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Holy_doctrine wrote:Frighteningly enough, these changes make me WANT to play the necrons.

Talk to me in september. I very seriously may have a necron army to sell if this pans out as true. All of this just sounds like they got beaten with the nerf hammer just so they can sell some transports to keep our new flimsy warriors from being eaten alive by heavy bolters and psi-ammo.

you mean they don't get eaten alive right now? hmm that's weird I thought they were.

It looks like tau are going to be even mor stuffed than before. Another army that can out shoot them. yes!

H.B.M.C. wrote:Problem 1: Necron players already own a lot of Warriors.
Problem 2: The Necron Warrior box will not be recut as the return on investment would not be very high, so making the mould isn't worth it, so GW can't entice existing players with a new Warrior model.

Solution 1: Make Necron Warriors cheaper and weaker so you need more of them. Existing Necron players will need to buy more.
Solution 2: Make Scarabs even better than they are now. You can only get them in Warrior boxes, so existing Necron players will want to buy more.

Good to see GW once again starting (and ending) with how they can sell more models rather than making a better game...

I hear that..

LEGION3000 wrote:

Holy_doctrine wrote:Frighteningly enough, these changes make me WANT to play the necrons.

Talk to me in september. I very seriously may have a necron army to sell if this pans out as true. All of this just sounds like they got beaten with the nerf hammer just so they can sell some transports to keep our new flimsy warriors from being eaten alive by heavy bolters and psi-ammo.

I'll take you up on that. And while they are worse per model I think they got better for the points. I would be willing to give up 6 points to get a 4+ save and 5+ wbb (that seems to have a built in res orb)

H.B.M.C. wrote:Problem 1: Necron players already own a lot of Warriors.
Problem 2: The Necron Warrior box will not be recut as the return on investment would not be very high, so making the mould isn't worth it, so GW can't entice existing players with a new Warrior model.

Solution 1: Make Necron Warriors cheaper and weaker so you need more of them. Existing Necron players will need to buy more.
Solution 2: Make Scarabs even better than they are now. You can only get them in Warrior boxes, so existing Necron players will want to buy more.

Good to see GW once again starting (and ending) with how they can sell more models rather than making a better game...

Meh, I'm perfectly fine with this as I've got 60 warriors and 20 scarabs as it stands now. From the sound of it, that will be plenty. New sculpts don't do much for me as I like the current ones. My problem is if warriors end up almost as useless as they are now. Being cheaper, more mobile through transports or whatever means, and able to function (to some degree) unsupported will help quite a bit in getting them out of useless status. Being a delivery system for some nasty model like the Crypteks are looking to be will help even more. I don't like the transition to being as weak or weaker than marines, but whatever. I can live with that if it means I'm enticed to actually field them with a purpose other than simply being required to.


Edit: Although I do agree with what you are saying on other models, the biggest example being Destroyers.

So immortals will now come in a box of 10 for $33?

If they keep the same price $15 per, I'm calling BS.

It will be just like when they couldn't sell daemon models until: Codex: Super Daemons came out.

I also don't understand sweeping robots. I've played Necrons for a long time, and was miffed about having to actually take leadership tests last go round.

I will reserve overall judgement for when we actually get to see the codex, so I'll throw my color as curiously pessimistic.

H.B.M.C. wrote:Problem 1: Necron players already own a lot of Warriors.
Problem 2: The Necron Warrior box will not be recut as the return on investment would not be very high, so making the mould isn't worth it, so GW can't entice existing players with a new Warrior model.

Solution 1: Make Necron Warriors cheaper and weaker so you need more of them. Existing Necron players will need to buy more.
Solution 2: Make Scarabs even better than they are now. You can only get them in Warrior boxes, so existing Necron players will want to buy more.

Good to see GW once again starting (and ending) with how they can sell more models rather than making a better game...

Or perhaps they finally decided to make good on the basic concept of zombie undead robots in the way they always should have been?

Perhaps sometimes needing more models can actually result in a better game?

Or maybe even Necron players can use the existing they models they have and since they cost less points now, they'll have room in the army to field some of the (desperately needed) new variety of units?

But that requires players to buy more models and anything that does that is bad for the game by definition of course (and yes, that was sarcasm).




Automatically Appended Next Post:

Uriels_Flame wrote:
I also don't understand sweeping robots. I've played Necrons for a long time, and was miffed about having to actually take leadership tests last go round.

The unit phases out when they realize they're getting their butt handed to them in CC? Robots of all creatures should be able to process when its time to get the heck out of dodge, and the fluff behind them being to teleport out of battle when needed gives them the excuse to disappear off a battlefield when they get swept.

To every one complaing that warriors arent as elite as they used to be model for model. Why dont you just use immortals they are better then warriors are now and cost less.

People need to quit bitching wait for the codex to come out play a test game and see for yourself how the new necrons work instead of seeing rumors and automatically saying they got nerfed.

yakface wrote:

H.B.M.C. wrote:Problem 1: Necron players already own a lot of Warriors.
Problem 2: The Necron Warrior box will not be recut as the return on investment would not be very high, so making the mould isn't worth it, so GW can't entice existing players with a new Warrior model.

Solution 1: Make Necron Warriors cheaper and weaker so you need more of them. Existing Necron players will need to buy more.
Solution 2: Make Scarabs even better than they are now. You can only get them in Warrior boxes, so existing Necron players will want to buy more.

Good to see GW once again starting (and ending) with how they can sell more models rather than making a better game...

Or perhaps they finally decided to make good on the basic concept of zombie undead robots in the way they always should have been?

Perhaps sometimes needing more models can actually result in a better game?

Or maybe even Necron players can use the existing they models they have and since they cost less points now, they'll have room in the army to field some of the (desperately needed) new variety of units?

But that requires players to buy more models and anything that does that is bad for the game by definition of course.

Agree to a point. In the case of warriors, the change (from the sound of it) does make for a better game and is pretty welcome. The changes to destroyers sound like a nerf, the only purpose I can see being to sell the new jetbike models. On scarabs, the trade from jetbike movement to beast/cavalry movement is a nerf in my eyes as well (although balanced by access to the new WBB rule)...also there is no mention of the existance/removal/change of disruption fields, which if the fields are gone, they take a major hit as well.

Again...just have to see the dex to really be able to make a fair judgement.

Maelstrom808 wrote:

yakface wrote:

H.B.M.C. wrote:Problem 1: Necron players already own a lot of Warriors.
Problem 2: The Necron Warrior box will not be recut as the return on investment would not be very high, so making the mould isn't worth it, so GW can't entice existing players with a new Warrior model.

Solution 1: Make Necron Warriors cheaper and weaker so you need more of them. Existing Necron players will need to buy more.
Solution 2: Make Scarabs even better than they are now. You can only get them in Warrior boxes, so existing Necron players will want to buy more.

Good to see GW once again starting (and ending) with how they can sell more models rather than making a better game...

Or perhaps they finally decided to make good on the basic concept of zombie undead robots in the way they always should have been?

Perhaps sometimes needing more models can actually result in a better game?

Or maybe even Necron players can use the existing they models they have and since they cost less points now, they'll have room in the army to field some of the (desperately needed) new variety of units?

But that requires players to buy more models and anything that does that is bad for the game by definition of course.

Agree to a point. In the case of warriors, the change (from the sound of it) does make for a better game and is pretty welcome. The changes to destroyers sound like a nerf, the only purpose I can see being to sell the new jetbike models. On scarabs, the trade from jetbike movement to beast/cavalry movement is a nerf in my eyes as well...also there is no mention of the existance/removal/change of disruption fields, which if the fields are gone, they take a major hit as well.

Again...just have to see the dex to really be able to make a fair judgement.

I definitely agree with Yaks post. I'm not too sure about the changes to Destroyers either...

Personally, I've never been able to envisage destroyers or scarabs moving to the speeds that Jetbike (read: turboboost) suggests they do. So long as the Destroyers weapon is an Assault Weapon, then they should be fine IMHO. I don't think scarabs have lost too much, if anything, from beasts. As I said however, this is partially because I can't imagine Necrons moving at such [turbo boost] speeds...
If destroyers are (assault weapon) jump infantry, then this would help differentiate them from the new jetbike unit. I think with destroyers it all really depends on how their gun's changed...

I think scarabs got the biggest boost of all. A squad of 5 scarabs could potentially destroy a vehicle that didn't move the previous turn... in one assault.

Farmer wrote:People need to quit bitching wait for the codex to come out play a test game and see for yourself how the new necrons work instead of seeing rumors and automatically saying they got nerfed.

Not bitching about the nerfs: The point about what $$$ are going to be in relation to point costs/game effectiveness is the complaint I have.

Especially if the changes to Warriors/Immortals is true.

That puts them on par for Scout/Marine = which I feel should translate to price changes as well.

Immortals are $15 EACH! right now.

Uriels_Flame wrote:Immortals are $15 EACH! right now.

FWIW multiple sources state that the Immortals are getting a re-release (plastic) and are in the 1st wave...

ashikenshin wrote:I think scarabs got the biggest boost of all. A squad of 5 scarabs could potentially destroy a vehicle that didn't move the previous turn... in one assault.

Actually, just reread the scarabs rumor and apparently I missed the vehicle thing...nevermind what I said about disruption fields I still dislike the movement change. Until you get in charge range, you are still plodding along at 6" + d6" a turn. Though it will be nice though to see a swarm model in the game that people actually might fear.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
What are people's thoughts on using old and new Immortals? I have a unit of ten now and would probably add another unit of 10 new ones. how much of a fit would people throw over having both on the board when they will (probably) have two different base sizes?

Scarey Nerd wrote:

necr0n wrote:With the cryptek holdin a VoD and a res orb and ten 17-point immortals with assault weaps..... t4 s3+ 4+++++ and teleporting every movement phase? AND THEY ARE TROOPS? why you pplz complaining? necrons are not gonna be horde. I'm pretty sure every1 is gonna play with the new AWSOME units and forget about the old warriors ... AWSOME rumorz bring us moar please?

I might be projecting my own worry here, but I think people are saddened by the idea that Warriors - one of the only unchanged sculpts reportedly - aren't even gonna be useful, meaning that an entire army needs to be bought, rather than updating some models.

Aren't useful? Kinda like how neophytes aren't useful in BT armies?

Of COURSE warriors will be useful. They're cheaper and almost as resilient so you can field more of them as a meat shield for your tougher guys. Or just transport em and have them shoot the crap out of everything from the open top vehicles.

Maelstrom808 wrote:

ashikenshin wrote:I think scarabs got the biggest boost of all. A squad of 5 scarabs could potentially destroy a vehicle that didn't move the previous turn... in one assault.

Actually, just reread the scarabs rumor and apparently I missed the vehicle thing...nevermind what I said about disruption fields I still dislike the movement change. Until you get in charge range, you are still plodding along at 6" + d6" a turn. Though it will be nice though to see a swarm model in the game that people actually might fear.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
What are people's thoughts on using old and new Immortals? I have a unit of ten now and would probably add another unit of 10 new ones. how much of a fit would people throw over having both on the board when they will (probably) have two different base sizes?

I would say it would depend on the individual person. That's understandable right after release, but I think after a prolonged amount of time, it's either time to rebase them, or get some new models.

Sasori wrote:

Maelstrom808 wrote:

ashikenshin wrote:I think scarabs got the biggest boost of all. A squad of 5 scarabs could potentially destroy a vehicle that didn't move the previous turn... in one assault.

Actually, just reread the scarabs rumor and apparently I missed the vehicle thing...nevermind what I said about disruption fields I still dislike the movement change. Until you get in charge range, you are still plodding along at 6" + d6" a turn. Though it will be nice though to see a swarm model in the game that people actually might fear.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
What are people's thoughts on using old and new Immortals? I have a unit of ten now and would probably add another unit of 10 new ones. how much of a fit would people throw over having both on the board when they will (probably) have two different base sizes?

I would say it would depend on the individual person. That's understandable right after release, but I think after a prolonged amount of time, it's either time to rebase them, or get some new models.

I wouldn't have a problem rebasing them, I'm just concerned about some beardy player trying to call them out as illegal since they wouldn't be on the bases they came with. Have to see what the new ones look like, but I really like my current ones.

Good thing I haven't painted my immortals, I will wait till the new models come out and maybe put the extra bits on them

Thanks Yakface for the rumors. If they're even somewhat true, I'm going to be one happy robot overlord. Really looking forward to dusting off my 2nd ed Crons and putting the smackdown on my oponents.

Maelstrom808 wrote:I have a unit of ten now and would probably add another unit of 10 new ones. how much of a fit would people throw over having both on the board when they will (probably) have two different base sizes?

I have 10 of the old 2nd edition Immortals and, depending on how cool the new Immortals look, will either be rebasing them or using them for other things in the Codex.

Maelstrom808 wrote:

Sasori wrote:

Maelstrom808 wrote:

ashikenshin wrote:I think scarabs got the biggest boost of all. A squad of 5 scarabs could potentially destroy a vehicle that didn't move the previous turn... in one assault.

Actually, just reread the scarabs rumor and apparently I missed the vehicle thing...nevermind what I said about disruption fields I still dislike the movement change. Until you get in charge range, you are still plodding along at 6" + d6" a turn. Though it will be nice though to see a swarm model in the game that people actually might fear.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
What are people's thoughts on using old and new Immortals? I have a unit of ten now and would probably add another unit of 10 new ones. how much of a fit would people throw over having both on the board when they will (probably) have two different base sizes?

I would say it would depend on the individual person. That's understandable right after release, but I think after a prolonged amount of time, it's either time to rebase them, or get some new models.

I wouldn't have a problem rebasing them, I'm just concerned about some beardy player trying to call them out as illegal since they wouldn't be on the bases they came with. Have to see what the new ones look like, but I really like my current ones.

Well, I wouldn't call the player beardy since technically it is against the rules, and will really depend on the player. I'd say it'd be a no no for any tournaments as well. You know your local gaming scene better than anyone, and should know the people you could test with.

AgeOfEgos wrote:Provided the rumors are correct and I understand them;

With any cover saves---Necrons are more durable than Vanilla Marines
Without cover saves---Necrons are less durable only against AP4 Weaponry----AP 1,2 and 3 the Necrons are more durable
In hand to hand, Necrons are more durable than Vanilla Marines (Not taking ATSKNF into account)

With Cover saves - Necrons will be just as durable as marines against ap4 or worse, and more durable against ap3 or better
Without cover saves, Necrons will be just as durable as marines against ap5 or worse weaponry, less durable against ap4, and more durable against ap3 or better
In hand to hand - necrons will be as durable as vanilla marines, not taking SA/ATSKNF into account, but only after the WBB, provided there are no incoming power weapon, rending, or MC attacks, with those, Necrons will be more durable, provided they dont get swept.

However -
With cover saves, necrons will be less durable than they are currently
Without cover saves, necrons will be less durable than they are now
In hand to hand - necrons will be less durable than they are now, not taking power weapons and such into account.

tiekwando wrote:Except for grey knights, who will love our 4+ save models (psyfilmen, psycannons...)

On the note of GK, I'm a bit concerned with the VoD, if it's deepstrike, warp quake is going to be a serious pain in the neck. Seriously hoping it's more like GK's personal teleporters (but usable every round) and less like VoD currently with the deepstrike rule, particularly if your not going to be able to leave combat with it. Take it from a Tzeentch Daemon player, even with ranged weapons, deepstriking is dangerous.

On the scarabs becoming beasts as opposed to swarms, well that does 2 things. 1) It keeps them from getting to opposing vehicles quickly. Letting IG shoot at you longer, or letting the Valks get away. 2) No more 2+ cover save as you move across the table for being a turbo-boosting swarm. I think someone decided that it'd be bad form for your swarms to shrug off demolisher rounds.

Edit: misread.

ashikenshin wrote:I think scarabs got the biggest boost of all. A squad of 5 scarabs could potentially destroy a vehicle that didn't move the previous turn... in one assault.

If they still have 3 attacks.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Maelstrom808 wrote:

ashikenshin wrote:I think scarabs got the biggest boost of all. A squad of 5 scarabs could potentially destroy a vehicle that didn't move the previous turn... in one assault.

Actually, just reread the scarabs rumor and apparently I missed the vehicle thing...nevermind what I said about disruption fields I still dislike the movement change. Until you get in charge range, you are still plodding along at 6" + d6" a turn. Though it will be nice though to see a swarm model in the game that people actually might fear.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
What are people's thoughts on using old and new Immortals? I have a unit of ten now and would probably add another unit of 10 new ones. how much of a fit would people throw over having both on the board when they will (probably) have two different base sizes?

Not to mention that they get WBB as well now. Also remembering that you can't think they're exactly the same as they are now with just some additions. I'm sure they're getting a stats change and other stuff too.

dancingcricket wrote:
However -
With cover saves, necrons will be less durable than they are currently
Without cover saves, necrons will be less durable than they are now
In hand to hand - necrons will be less durable than they are now, not taking power weapons and such into account.

Well then, good thing they'll be significantly cheaper than they are now.

dancingcricket wrote:Going to have to disagree on this sounding like improvements. 3+ save to 4+, 16.6% more casualties from successful wounds

A couple of people are after mentioning this, and that's not really how maths works. 16.6% is the chance of rolling a specific number on a d6, and specific numbers are immaterial to saving throws (other than I guess a 1 for an 2+ unit). Assuming a weapon that actually allows a saving throw (so not Ap4 or better), successful wounds will result in 50% more casualties for 4+ necrons compared to 3+ necrons because there are half again as many results on a saving throw roll that are fatal.

Simple demonstration: a unit of 12 new necron warriors suffers 12 successful wounds and rolls a bizarrely average array of saving throws: 1,1,2,2,3,3,4,4,5,5,6,6. The result is that 6 die, whereas with a 3+ save only 4 would have been scrapped.

I think it's very tough evaluating these rumours because a huge part of the 40k appeal is that the rules and story go hand in hand. Rules are easier to objectively spoil, but doing so without the story creates a skewed reflection. The simple truth is that the new Codex isn't just a set of rules to make an existing army work better with the current edition, it's also the primary source of the most current lore for the entire society it represents, and may be an evolution or a revolution of the current status quo, so I think judging how accurately the new rules represent Necrons is a fruitless task. The new Codex will reveal to us what the most contemporary generation of Necrons have come to be, and saying that the new rules spoil the race is a bit like saying that Henry Charles Albert Windsor is an inaccurate representation of King George II.

Overall to me the rumours are interesting because it sounds like the army is getting more of a personal identity more firmly supported by a rules set rather than being Marines' robotic alter-egos.

And it appears Immortals will be getting the 'Plastic Stealth Suit' treatment - ie. they're already popular, but to further increase sales they'll make a completely new kit for them that doesn't match the old one, probably with new options that, again, won't be at all compatable with the old model. And they'll put 'em in a box of 5 and charge as much as a Tac Squad for 'em.

And it's a perfect sell. Make 'em Troops, make Warriors weaker, everyone goes to buy the stronger troops.

Selling Models > Better Game @ GW!

H.B.M.C. wrote:And it appears Immortals will be getting the 'Plastic Stealth Suit' treatment - ie. they're already popular, but to further increase sales they'll make a completely new kit for them that doesn't match the old one, probably with new options that, again, won't be at all compatable with the old model. And they'll put 'em in a box of 5 and charge as much as a Tac Squad for 'em.

And it's a perfect sell. Make 'em Troops, make Warriors weaker, everyone goes to buy the stronger troops.

Selling Models > Better Game @ GW!

If by "popular" you mean "no one really plays the army at all" then yes, they're popular. Hugely popular.

I look forward to the teeming masses of army hoppers spending their money on Knee-Korns and then selling them off within weeks because the army is either sub-par or MNightWarded to the point that no one will play them.

H.B.M.C. wrote:And it appears Immortals will be getting the 'Plastic Stealth Suit' treatment - ie. they're already popular, but to further increase sales they'll make a completely new kit for them that doesn't match the old one, probably with new options that, again, won't be at all compatable with the old model. And they'll put 'em in a box of 5 and charge as much as a Tac Squad for 'em.

And it's a perfect sell. Make 'em Troops, make Warriors weaker, everyone goes to buy the stronger troops.

Selling Models > Better Game @ GW!

Yep, those 15$ models are selling gangbuster. Hell, I own a hundred of them and so does every Necron player.
This fact brought to you by H.B.M.C.!