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Flinty wrote:It may be past the point of relevance but I wanted to wander back to all those analogies surrounding the after-market car industry. Is the key issue here not to do with prior art and how generic the product is? Even if a particular cam or cylinder assembly will only fit a particular brand of car engine, can you actually copyright (or whatever) the details of an internal combustion engine, or is it considered too generic as they have been around for about 100 years?

Also has no-one here read the intro to all 40k books? It does seem to describe modern capitalism pretty well

You can definitely patent (not copyright) systems within an engine or vehicle - for example Ducati's desmodromic valve system is patented, as is BMW's Telelever/Paralever suspension systems.

If GW has its way, and limits what people make and are allowed to put on their models.
It will reduce peoples freemdom of expression.
As it stands now two people can build the same chapter, and still look unique.
If I buy a car I dont expect ford/mercedes etc to moan if I put wide wheels, spoilers, or even furry dice on it.
And if I build models, I reserve the right to modify them as I see fit.
And if that means that I want to buy 3rd party bits, Thats my right also.

The thing is....we are fast approaching a critical point where people will find they don't need GW. Independent sculptors/casting companies are becoming more and more common. Just think of when you started wargaming-----or maybe just flashback 5 years. Now compare the range of models (and quality) to what there is now...it's a tremendous change.

Add in the growing affordability of 3d printers and the advent of artists capable of making 3d designs, the communicability of the internet, the growing popularity of video games....well it's going to be a hard road for GW I think in 10-15 years. So, in the end, all they have is their IP which makes me understand (to a point!) why they are so aggressive in defending it. It's better to be too aggressive and wrong...well than not aggressive enough and find your brand becoming public venue. All of that said? I think they're being too aggressive here and I hope CH is successful.

AgeOfEgos wrote:The thing is....we are fast approaching a critical point where people will find they don't need GW. Independent sculptors/casting companies are becoming more and more common. Just think of when you started wargaming-----or maybe just flashback 5 years. Now compare the range of models (and quality) to what there is now...it's a tremendous change.

Agreed... being aggressive about IP can keep people from infringing, but eventually people realize that there is a large world of quality miniatures and game systems beyond that bubble... personally, if they were not as aggressive about it, I might have directed the $600 or so I just spent on PP still to GW games. But at this point, I'm ready to move on to other systems where (hopefully) things will not be as aggressive, for my current and future purchases. It could turn out that PP is just as bad or worse... but then there are still many more options for me to explore!

I'll still gladly use the army I've built up for GW, and maybe make things for a few of their specialist games (which feel more like other systems, being a bit more relaxed) but at this point I'm not planning to do any more armies for their systems.

We'll see how long they can hold on for...

RiTides wrote:

AgeOfEgos wrote:The thing is....we are fast approaching a critical point where people will find they don't need GW. Independent sculptors/casting companies are becoming more and more common. Just think of when you started wargaming-----or maybe just flashback 5 years. Now compare the range of models (and quality) to what there is now...it's a tremendous change.

Agreed... being aggressive about IP can keep people from infringing, but eventually people realize that there is a large world of quality miniatures and game systems beyond that bubble... personally, if they were not as aggressive about it, I might have directed the $600 or so I just spent on PP still to GW games. But at this point, I'm ready to move on to other systems where (hopefully) things will not be as aggressive, for my current and future purchases. It could turn out that PP is just as bad or worse... but then there are still many more options for me to explore!

I'll still gladly use the army I've built up for GW, and maybe make things for a few of their specialist games (which feel more like other systems, being a bit more relaxed) but at this point I'm not planning to do any more armies for their systems.

We'll see how long they can hold on for...

Right on and as someone who has 'a lot' of 3rd party items throughout his 40k collection...I not only understand where you're coming from but feel it in my gut as well .

On the subject of IP infringement, copyright, etc. it reminds me of an article I read the other day by Gary Larson (Yeah the Far Side guy). I've long wondered why it was so easy to find Far Side comics online and why his publishers weren't more aggressive in take downs. Well, it's coming!

http://www.creators.com/a-note-from-gary-larson.html

However, once I read his letter I wondered to myself; Has the internet done away with true "IP"? For example, if a Larson started today...given the digital availability we have...I don't know if he would be successful. He was likely quite lucky to have started his comic when he did...else he would be just another website with funny comics (and no available sales in paper). Kind of a ramble but kind of on subject....makes you wonder what the internet and technology is going to do with true IP companies...

Standard Caveat: I'm a lawyer, but I'm not the lawyer for anybody here. Any specific questions should be addressed to an attorney in your jurisdiction.

MikeMcSomething wrote:Has the CH guy even hired a lawyer?

And do the lawyers in the thread think this will even get to a trial?

If he doesn't have tons of cash just laying around to put up until he (hopefully) wins isn't he completely at GW's whim anyway?

95% of all civil suits are settled or dismissed before trial. I doubt this is one of the 5%.

The one thing to remember about legal fees at this point is that legal unemployment is actually above the national average. You can hire a recently licensed lawyer for dirt cheap these days, as they're just happy for some work.

Mr. Burning wrote:

Still wondering if it's illegal to claim you own the rights to something in a court filing if you don't.

If its in a court filing and it hits court I think that its perjury?

Could also be contempt?

And general stupidity!

If the rights are disputed then, its a whole new ball game and lawyers get some more more dollar!

Perjury is knowingly lying under oath. Stating a colorable claim (basically as long as it's not a complete fabrication) isn't lying.

brettz123 wrote:

Chapterhouse wrote:Yeah, but I also have heard of "Stand up for what you believe in".

As long as it wont hurt you in court Stating the basic facts that is out there for anyone to see, I dont think that will hurt me.

I'm not a lawyer but I would suggest just staying out of any threads that are about the lawsuit. It really can't help you and might hurt you.

CH isn't just worried about the law suit, it is also a business. Gaining goodwill, and hopefully customers, might be worth it to him to post here.

brettz123 wrote:Question for the lawyers out there. If you are making an add on to an item and the company who produces the original owns the IP to the look and feel of the item are you by the very nature of what you are doing infringing on their IP? Is that a difference between this and car add ons? Obviously I know nothing of the law but I was just wondering.

That is, fundamentally, one of the central issues of this law suit. Where CH differs from most similar precedent is that nothing CH makes looks exactly like anything that GW makes. It's made in the same "style," but how far that extends is a very unresolved area.

brettz123 wrote:

Chapterhouse wrote:Yeah, but I also have heard of "Stand up for what you believe in".

As long as it wont hurt you in court Stating the basic facts that is out there for anyone to see, I dont think that will hurt me.

I'm not a lawyer but I would suggest just staying out of any threads that are about the lawsuit. It really can't help you and might hurt you.

Question for the lawyers out there. If you are making an add on to an item and the company who produces the original owns the IP to the look and feel of the item are you by the very nature of what you are doing infringing on their IP? Is that a difference between this and car add ons? Obviously I know nothing of the law but I was just wondering.

Agreed. Especially since many of the threads on Dakka show clear intent to create models explicitly for GW games and to fit the GW art, designs and even show your process of 3D scanning and rendering and printing parts of GW models for blanks and add-on pieces like your Chimera Hull and Rhino add ons. By posting everything you do and your method of thinking online you have basically invited GW in to see what you do and the courts too. Some may think making a generic armor piece that happens to fit a Rhino is ok. When you see that you basically made a 3D scan of a GW copyrighted product and used that copyrighted design to print out 3D printed blanks and parts, well you may be officially derivative works. GW may never have known you did this process, except you told them by posting it all online.

I would probably refrain from bragging on the forums about your truthiness until your issues are resolved because public opinion on Dakka won't save you and all your past posts on Dakka can only serve to hurt you. Best thing you can do is let your lawyers hash it out and step back from the online communities.

nkelsch wrote:

brettz123 wrote:

Chapterhouse wrote:Yeah, but I also have heard of "Stand up for what you believe in".

As long as it wont hurt you in court Stating the basic facts that is out there for anyone to see, I dont think that will hurt me.

I'm not a lawyer but I would suggest just staying out of any threads that are about the lawsuit. It really can't help you and might hurt you.

Question for the lawyers out there. If you are making an add on to an item and the company who produces the original owns the IP to the look and feel of the item are you by the very nature of what you are doing infringing on their IP? Is that a difference between this and car add ons? Obviously I know nothing of the law but I was just wondering.

Agreed. Especially since many of the threads on Dakka show clear intent to create models explicitly for GW games and to fit the GW art, designs and even show your process of 3D scanning and rendering and printing parts of GW models for blanks and add-on pieces like your Chimera Hull and Rhino add ons. By posting everything you do and your method of thinking online you have basically invited GW in to see what you do and the courts too. Some may think making a generic armor piece that happens to fit a Rhino is ok. When you see that you basically made a 3D scan of a GW copyrighted product and used that copyrighted design to print out 3D printed blanks and parts, well you may be officially derivative works. GW may never have known you did this process, except you told them by posting it all online.

I would probably refrain from bragging on the forums about your truthiness until your issues are resolved because public opinion on Dakka won't save you and all your past posts on Dakka can only serve to hurt you. Best thing you can do is let your lawyers hash it out and step back from the online communities.

Or in other words, you are your own worst enemy right now.

nkelsch wrote:I would probably refrain from bragging on the forums about your truthiness until your issues are resolved because public opinion on Dakka won't save you and all your past posts on Dakka can only serve to hurt you. Best thing you can do is let your lawyers hash it out and step back from the online communities.

You probably also wouldn't have gone about business the way Chapterhouse has... I believe the point of what he was saying, is that he's going to stick to his guns. He believes he has a right to do what he's doing, many of us appreciate it, and it will be up to the courts (or lawyers) to have it decided one way or the other (or more likely, somewhere in the middle).

It could also be settlement posturing. Showing that you're not afraid of litigation might make GW settle more favorably, as they have to be worried about what a loss could do for them.

RiTides wrote:

nkelsch wrote:I would probably refrain from bragging on the forums about your truthiness until your issues are resolved because public opinion on Dakka won't save you and all your past posts on Dakka can only serve to hurt you. Best thing you can do is let your lawyers hash it out and step back from the online communities.

You probably also wouldn't have gone about business the way Chapterhouse has... I believe the point of what he was saying, is that he's going to stick to his guns. He believes he has a right to do what he's doing, many of us appreciate it, and it will be up to the courts (or lawyers) to have it decided one way or the other (or more likely, somewhere in the middle).

He has the right to run his buisness anyway he wishes I suppose. I am glad the people who make 3rd party parts for Orcs seem to be a little wiser and a little less brazen about thier processes... A WW2 orc for a generic fantasy use is signifigantly different than selling something as a "Deff Korps of Krieg(tm)" Warhammer 40k(tm) Ork(tm) for Games Workshop(tm) games.

AgeOfEgos wrote:The thing is....we are fast approaching a critical point where people will find they don't need GW. Independent sculptors/casting companies are becoming more and more common. Just think of when you started wargaming-----or maybe just flashback 5 years. Now compare the range of models (and quality) to what there is now...it's a tremendous change.

Fast approaching? Seriously? You're comparing a company like GW that rakes in $50 million a year to some garage kit company that is lucky to do $10K in the same span. GW isn't going anywhere anytime soon. A lot of the stuff you mention like 3d printers and all of that are just starting to come to the fore.

If by fast approaching you mean 10 years from now, then maybe I'd agree with you. You won't see a dramatic shift with this until you can go to miniature company's website, download 3d files, and print the figs on your own 3d printer. That isn't happening anytime soon...

I placed an order with CH nearly a month ago but have not received it. Does anyone think this lawsuit might be the cause of the tardiness? Should I contact them, or is shipping normally a little slow with these guys?

You ought to email them.

Email is our friend. Everyone can attest to this, I reply to emails usually within 6 hours or less (unless im asleep at night).

Chances are your parts are resin, and some have a 4 week delay (as noted on the product page).

In any case email me.

jp400 wrote:Now they have a Donate button.....

Seriously, anyone who donates is (in my opinion) an idiot. You might as well just take the amount you are willing to donate and set it on fire for all the good its going to do.

$20 says this never goes to court and they run with the money.

+1
I am behind GW on this one

Big Tim wrote:I placed an order with CH nearly a month ago but have not received it. Does anyone think this lawsuit might be the cause of the tardiness? Should I contact them, or is shipping normally a little slow with these guys?

Sad to say fairly normal for CH. To his credit though he has finally put down on his site usually ships in 14 days. Interesting when I think my longest record to ship something was 3 days hrmm.

Empchild wrote:

Big Tim wrote:I placed an order with CH nearly a month ago but have not received it. Does anyone think this lawsuit might be the cause of the tardiness? Should I contact them, or is shipping normally a little slow with these guys?

Sad to say fairly normal for CH. To his credit though he has finally put down on his site usually ships in 14 days. Interesting when I think my longest record to ship something was 3 days hrmm.

Seriously?! We are more then upfront about the time for production and everybody can attest that we answer emails with nay concerns about an order daily.

We ship out once a week (as noted on the site, barring holidays). Yes some products have delay to the huge demand of those products and the production methods.

To be fair, do you make anything in resin, do you know about the time and labor involved in casting resin? We are more then upfront about the time for production and everybody can attest that we answer emails with nay concerns about an order daily.

Way to try to kick someone when they are down.

I`m in a different country, and got my order in just over 2 weeks during the peak holiday time.

If Chapterhouse stays in buisness, when they have product I want... I will continue to do business with them.

I just put in my first order today. Nothing like the possibility of not being able to order the stuff anymore to motivate me to get the bitz sooner than I otherwise would have.

People keep claiming that CH claimed to have spoken to a lawyer and cleared all of this stuff up ages ago, but
every lawyer in this thread (including at least one intimately familiar with the field this involves) has basically said "Nobody has argued this specific area of the law yet so we can't make any real predictions or point to any specific precedent so it will be interesting to see how this turns out, if it turns out at all" - doesn't that seem a little weird?

People aren't claiming the CH did. They are repeating what CH has said in previous threads regarding this very thing happening. Just thought I'd clear that up for you in case it mattered

I think this pic sums up nicely what is about to happen to Chapterhouse:

Aduro wrote:I just put in my first order today. Nothing like the possibility of not being able to order the stuff anymore to motivate me to get the bitz sooner than I otherwise would have.

I was wondering if this would happen! Maybe it will give them a boost to current business, which can help cover legal costs and also give them reason to continue to fight (their products being in high demand). Obviously, I'm hoping they're not forced to close, even if they need to advertise differently, but this is encouraging.

CT GAMER wrote:I think this pic sums up nicely what is about to happen to Chapterhouse:

They're going to build an army of the downtrodden to rise up and overthrow their oppressors?

Aduro wrote:

CT GAMER wrote:I think this pic sums up nicely what is about to happen to Chapterhouse:

They're going to build an army of the downtrodden to rise up and overthrow their oppressors?

Something like that...

Get your hands off me, you damn ape!

filbert wrote:Get your hands off me, you damn ape!

How can you misquote one of the best and most recognizable movie quotes ever! It's damn dirty ape! DAMN DIRTY APE!

Aduro wrote:

filbert wrote:Get your hands off me, you damn ape!

How can you misquote one of the best and most recognizable movie quotes ever! It's damn dirty ape! DAMN DIRTY APE!

Gah! Blame it on the Jack Daniels!

LOL, didnt that certain monkey end up locked up in a small room after almost shooting himself in the head with a laser gun?