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Over on Bell of Lost Souls they posted additional rumors, I am in agreement with most of you, if they are goin to completely redo the game system they should release with compatible codex's. By shoehorning them in it confuses everyone.

puma713 wrote:So, with all these rumors, we can expect a War-and-Peace sized rulebook? It'll come with a calculator, a compass (to help divine your unit's movement), a tablet computer to help you keep up with all the new rules, and a calendar, so you can plan out the weeks it'll take to play a single game. Tournaments with 3 games in 7 hours? Ha! Now tournaments with 3 games will be 7 days! Take that Warmachine/Flames of War!

I really do not understand where all this angst is coming from about 6th Ed. 40K is and has always been a super simple game. getting rid of some of the garbage in the rules and bringing them closer to modern rules sets in their mechanics is nothing but good.

Right now 40K is full of gamers who's experience is limited to card games, Warmachine and "Maybe" Flames. All GW is doing is making the game less of a game about the use of rules to play and win to a game where the rules will come closer to facilitating tactical play.

The end result is not longer more difficult games. It is better gamers playing a better game. One decided by the skill of the gamers battlefield tactics vs their skillful exploitation of the rules. Maybe if we are really lucky all the Kard_Kiddies will get out of the game and leave it to the grown ups.

Average Game Length = 8 - 24 hours with theese rules.

You should technically be being paid minimum wage to play this as it would feel more like work than a fun game.

Faaaaaaaar to complex but thanks for confiming theyre fake by posting these wishes.

According to the rumored release schedule, we'll have a couple of codices to look forward to before the rule change which will no doubt either lend credence to or help to dismiss this font of unusual information.

For starters, I think these shadowy interpretations of simplified explanations of potential rules are intriguing; and while they seem to denote a bias towards cc and away from 'camping', they also paint a picture of a game that is more exciting, varied, and interesting.

I love the idea of modular missions with a focus on strategy over luck. If nothing else, I welcome the change from the standard array of mission types and deployments.

I love the idea of multiple rulesets for different levels of intricacy in games.

As a tau player, I'm terrified that if the new codex doesn't include a significant CC boost; then all of my models are even less likely to see the gaming board; but as a GK player, I'm thrilled that I don't have to be so concerned with the short range and limited mobility of my favorite units.

Yeah, Wound allocation closes a loophole, so what, play better. They're not saying that you have to equip your squads identically, they're just saying stop trying to exploit the RAW. If the squad takes 3 unsaved wounds, remove a model. it doesn't make Paladins bad. It just makes them mortal, apparently, you can still assign a melta-wound to a model that's also suffered a bolter wound; you just can't spread the bolter wounds around... that's probably why the apothecary is a 75 point upgrade instead of a 75 point additional unit (which it should be in 5th).

Yeah, there are a few things I find uncomfortable about these potential rules, but it's the stupid stuff; like tiered USRs. Seriously, errata-ing EVERY codex to represent the value of each unit's special rules? This dude gets FNP(2) while this one gets FNP (1), and I can ignore your Stealth (2) if I have acute senses (3)... That's just annoying.

Unless they include a fixed point mechanic for applying upgraded special rules, universally, to any model; then I don't think it's going to go over too well when they start power-creeping the codices like they do. Based on track record, the Tau or CSM will get ABILITY X (1) but every book that comes out afterwards will have NEGATE-ABILITY X (2).

What I'd like to see? Less guns that kill their users. More balance between CC and Shooting. Less force organization nonsense. And if they're going to Tier USRs then You should be able to spend points to a. get them and b. upgrade the ones you've got, so no army gets shafted every time a new codex comes out... but now I guess I'm wishlisting. Whatever the new rules are, we'll all play them, argue them, exploit them, bitch about them, and abuse them the second they can be downloaded from the pirate bay.

STUCARIUS wrote:

puma713 wrote:So, with all these rumors, we can expect a War-and-Peace sized rulebook? It'll come with a calculator, a compass (to help divine your unit's movement), a tablet computer to help you keep up with all the new rules, and a calendar, so you can plan out the weeks it'll take to play a single game. Tournaments with 3 games in 7 hours? Ha! Now tournaments with 3 games will be 7 days! Take that Warmachine/Flames of War!

I really do not understand where all this angst is coming from about 6th Ed. 40K is and has always been a super simple game. getting rid of some of the garbage in the rules and bringing them closer to modern rules sets in their mechanics is nothing but good.

Right now 40K is full of gamers who's experience is limited to card games, Warmachine and "Maybe" Flames. All GW is doing is making the game less of a game about the use of rules to play and win to a game where the rules will come closer to facilitating tactical play.

The end result is not longer more difficult games. It is better gamers playing a better game. One decided by the skill of the gamers battlefield tactics vs their skillful exploitation of the rules. Maybe if we are really lucky all the Kard_Kiddies will get out of the game and leave it to the grown ups.

As someone who has played more tabletop games than you can shake a stick at, and is dabbling inthe art, I can tell you (from what I have seen) its not a better game, but a clunky frankensteins monster of a ruleset. GW is not making the game more tactical or skillful, its giving the illusion of that through meta balancing, etc. Most of the proposed changes are there to try to balance out the various factions and unit types in relation to one another, make certian unit types more relevant, others less relavant, and it is a veiled acknowledgement on GW's part that special rules aren't special when almost everyone has them. The only really tactical/skill related thing I see in the proposals are the reactions, and even then its really still a buckets of dice beer and pretzel kinda game.

So how reliable is this ghost21 guy? It seems he's just saying things we want to hear. Genestealer Cults? Really?

lord_blackfang wrote:So how reliable is this ghost21 guy? It seems he's just saying things we want to hear. Genestealer Cults? Really?

It could just be that things are actually getting better-- a novel idea to some, giving the tone of these forums over the past month or so!

Shadelkan wrote:As horribly off topic as this subject is... I beg to differ that there's anything wrong at all. If you find EVE boring, that's totally subjective, and not really something wrong with it; you just don't like the style. Otherwise, as someone who enjoys the style of game EVE offers, I haven't noticed much wrong with it. In fact, I wish GW were as good as CCP is, in terms of... EVERYTHING!

"Boring" is the very least of my complaints. I don't really feel like getting too far into it, but suffice to say, no, the style of game EVE offers does not appeal to me, and I have to wonder about the people that it does appeal to.

As for wanting GW to be like CCP, lol. For people who haven't played EVE Online, it would be like playing 40k, but massacring is always encouraged in every scenario and promoted by GW as the only way to play, and if you were tabled in a game, any game, then your dead models counted as being dead forever and would have to be replaced with new ones. Also, your opponent gets to roll a die after the battle to see how many of your models he can claim for himself. Or you can avoid a game altogether by paying your opponent a "ransom" of $XX.XX dollars...who can of course then pocket your money and force you to appease him with a game anyway if he thinks you have models that he really wants.

BTW, in case you're wondering, I did play EVE for a bit, and while I do consider myself really gak at the game, I don't hate it because I was stupid and lost everything, which is usually the first conclusion other players jump to. In fact one of the only times I ever engaged in PvP was when a corpmate and I were doing missions in low-sec (and he was trying out an experimental hull-tanking battlecruiser... ), he went ahead to the next part without me and got attacked by a guy at the last gate while I was still a few jumps out. When I came through the gate in my megathron (which I was nowhere near skilled enough to actually fly and was equipped with T1 modules) I managed to scare the guy off and we both fled before he could come back with friends. Personally I considered that a victory.

While I admit that did give me an adrenaline rush and a sense of accomplishment I've never gotten from any other game, I still wouldn't recommend EVE Online to anyone but the most "hardcore" of gamers. If you want a game that plays exactly like real life, where honesty and hard work pay very little and get you nowhere (and you're basically paying $15 a month to exist as prey for all the douchebag pirates and griefers...oh, and supply them with all their ships, weapons, and ammo of course, since none of those guys do that boring mining/manufacturing stuff), and the only real way to succeed is to lie, cheat, steal, and backstab your way to the top of a mountain of corpses, then by all means, buy EVE because that gak is right up your alley. There's no tutorial either, so...good luck, wear a helmet.


Anyway, Genestealer Cults? Now I'm calling bs on the whole thing as a fan's wishlist. Now if it is true then that's awesome, but I'm gonna need proof.

Sidstyler wrote:As for wanting GW to be like CCP, lol. For people who haven't played EVE Online, it would be like playing 40k, but massacring is always encouraged in every scenario and promoted by GW as the only way to play, and if you were tabled in a game, any game, then your dead models counted as being dead forever and would have to be replaced with new ones. Also, your opponent gets to roll a die after the battle to see how many of your models he can claim for himself. Or you can avoid a game altogether by paying your opponent a "ransom" of $XX.XX dollars...who can of course then pocket your money and force you to appease him with a game anyway if he thinks you have models that he really wants.

That's pretty much what I've heard about the game. It's a griefer's paradise.

michelj wrote:

- squad leaders more important, no more 50% rallying threshold, unit can rally as long as squad leader lives

If there is one rule i'm rooting for to be included in the new 40k this is it.
Too many times I have had a high points cost unit get just below the 50% theshold run, this is a real pain. If anything 50% (half a unit running!) is just too much 25% might be more acceptable, even if it is that there is still a squad leader so you can test to rally at -2 that would still be a vast improvement.

Some of the things in general that stick out can be a PITA for 6th.

Tokens. Right now, there are a lot of counters (or dice) being used in the game. I see many a game where dice are used to represent certain things (wounds/damage results) and these dice accidentally get picked up, moved or forgotten. It appears nearly every unit will require some type of marker, especially for movement.

Size of game. It's hard to say with all these changes how fast game play will become, but it seems a bit more detailed than 3rd, 4th or 5th. I'll be curious it points levels such as 2000 remains an accepted standard (in the U.S., I see a lot of events at this points size).

Multiwound. On the fense about the removing wounded models fix, but I am in agreement that the current multi wound shenanigans is a bit lame (Nobz, SW TWC and Paladins off the top of my head).

Strategems: this could be huge. In Apocolypse, certain stratagems can be quite game changing. Not sure how I feel about these either, but I'm sure certain ones will become quite popular (night fighting all game chosen by foot slogging assault armies really stood out).

I'm ready for change and will give 6th a try. However, the last time GW massively overhauled the game (2nd to 3rd edition), I quit for nearly 3 years.

I'm in wait and see mode. The game is in desperate need of change, however, by forcing themselves to ensure all codexes are still valid really limits what they can do for the game.

Sidstyler wrote:As for wanting GW to be like CCP, lol. For people who haven't played EVE Online, it would be like playing 40k, but massacring is always encouraged in every scenario and promoted by GW as the only way to play, and if you were tabled in a game, any game, then your dead models counted as being dead forever and would have to be replaced with new ones. Also, your opponent gets to roll a die after the battle to see how many of your models he can claim for himself. Or you can avoid a game altogether by paying your opponent a "ransom" of $XX.XX dollars...who can of course then pocket your money and force you to appease him with a game anyway if he thinks you have models that he really wants.

Cute, but full of BS.

I didn't say for WHFB / 40k / LOTR to be like EVE, I said for GW to be like CCP, a company that makes a niche market game, updating it massively at least once a year (with 4 lesser but important updates), where the developpers actually play the game, where its encouraged (see: get paid) to make third party programs, and who listens to their player base. In fact, with the latter one, they made a council of players voted by players to come up with ideas to be adopted by the company into EVE. So far, its worked amazingly, and dozens of their ideas are added in each update.

Beyond that, you just sound like a carebear, even with your low sec horror story. Based on your interpretation of EVE, I should start telling people that in WHFB/40k, players are rules lawyers, who don't accept anything but RAW, where they use lists meant to win only, and who feel they don't need to waste time on a pleb who can't even paint eyes. Oh and that it's impossible to start an army, because people can't afford the models.

Obviously that's not true for every player; it exists, sure, but it's not what you encounter all the time. And if you're smart, you can avoid it. <- This is exactly what can be said with what you said.

AlexHolker wrote:That's pretty much what I've heard about the game. It's a griefer's paradise.

If that's all you've ever heard about the game, you pretty much read one page in the middle of a 200 page book, decided that it's impossible to follow the story, therefore a bad book.

I really don't think this will seem as complicated once we get a chance to play it a few times.

lord_blackfang wrote:So how reliable is this ghost21 guy? It seems he's just saying things we want to hear. Genestealer Cults? Really?

Perhaps Games Workshop is just doing due diligence in the marketing research department by releasing these purported new rules and gauging reaction. As a publicly traded company it would be a fiduciary responsibility.

I find it hard to believe that all of these "rules" are set in stone yet.

Ah yes, all the chicken little's are already crying about the sky falling.

Come on people. This happens EVERY time. Every edition change, every new book, everyone flips out before they have any real facts.

Continue to enjoy the game now and wait to see what happens. Then, gasp, try it out and make a judgement call. No need for these overly dramatic statements based on rough rumors coming from the memories of a supposed play tester.

In other words, be cool people. These are just rumors.

Reecius wrote:Ah yes, all the chicken little's are already crying about the sky falling.

Come on people. This happens EVERY time. Every edition change, every new book, everyone flips out before they have any real facts.

Continue to enjoy the game now and wait to see what happens. Then, gasp, try it out and make a judgement call. No need for these overly dramatic statements based on rough rumors coming from the memories of a supposed play tester.

In other words, be cool people. These are just rumors.

But if the 40k community isn't being reactionary children then what are they?

Brother Ramses wrote:With all the new rules along with the different levels of play, expect the starter set to have model, "cards" for ruls and stats, just like all the new game systems. Pokemon/Magic 40k 6th Edition!!

Yes, having a game be created such that reference material is widely available and easy to use is horrible and ruins the game.

Wait, didn't WH40k 2nd edition have cards and datafaxes?

Balance wrote:

Brother Ramses wrote:With all the new rules along with the different levels of play, expect the starter set to have model, "cards" for ruls and stats, just like all the new game systems. Pokemon/Magic 40k 6th Edition!!

Yes, having a game be created such that reference material is widely available and easy to use is horrible and ruins the game.

Wait, didn't WH40k 2nd edition have cards and datafaxes?

Why yes... yes it did.

Shadelkan wrote:

Sidstyler wrote:As for wanting GW to be like CCP, lol. For people who haven't played EVE Online, it would be like playing 40k, but massacring is always encouraged in every scenario and promoted by GW as the only way to play, and if you were tabled in a game, any game, then your dead models counted as being dead forever and would have to be replaced with new ones. Also, your opponent gets to roll a die after the battle to see how many of your models he can claim for himself. Or you can avoid a game altogether by paying your opponent a "ransom" of $XX.XX dollars...who can of course then pocket your money and force you to appease him with a game anyway if he thinks you have models that he really wants.

Cute, but full of BS.

I didn't say for WHFB / 40k / LOTR to be like EVE, I said for GW to be like CCP, a company that makes a niche market game, updating it massively at least once a year (with 4 lesser but important updates), where the developpers actually play the game, where its encouraged (see: get paid) to make third party programs, and who listens to their player base. In fact, with the latter one, they made a council of players voted by players to come up with ideas to be adopted by the company into EVE. So far, its worked amazingly, and dozens of their ideas are added in each update.

Beyond that, you just sound like a carebear, even with your low sec horror story. Based on your interpretation of EVE, I should start telling people that in WHFB/40k, players are rules lawyers, who don't accept anything but RAW, where they use lists meant to win only, and who feel they don't need to waste time on a pleb who can't even paint eyes. Oh and that it's impossible to start an army, because people can't afford the models.

Obviously that's not true for every player; it exists, sure, but it's not what you encounter all the time. And if you're smart, you can avoid it. <- This is exactly what can be said with what you said.

AlexHolker wrote:That's pretty much what I've heard about the game. It's a griefer's paradise.

If that's all you've ever heard about the game, you pretty much read one page in the middle of a 200 page book, decided that it's impossible to follow the story, therefore a bad book.

Sorry to keep this going off topic but I really have to say something here on EVE
Dude the game is notorious for being tough and cruel
Its merciless, because dying can set you back so badly and noobs have NO chance of learning this without research or learning the hard way.

I love PVP myself and I love that EVE is so merciless, but noones a carebear for recognising the diifculty of that game, griefers in that game have the ability to render all the work you've done pointless if your not always on guard
Hell even running a successfull coporation is akin to having a second job, even moreso than running guilds in other games, taking up contracts, having to do accounting to track funds etc
It is really a game for the hardcore in every sense of the word and noone can be blamed for backing out of it

Anyways back on topic
Reading through all that, it seems really, really overcomplicated
I mean wow, I can't imagine the charts people will need to follow this if its true

Shadelkan wrote:I didn't say for WHFB / 40k / LOTR to be like EVE, I said for GW to be like CCP, a company that makes a niche market game, updating it massively at least once a year (with 4 lesser but important updates), where the developpers actually play the game, where its encouraged (see: get paid) to make third party programs, and who listens to their player base. In fact, with the latter one, they made a council of players voted by players to come up with ideas to be adopted by the company into EVE. So far, its worked amazingly, and dozens of their ideas are added in each update.

That's what I assumed you meant, but I wanted to be funny instead so I posted my bs.

Shadelkan wrote:Beyond that, you just sound like a carebear

Oh god damn it.

Shadelkan wrote:even with your low sec horror story.

And I want to reiterate that I knew full-well the risk we were taking being there, I'm not just a bumbling idiot who stumbled in unknowingly. We checked the map beforehand too, to avoid areas where pod-killing occurred so as to further minimize the chance of being jumped on.

Shadelkan wrote:Based on your interpretation of EVE, I should start telling people that in WHFB/40k, players are rules lawyers, who don't accept anything but RAW, where they use lists meant to win only, and who feel they don't need to waste time on a pleb who can't even paint eyes. Oh and that it's impossible to start an army, because people can't afford the models.

...heh...yeah. That would be crazy...*cough*...I mean I've surely never told anyone that before to discourage them from starting the game up. Nope.



I'll never understand the "lists meant to win = bad" thing, though. It makes me think that there are actually people out there who design their armies and play every game with the intention of losing and I don't think anyone needs to explain how absurd that is, no one actively tries to lose every game and if you do you're just wasting time. I have nothing against casual play, it's all I really do in any game, but I also disagree with this notion that trying to win is bad or wrong.

Shadelkan wrote:

AlexHolker wrote:That's pretty much what I've heard about the game. It's a griefer's paradise.

If that's all you've ever heard about the game, you pretty much read one page in the middle of a 200 page book, decided that it's impossible to follow the story, therefore a bad book.

Yeah, I'll admit that EVE is a lot more complicated than that (so much more, even combat isn't as simple as pointing and clicking, there's actual math involved and it requires a lot more thinking than what's common for an MMO), but I still don't think that summation is entirely inaccurate. It's true that piracy isn't all that easy and if you don't know what you're doing you'll fail pretty hard at it, and there are ways to avoid becoming a victim in the first place, and there's also bounty-hunting on top of that (though IIRC bounty-hunting wasn't exactly profitable and your target would likely be impossible to get to anyway), so saying that there's no retribution isn't really true, but I still get the feeling at times that the game catered to that style of player and that everything else was frowned upon. I think you even helped prove it when you slapped the "carebear" label on me almost immediately, people who try to enjoy the game without being ruthless dicks to everyone around them were looked down on and given their own derogatory nickname, and I know some people will argue otherwise but nine times out of ten the word "carebear" was used in a derogatory manner on the forums so I'm treating it as such.

But yeah, the EVE stuff is off-topic so my official final thoughts on EVE are that it's just not my thing. I personally don't like the game, but that's only because it's way too demanding and "hardcore" for me. I'm super casual about gaming and I detest games that feel more like work than play. Some people love it though, they like the fact that there's a real risk and that you can actually lose everything that you invested so much time and money into acquiring (I'll admit that PvP in most games is a joke and ultimately pointless, but it's like that because they don't want people to feel like they're paying a monthly subscription fee just to exist as fodder), they like that it's so harsh and unforgiving, and I can't really fault them for that I guess. If you're going to get into it though I ask that you do some research and find out exactly what you're getting into, because it isn't just a game about space battles and pretty ships.


Anyway, I personally wouldn't mind if 40k had a little more depth so I'm not exactly turned off by the rumors...I'm actually intrigued, even though I think putting out a new edition is stupid when half the armies still haven't been updated for the current one. I've never liked this update schedule that GW has chosen for their games, it pretty much guarantees that the game will always be unbalanced purely because of all the people playing with older books.

For all the people saying this would be way too complex and take forever, I thought the exact same thing when I saw the 5th edition rules. Guess what? After a few weeks I knew most of the rules of by heart and didn't have to refer to the BRB except for special rules and unit stats. It'll take a month to get used to these rules, then you'll probably have adjusted to them. The sky is firmly above our heads.

And thank God they're fixing the under 50% thing with retreating. If you've lost a unit you should just remove it from the table, not have them run around screaming for a bit. It's irritating.
Now they just need to fix getting swept and nerf mech, and I'm a happy little nerd.

Works great for me; Truth be told, I talk well about EVE, but always end conversations with "And I don't recommend you play it."

@Asuron: What you said is all true; but that doesn't mean there's anything wrong with EVE, it just caters to a niche market. I'm sure some people think GW's products are stupid because you need to assemble and paint them before you can (officially) use them.

As for the topic on hand, I'm going to take it a step at a time; for now, its 5th ed, and until GW really makes any announcement, its going to stay 5th ed.

Shadelkan wrote:

Sidstyler wrote:Exaggerated post is an exaggeration. If the rulebook did come out with all that though I would finally consider paying $80 for it. lol

What's wrong with EVE?

Plenty. But I'm curious as well since I didn't know EVE was doing that badly.

As horribly off topic as this subject is... I beg to differ that there's anything wrong at all. If you find EVE boring, that's totally subjective, and not really something wrong with it; you just don't like the style. Otherwise, as someone who enjoys the style of game EVE offers, I haven't noticed much wrong with it. In fact, I wish GW were as good as CCP is, in terms of... EVERYTHING!

Go in game, check out the forums.

EVE's on a very fast screw the customer, and make everything MT based. When the basic prinicpals of the game are being taken away in the name of making cash, a problem you do have.

Anyone that plays EVE currently and isn't aware of these issues and much, much more for the wider base, really does live in a flower garden with rose tinted glasses.

I love EVE, it's far from boring or even perfect, but the recent looming NGE style feth up, is not good.

On Topic - With Storm of Magic bringing back some oldies and goldies as new units, monsters, I can see 40k following suit and providing lots more of the cult lists, hell even creatures like Grox, sure makes a little less sense, but it seems to be a grasp at retro as cool, and a shouting voice saying "Look we've added Cudbears, we're all VETS here, now worship Draigo and follow our creed"

WOW these rules really change things up. Whole armies are going to be entirely reformatted.

It's going to make a more complex game, but a much deeper one. I welcome these changes after three editions of merely evolving bit by bit.

lord_blackfang wrote:So how reliable is this ghost21 guy? It seems he's just saying things we want to hear. Genestealer Cults? Really?

Well, most of his predictions are on things still in the future, so we will see. But he was wrong about Sororitas not getting a WD Codex (or maybe just half wrong as BramGaunt says they get a WD Codex now AND a full Codex not that far away). That said, I have no reason currently to mistrust him. But if he is the only source, I would like to have a second source.

IVEATCH wrote:Perhaps Games Workshop is just doing due diligence in the marketing research department by releasing these purported new rules and gauging reaction. As a publicly traded company it would be a fiduciary responsibility.

GW? Marketing research? Responsibility to shareholders?

IVEATCH wrote:I find it hard to believe that all of these "rules" are set in stone yet.

Okay, I agree to that. But printing a new standard rulebook takes considerable time, so rules design should be in the end stages.

Sageheart wrote:WOW these rules really change things up. Whole armies are going to be entirely reformatted.

So no more razorback spam in 4/5 lists? Damn, I really enjoyed that. :(

I don't want to bee too mean, but are we really going to trust Blood of Kittens? I thought that he wasn't the most trustworthy source.

micahaphone wrote:I don't want to bee too mean, but are we really going to trust Blood of Kittens? I thought that he wasn't the most trustworthy source.

Firstly, it wasn't himself who posted it, it was someone who posted on the site. Secondly, always take rumors with salt. Just because people say they like these rules or don't doesn't mean they believe them. Most likely, you may see parts of this be true and parts be false.

"We"? Some of us will, some of us won't. It's not too terribly often that all of Dakka comes together in consensus on much of anything.