statistic without the Wargear options or CC weapons. which makes the Seraphim with twin CCW's equal in CC with Hit and Run vs the CC AoF

Also in the fluff they both have been trained extensivly in the martial secrets of the Daughters of the Emperor.

Now to reiterate:
1) In Chapter Approved the CC unit is Seraphim with Higher WS, CCW's and Hit and Run vs. the Holy Hatred ability of Celestians in the first round of Combat.
2) In Codex Witch Hunters the CC unit is Seraphim again with the Stats now being identical, CCW's, Grenades and Hit and Run vs. the Holy Hatred ability of Celestians with limited usability (no Characters, MC).
3) In the WD Sisters of Battle Codex the CC unit is more balanced with the Stats now making Celestians have Veteran Attack and Leadership with a CC AoF vs. Seraphim with CCW's and Hit and Run.
4) In Codex Adepta Sororitas the CC unit is swinging back to Seraphim with the Stats of Celestians still having Veteran Attack and Leadership with a CC AoF now limited to on the charge vs. Seraphim with CCW's, Hit and Run and Hammer of Wrath from Jump Infantry.

So guys that to me shows that maybe we should make the analogy to C:SM that Celestians are equivalent to Sternguard and Seraphim are equivalent to Assault Marines.

Yep, the early days of the Sisters were quite different times. We also had special character Canonesses and zealot mobs. Armies just evolve over time, really. These units just happened to go in different directions.

Though it's worth pointing out that the Celestians have sort of gotten CC weapons in the latest codex, to go with their role of being CC-orientated. All five of the Celestians in the command squad can take power weapons, which is pretty fun. I'm hoping that the next codex will give the regular Celestians similar treatment too.

It's chiefly a matter of the fluff not being well-represented by the rules. Back in the days, Seraphim used to be the close combat experts, and the Canoness actually had a bodyguard of Veteran Seraphim on foot.

Then, the bodyguard got split off from the Seraphim and turned into Celestians, with the Seraphim now focusing entirely on their role as airborne assault troops. However, as bodyguards, it stands to reason that the Celestians should be experts at close combat, so as to better protect their commander. This is why the old Seraphim fit this role, after all.
And this is why some SoB players have been dreaming about Celestians getting stuff like power swords or storm shields. In the latest codex, at least they got one of the two.

If it were entirely up to me, I'd actually get rid of the Celestians and re-introduce the Seraphim-on-Foot, but that is chiefly because I don't see a need for two "high elite" squads in a single army, and because the old fluff made for a clearer progression through the Sisterhood's hierarchy. Although one could probably interpret the current fluff in a way that Seraphim are selected from new recruits based on their aptitude, whereas Celestians are nominated from amongst veterans - meaning, training vs experience.

 Lynata wrote:
I don't see a need for two "high elite" squads in a single army

I think that as long as they're made quite distinct, it works. Seraphim are already very defined in what they do, I think if Celestians got some more usefulness, the risk of them "stepping on each others toes" wouldn't be so much of an issue, since they'd be doing such different things.

On a semi-related note, one thing I noticed in the new codex is that Argent Shroud has come out looking like the most elite Order. The codex mentions them fielding a high number of Seraphim and Celestians, the two most elite troops.

 Lynata wrote:
Although one could probably interpret the current fluff in a way that Seraphim are selected from new recruits based on their aptitude

You could? The latest fluff seems to say that Seraphim are slected on the basis of faith, don't see any mention of aptitude factoring in.

Troike wrote:I think that as long as they're made quite distinct, it works. Seraphim are already very defined in what they do, I think if Celestians got some more usefulness, the risk of them "stepping on each others toes" wouldn't be so much of an issue, since they'd be doing such different things.

I mean purely from a perception PoV - as in ... who is the most elite now? Probably Celestians, as they are the veterans and get to supply the bodyguard? It just seems a bit of a shame that the Seraphim have apparently lost a bit of their old status due to this split. They come off as being no different than Assault Marines now, specialists for their role, whereas the Celestians are essentially Veteran Marines.

It's one of the small details where the Sisters used to be slightly different from Marine organisation (in that our "Veteran Marines" were simultaneously also the "Assault Marines"), but now we got this.

Troike wrote:You could? The latest fluff seems to say that Seraphim are slected on the basis of faith, don't see any mention of aptitude factoring in.

Sorry, I'm interpreting the 2E Codex bit about them being "exceptionally talented" as being still current, just that we now also have the Celestians, but those are not selected by talent evaluation but rather proven expertise.

Besides, how exactly does one gauge or measure "faith"? If there is some sort of evaluation protocol, it could well be that this means their aptitude. Gotta be exceptionally brave to use jump packs, I reckon - and faith means you can focus on your job rather than worry about yourself.

 Lynata wrote:
who is the most elite now? Probably Celestians

Their current fluff pretty much states this outright. It describes them as "the finest and noblest warriors of their Order".

 Lynata wrote:
It just seems a bit of a shame that the Seraphim have apparently lost a bit of their old status due to this split.

I don't know, look at how the new codex describes Seraphim Superiors. They're described as having the ear of the Canoness in war councils, as well as weilding "irreplacable" relics. Sounds very high-status to me. Maybe not on par with the Celestians overall, but they're still very special.

 Lynata wrote:
They come off as being no different than Assault Marines now, specialists for their role, whereas the Celestians are essentially Veteran Marines.

But, are Assault Marines chosen on the basis of their faith? That certainly sounds like a very Sororitas way to pick out specialists.

 Lynata wrote:
Besides, how exactly does one gauge or measure "faith"? If there is some sort of evaluation protocol, it could well be that this means their aptitude.

Probably some truth to that, actually. I imagine that for the SoB, fighting the hardest is some measure of faith, given that what theyh describe as "Acts of Faith" are heightened combat abilities.

Though, of course, showing exceptional devotion to worshiping the Emperor probably factors in too.

I see the Celestians as Ranged Veterans as per this quote used often for them:

Amongst their number are those Sisters who once served as Dominions and Retributors, meaning that Celestian Squads are supported with the weapons and wargear necessary to face a wide variety of threats.

Whereas Seraphim I see as our CC Veterans as per this quote used often for them:

Seraphim are schooled in their Order’s most ancient fighting techniques, learning to wield their sidearms in brutal melees as other warriors brandish knives and swords. Seraphim deflect the strikes of their foes with fluid grace before landing a killing blow of their own, typically with a point-blank headshot from a bolt pistol.

Celestians can fill the role, but I find the command squad is cheaper per point.

The problem is you need to take the cannoness to unlock it, which does not seem to be the best HQ option,

Troike wrote:I don't know, look at how the new codex describes Seraphim Superiors. They're described as having the ear of the Canoness in war councils, as well as weilding "irreplacable" relics. Sounds very high-status to me. Maybe not on par with the Celestians overall, but they're still very special.

Which I think doesn't really fit to how Celestians are supposed to be regarded. Does the Canoness listen to her Celestians and the Seraphim? Do both the Celestians and Seraphim get to wield those relics? When two suchs corps are competing for a specific thing, be it the ear of their commander or prioritisation in equipment distribution, it stands to reason one of them would have to lose out.

Troike wrote:But, are Assault Marines chosen on the basis of their faith?

In some Chapters, probably.

Though I meant this as an organisational thing, not recruitment practices. If we'd be looking for what makes Seraphim different, I'd point to dual-wielding pistols first - but that doesn't change that they used to be "more different" from Assault Marines than they are now, simply by having an expanded responsibility within the Order and more tasks aside from operating as airborne troops.

marcus.iscariat wrote:I see the Celestians as Ranged Veterans as per this quote used often for them [...] Whereas Seraphim I see as our CC Veterans as per this quote used often for them

So, according to that, who do you think would make more sense as a bodyguard for the Canoness?

 marcus.iscariat wrote:
I see the Celestians as Ranged Veterans as per this quote used often for them:

Amongst their number are those Sisters who once served as Dominions and Retributors, meaning that Celestian Squads are supported with the weapons and wargear necessary to face a wide variety of threats.

Though, on the other hand, this quote also appears in their description:

Celestians harness this ardour in battle, and it lends them the strength to split the skulls of alien savages in a single blow and smite hideous Daemons back into the Warp.

But we also see (emphasis mine):

Celestian Squads are supported with the weapons and wargear necessary to face a wide variety of threats.

So, one can also view them as being super-adaptable, able to turn their hands to any role that they might need to fill.

I think that a problem is that the ranged combat niche in the SoB army is pretty damn full. Give them ranged weapons, and they're competeting with some very good ranged units like Seraphim, Dominions and Retributors. This could be why the designers pushed them more towards a cc role, the problem with this being that they lack any close combat gear.

My solution for them would be ton give them some appropriate CC gear. That way, they fill a niche. The Repentia are your agressive, low-survivability high-damage chargers, while the Celestians could be more well-rounded, able to play a larger variety of roles, such as defense.

 Lynata wrote:
Which I think doesn't really fit to how Celestians are supposed to be regarded. Does the Canoness listen to her Celestians and the Seraphim? Do both the Celestians and Seraphim get to wield those relics? When two suchs corps are competing for a specific thing, be it the ear of their commander or prioritisation in equipment distribution, it stands to reason one of them would have to lose out.

The description for the Celestians doesn't mention anything about them in general having the ear of the Canoness, though. However, we can assume that the Celestian Superiors would, similarly to the Seraphim Superiors. So it's just a case of the Canoness respecting both of her elite leaders, I guess.

As for equipment/relic prioritisation, that's up for interpreation, given that the codex doesn't say anything about it. I assume that the regular Seraphim and Celestians wouldn't get any special treatment, but the Superiors might.

I can see where you're coming from about the awkwardness of having two elite groups in there, and some more defining of this area would be nice. Just distinguishing them some more would help.

Troike wrote:My solution for them would be ton give them some appropriate CC gear. That way, they fill a niche. The Repentia are your agressive, low-survivability high-damage chargers, while the Celestians could be more well-rounded, able to play a larger variety of roles, such as defense.

I like to see them as our knights.

Troike wrote:

 marcus.iscariat wrote:
I see the Celestians as Ranged Veterans as per this quote used often for them:

Amongst their number are those Sisters who once served as Dominions and Retributors, meaning that Celestian Squads are supported with the weapons and wargear necessary to face a wide variety of threats.

Though, on the other hand, this quote also appears in their description:

Celestians harness this ardour in battle, and it lends them the strength to split the skulls of alien savages in a single blow and smite hideous Daemons back into the Warp.

But we also see (emphasis mine):

Celestian Squads are supported with the weapons and wargear necessary to face a wide variety of threats.

So, one can also view them as being super-adaptable, able to turn their hands to any role that they might need to fill.

I think that a problem is that the ranged combat niche in the SoB army is pretty damn full. Give them ranged weapons, and they're competeting with some very good ranged units like Seraphim, Dominions and Retributors. This could be why the designers pushed them more towards a cc role, the problem with this being that they lack any close combat gear.

My solution for them would be ton give them some appropriate CC gear. That way, they fill a niche. The Repentia are your agressive, low-survivability high-damage chargers, while the Celestians could be more well-rounded, able to play a larger variety of roles, such as defense.

Now how I see things is that our Celestian's are the Veteran Dominion and Retributors transfered into their own Veteran company having more CCW's as they know from experience that they will enter CC and are Ranged combatants that are counter chargers to help those less knowledgable and call on their Holy Hatred to aid them.

Our main CC should be our raving psycho's the Arco-flagellants, Penitents, Priests, Repentia and their arguably more sensible friends the Crusaders and Deathcult Assassins as the Sisters aren't stupid enough to charge into CC when we can give the gifts of Bolt Shell, Holy Flame and Melta Blasts.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Lynata wrote:

marcus.iscariat wrote:I see the Celestians as Ranged Veterans as per this quote used often for them [...] Whereas Seraphim I see as our CC Veterans as per this quote used often for them

So, according to that, who do you think would make more sense as a bodyguard for the Canoness?

As to the bodyguard of the Canoness I believe the Celestians as Ranged Veterans with CC experience would wield whatever weapons deemed necessary to protect their leader and would probably tailor to their leaders style of war whether Ranged or in the thick of it.

Now if we ever get a Jump pack Cannoness back I believe she would have a Seraphim bodyguard.

 marcus.iscariat wrote:
Now how I see things is that our Celestian's are the Veteran Dominion and Retributors transfered into their own Veteran company

They're not all Doms and Rets, though. The current codex just says "Amongst their number are those Sisters who once served as Dominions and Retributors", not that they're all former Doms and Rets. From this, it seems that they come from other units too.

 marcus.iscariat wrote:
Our main CC should be our raving psycho's the Arco-flagellants, Penitents, Priests, Repentia and their arguably more sensible friends the Crusaders and Deathcult Assassins as the Sisters aren't stupid enough to charge into CC when we can give the gifts of Bolt Shell, Holy Flame and Melta Blasts.

Right, I agree that our emphasis is very much on ranged combat. However, that niche is damn crowded in the SoB. Other than making them ultra-customisable by giving all or most of them a free choice of any weapon, as in the command squad, I'm not seeing a way to make them particularly useable in ranged. And the designers seem to have a similar mindset, pushing them towards a CC role (though admittably they've done this rather half-heartedly), But with close combat, there's very much a niche for them. Most of those other CC units you described are all lightly armoured, and likely to go down pretty quick to gunfire. Celestians would be much more survivable in this role, they would add something.

 marcus.iscariat wrote:
As to the bodyguard of the Canoness I believe the Celestians as Ranged Veterans with CC experience would wield whatever weapons deemed necessary to protect their leader and would probably tailor to their leaders style of war whether Ranged or in the thick of it.

This is exactly what the command squad is like, in fact! Ultra-customisable Celestians who can take pretty much any weapon they need to fit whatever role they need to. Very appropriate for the bodyguard to the Canoness, very interesting to use on the tabletop. I think they're pretty good as they are right now, really. Though their AoF needs fixing.

marcus.iscariat wrote:As to the bodyguard of the Canoness I believe the Celestians as Ranged Veterans with CC experience would wield whatever weapons deemed necessary to protect their leader and would probably tailor to their leaders style of war whether Ranged or in the thick of it.

Nice dodge.

marcus.iscariat wrote:Now if we ever get a Jump pack Cannoness back [...]

I admit, I never really saw the Jumponess as a fluffy option - but this is purely a matter of interpretation.

Troike wrote:

marcus.iscariat wrote:Our main CC should be our raving psycho's the Arco-flagellants, Penitents, Priests, Repentia and their arguably more sensible friends the Crusaders and Deathcult Assassins as the Sisters aren't stupid enough to charge into CC when we can give the gifts of Bolt Shell, Holy Flame and Melta Blasts.

Most of those other CC units you described are all lightly armoured, and likely to go down pretty quick to gunfire. Celestians would be much more survivable in this role, they would add something.

Most of those other CC units also are not actually Sororitas units but something "on loan" from the Ecclesiarchy. Some people might be pedantic enough as to dismiss them purely out of the silly idea of running a 100% Sisterhood force.

But from where I stand, it's not even a matter of "stupidly charging into CC" (though I could see it deemed desirable under specific circumstances), but rather protecting their leader against an enemy charging her.
I mean, isn't this kind of our biggest weakness? And isn't a bodyguard intended to shield their charge?

Besides, we already have ranged experts. Ironically, what makes the Celestians different from Dominions or Retributors (aside from the 2nd attack and a higher Ld) is a +1 in WS. Go figure.

 Lynata wrote:
but rather protecting their leader against an enemy charging her.

Not all Celestians are bodyguards, though. But I think that CC still fits well with their fluf, since it talks about how Celestians inspire their comrades. Running up to the heretics and smiting them with a melee weapon certainly goes nicely with this.

 Lynata wrote:
Ironically, what makes the Celestians different from Dominions or Retributors (aside from the 2nd attack and a higher Ld) is a +1 in WS. Go figure.

Yeah, I sort of get the impression that the designers weren't quite sure what to do with the Celestians. They have a melee AoF and an extra attack, but no melee weapons. They have better WS and access to special and heavy weapons, but their AoF is melee-orientated. Not really sure what they were trying to achieve with them, myself.

 Troike wrote:

 Lynata wrote:
but rather protecting their leader against an enemy charging her.

Not all Celestians are bodyguards, though. But I think that CC still fits well with their fluf, since it talks about how Celestians inspire their comrades. Running up to the heretics and smiting them with a melee weapon certainly goes nicely with this.

 Lynata wrote:
Ironically, what makes the Celestians different from Dominions or Retributors (aside from the 2nd attack and a higher Ld) is a +1 in WS. Go figure.

Yeah, I sort of get the impression that the designers weren't quite sure what to do with the Celestians. They have a melee AoF and an extra attack, but no melee weapons. They have better WS and access to special and heavy weapons, but their AoF is melee-orientated. Not really sure what they were trying to achieve with them, myself.

You know what would've made for an excellent melee-oriented AoF that matters?

Celestians: All weapons count as Power Weapon of your choice.

 ZebioLizard2 wrote:
You know what would've made for an excellent melee-oriented AoF that matters?

Celestians: All weapons count as Power Weapon of your choice.

So, power bolters?

Though given the way AoFs now work, that'd kinda restrict them to being good in melee for only a turn, maybe two (unless with came with actual melee weapons as optional wargear). My vision for them is them being the longer-lasting, more well-rounded CC fighters, as opposed to the violent charge, low-armour playstyle of the Flagellants and the Repentia.

 Troike wrote:

 ZebioLizard2 wrote:
You know what would've made for an excellent melee-oriented AoF that matters?

Celestians: All weapons count as Power Weapon of your choice.

So, power bolters?

Though given the way AoFs now work, that'd kinda restrict them to being good in melee for only a turn, maybe two (unless with came with actual melee weapons as optional wargear). My vision for them is them being the longer-lasting, more well-rounded CC fighters, as opposed to the violent charge, low-armour playstyle of the Flagellants and the Repentia.

I suppose, but at the same time having Furious Charge as an AoF is just poor, you'd think for being once per game (up to three per extra), it'd be a bit better then +1S for S3 units.

Most of the AoF's are usually good enough, rending, ignores cover, reroll wounds/hits, but some stand out as being very poor, like the Canoness, and the Celestians.

Well if we are wish listing to make Celestians a CC unit give them all the original Sarissa's which for those that are new to Sisters was a CCW that attaches to a bolter that gives the Shred special rule on the charge without being able to use a second CCW which doesn't feel so overpowered while still being strong as it could be given by a Priests hymns without losing an Attack for 2 CCW's but would also allow an attached Priest to Smash and matches the Seraphims AoF but in CC which is more limited.

On the Marine comparison: apparently the Codex Astartes procession is Scout -> Devastator (long range specialist) -> Assault Marine (close combat specialist) -> Tactical Marine (who has to be master of both). It's in the 6th edition Marine codex under the bestiary entry for "Space Marines."

Whereas I get the impression that the Sororitas progression is less linear:
Novice ->
Battle Sister ->
- Seraphim (if ardently faithful) OR
- Dominion (if highly aggressive) OR
- Retributor (if super shooty)
And the best of all those branches are recruited for the Celestians.

 SisterSydney wrote:
On the Marine comparison: apparently the Codex Astartes procession is Scout -> Devastator (long range specialist) -> Assault Marine (close combat specialist) -> Tactical Marine (who has to be master of both). It's in the 6th edition Marine codex under the bestiary entry for "Space Marines."

Whereas I get the impression that the Sororitas progression is less linear:
Novice ->
Battle Sister ->
- Seraphim (if ardently faithful) OR
- Dominion (if highly aggressive) OR
- Retributor (if super shooty)
And the best of all those branches are recruited for the Celestians.

Correct with the Sororitas Comand Squad picked from the best Celestians with options for Sisters from the Orders Dialogus and Orders Hospitaller.

And then the Sisters that have to atone for one deed or another the Repentia and their doomed Sisters the Penitent Engines off the chart of progression.

The progression is different, but the end result is (somewhat*) similar when you look just at the squads and their role - that's what I meant, and what has been stated in the Codex Imperialis ("organised along similar lines as the Space Marine Chapters"), too.

The Sisters are, for the most part, still subject to the frailties of the human body - however well they may be trained from their very first year of living onward, the higher casualty rates and a biological lifespan of only 1/3 that of a Space Marine (excepting senior officers receiving juvenat treatment) pretty much necessitate a quicker readiness. They've already spent ~17 years just getting ready for their first combat assignment; if they would have to serve, say, even just a decade in each of the Sisterhood's militant speciality corps, they'd be wrinkled (47+) by the time they even have a chance at making rank and file Battle Sister (if you equal her to the Tactical Marine) ... not to mention that combat casualties would lead to severe shortages in the Major Orders, which see combat more often than the Space Marine Chapters, and are less able to cope with heavy injuries in the line of duty.

So the Sisterhood foregoes the entire "everybody can do everything" of the Astartes and instead selects the most promising candidates (apparently by having the Sister Superior keep an eye out for talent in her squad) to have them focus on a specific area of expertise. Those who survive long enough either become Superiors (if displaying leadership ability and/or perhaps "inheriting" this position from the old squad leader who would name them successor) or Celestian (if displaying particular skill and fervour at their work, combined with many years of experience).


(*: "somewhat" in that the Marines, in an attempt to maximise the potential of their 1k Codex limit, train their soldiers to ultimately fill any role, up to and including vehicle drivers on an "as needed" basis, whereas a Sister is likely to remain in a speciality once assigned)

Yeah, when you live less than a couple centuries, you can't take quite as much time to train.....

In fact, my headcanon rule of thumb is that 10% of Sisters die, are disabled, or otherwise leave the Orders Militant per year. This means -- and yes, I did a spreadsheet -- that less than half the Sisters make it to seven years of service and less than 10 percent to year 22. (0.1% make it to 70 years or more; those are the Canonesses on anti-aging drugs). I don't have the calculus to do the integration equation, but I think this gives you an average (mean) age in mid-20s and a median age around 20. Which would explain why so many of the Sisters in the pictures are young and pretty....

Of course, this may be too grimdark a calculation.

Oh, I could easily see this as a believable estimate for the Major Orders, given that they pretty much sail from one warzone to another. Service in the Big Six is bound to be short and glorious.

The Minor Orders probably have an easier time in that they "only" have to care for local threats, which are bound to be somewhat less threatening, just more persistent. Sure, maybe for a couple years the Order of Our Martyred Lady gets a streak of easy jobs burning down the farm houses of some native heretics, but at some point in time something like Armageddon happens and, boom, down to three companies. In contrast, the Ermine Mantle on Subiaco Diablo was busy chasing cultists through the hives for decades, and even though those on average surely weren't as dangerous as a million Orks working in concert, I could imagine a lot of attrition due to Vietnam-style traps in a dark and dirty urban environment. And then of course you get the frustrating jobs like playing shrine maiden on Agriworld Backwater IV, where nothing ever happens and the Sister gets to feel like that dude in Indiana Jones.

You have chosen....wisely.

Order of the Ebon Chalice?

Wooden Chalice. It's a Minor Order.

Well played. +1 for you.

Badum-tshhh.

So that's how you spell a rimshot.