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 Tyran wrote:
This is my summary of FW changes:
...
[/spoiler]
Meiotic Spores:

Spoiler:

Max 6 models

Float Down (Spore Mine's deep strike) replaced Outriders of the Swarm.

Floating Death: on a 2-3 D3 mortal wounds, on a 4+ 3 mortal wounds (a 13% increase).

No extra rules compared to regular mines.. so basically useless now.. 8/

they are nerfed, but the damage is better.

you cant take as many and they dont infiltrate, so no more turn one melting, but they still are pretty nice as an area denial tool.

As they were, they caused alot of feel bad moments so they needed a change. i've litterally had about 5 opponent quit after turn one when i used them so this should stop that.

Hierodules lost all their special rules. It's not the end of the world, but given how GW has been stripping special rules off units of late, I fear for the end result with Exocrines and Tyrannofexes.

Hierodules I think lost a fair few special rules because they dropped by more than half in points. They basically stopped being lord of war mini-titans and became heavy support models. So they had to lose some power to come down, yet at the same time they now get regular tyranid traits along with the rest of the army and also appear to be generally more viable for their weapon choices and their price point.


GW has basically taken them from an exotic model that you "might" use every now and then or in apoc games and made them something you can envision taking in twos in regular games without it breaking the game nor your army costs.

Spoletta wrote:

 Tyran wrote:
They cannot really hide, 18 wounds remember.

Also wouldn't the Barbed be better at killing Primaris? I mean, 12 BS 3+ S8 AP-2 D 2 shoots a turn plus 4 melee attacks is IMHO way better output, with the downside of considerable increased cost.

If the profile has 5 less wounds, then it lands perfectly at 17 and you can hide.

See that is what you don't trust random people on the internet to not make basic math mistakes.

Sorry about that.

 Tyran wrote:
This is my summary of FW changes:

Malantrope:

Spoiler:

Only 1 model per unit, and thus lost Monstrous Brood.

Grasping tail: S +1, flat 2 damage and can re-roll wound rolls. So an improvement.

Enhanced Toxic Miasma: fixed to work in Engagement Range, deals D3 mortal wounds.

Shrouding Spores: buffed to 6", but does not protect Titanic units.

Prey Adaptation: buffed to activating on 3", but nerfed to only working within 6" and now affects wound rolls instead of hit rolls.

+1 Power and +15 points.

Meiotic Spores:

Spoiler:

Max 6 models

Float Down (Spore Mine's deep strike) replaced Outriders of the Swarm.

Floating Death: on a 2-3 D3 mortal wounds, on a 4+ 3 mortal wounds (a 13% increase).

Sky-Slasher Swarms:

Spoiler:

Gained Swooping Assault (Gargoyles' deep strike).

Dimachaeron:

Spoiler:

+4 W, -2 ld

Degradation is now M/WS/BS(instead of A) and BS it is irrelevant, as no ranged weapons. A buff as A no longer degrades.

Weapons completely reworked:

Massive scything sickle-talons: S +1, Ap -3, D D3+3 and can re-roll hit rolls. A massive improvement.

Scything tail: S user, Ap -3, D 2, one (and only one) additional attack[/list]

Leaper-killer: gained a 5+ invulnerable save and can move across enemy models (even when it charges) but it lost the free vertical movement.

Gained Death Throes, standard one (on a 6 everyone in 3" suffers D3 mortal wounds.

Thorax Spine-maw: After attacks but before consolidation, select an enemy model within Engagement range. Enemy rolls a D6 and add that model's S characteristic. If the roll is equal or less than Dimachaeron S, that model's unit suffers D6 mortal wounds.

Digestion Spine: If a model is destroyed by the Thorax Spine-maw, at the end of the turn the Dimachaeron gains a 5+ fnp until the end of the game.

+1 Power and +20 points.

Stone Crusher Carnifex:

Spoiler:

Only 1 model per unit, and thus lost Monstrous Brood.

+1 Strenght.

Seems to have a typo with base one having two bio-fails that can be upgraded to wrecker claws.

It lost any other wargear option.

Bio-fails reworked to making 2 hit rolls per attack.

Wrecker claws reworked to D 3 but becoming D 5 against Vehicles and Monsters. Two wrecker claws still can re-roll to hit, even against other targets that are not Vehicles.

Caparace Chitin Rams buffed to dealing D3 mortal wounds and D6 against Vehicles and Monsters. Also got the +1 to hit rolls if it charged.

+5 points for wrecker claws upgrade.

Barbed Hierodule

Spoiler:

Now a Heavy Support.

-4 M, +1 BS, -2 S, -4 W, -1 A, -2 Ld, +1 Sv

Degradation is now M/WS/BS.

Bio-cannons are flat D 2.

Hierodule Scythint talons: S+2, Ap -3, D D3+3, reroll hit rolls of 1 (it no longer gives an additional attack for two pairs).

Lost Agile and Titanic Monster.

Death Throes on 6 but inflicts 3 mortal wounds.

Lost Titanic keyword.

-9 Power and -185 points.

Scythed Hierodule:

Spoiler:

Mostly as above, except M and Sv are unchanged. Also M degradation more forgiving, 3" per step.

Bio-acid spray: D6 more shots, Range +10", D 1.

-9 power and -175 points.

Harridan:

Spoiler:

Gained minimum Move of 20" and +15" max move, +1 S, +1 T, +4 W, -1 Ld. Less degradation steps.

Gargantuan scything talons: S +2, Ap -3, D 6, re-roll hit rolls of 1.

Dire bio-cannons: 2 more shots, Ap improved by 1, Damage is flat 3.

Frenzied Metabolism now gives +1 to wound rolls to ranged attacks.

Gained aircraft rules (Airborne, Hover, Supersonic, Hard to Hit).

Lost Sky attack.

Death Throes: On a 6, range 2D6", D6 mortal wounds.

Gained Aircraft keyword.

-3 Power and -60 points.

Hierophant:

Spoiler:

-2" M, -2 S, -16 W, -1 LD. Degradation is now M/WS/BS and has less steps.

Bio-plasma torrent: +4" Range, is Assault, +2 S, Ap improved by 1.

Dire bio-cannons and gargantuan scything talons as above.

Laswhip pods: S5, -1 D, 10 (and only 10) additional attacks.

Frenzied Metabolism and Death Throes as Harridan above.

Gained Hypertoxic Poison Cloud: At the end of the fight phase, roll a D6 for each enemy model in Engagement Range, on a 5+ that model's unit suffers a mortal wound.

Transport is now 20 Infantry, and models with W of 2 or more take 2 spaces instead of 1.

-57 Power and -1210 points.

Thank you for the info!

Btw Dimachaeron HAS not lot its vertical movement, he now ignores EVERYTHING horizontally and vertically for every kind of move

Yes, but as I understand it the Dimachaeron no longer ignores vertical distance.

Although to be fair is a very irrelevant nerf, as vertical movement for non-Fly monsters is very limited.

So that bio acid spray wrnt up in shots, up in range, and down i damage?

Does that mean it is very good with slimer maggots?

Also, i have seen somregood kitbashes of our titanic units from a trygon and tyranofex kit.

 Niiai wrote:
So that bio acid spray wrnt up in shots, up in range, and down i damage?

Does that mean it is very good with slimer maggots?

Also, i have seen somregood kitbashes of our titanic units from a trygon and tyranofex kit.

It's no good since you're actually spending 2 CPs to only deal with 2W profiles (3W still need two times D2 and you're useless against anything T7) otherwise you're doing very few damage.
Go Barbed and don't look back

Scythed Hierodule is probably the best unit the army now. But I’d hesitate before buying up on them because they will very possibly be matched or outclassed by the codex monsters, and I think our codex is coming soon.

Barbed Hierodule is also decent. I have no idea how to value the Hierodule buts it’s probably playable at that price on paper, in practice it’s probably way too big a mode to actually move around smaller denser terrain boards for any real effective.

Having all the models painted and assembled, beside the Dima gathering dust in a box somewhere, I think I´ll test a custom fleet with:
Bestial Nature (terma 6++) and Prey Sight (+1 to hit for monsters first if charge,charged, heroic intervention).

Malanthrope
Neurothrope resonance barb
Swarmlord

6X15 Termagants
OR 30 + 10+10+10 + 30 Endless swarm

Dimachaeron
2x Lictor
5x Zoanthrope

2x Mawloc
Scythed Hierodule (Dermic Symbiosis)

12 CP
98 models
Beside Mawloc , lictors and Malanthrope, they all have Invu.

You will send forward a unit of terma for metabollic override and a Monster with the Swarmy ability, keeping quadrants and 1/2 home objective with the rest of the block. Can raisde banners or can engage, definetly will scramble with the lictors. Maybe even behind enemy lines.
T1 send forward Hierodule or Dima, same T2, T3 the Swarmy come out of hiding and play. if endless swarm is an option, you got 30 termagant coming up T4. In the mean time you hold 2 and fight for hold more. No real firepower but enough bodies to get Obsec out of someone and a big monster to kick anybody out from any objective since those beast now will all hit on 2s and for 1cp reroll to hit.

Edit: vs manticore or high volume of S8 shooting is worth to DS the dima or the Hierodule, not both vs manticore otherwise Swarmy cant survive, for the rest just remember that scren is still an important thing to do and eradicators can be screened out enough to just expose yourself to max 1 unit that will have -1 to hit all the time.
Also overrun is king.

Surprised I didn't see more excitement for our big boy. It went down to 850 points? That means I can actually field it in a game now!

The base size is going to be a problem, if you put a healthy amount of terrain on your boards (as you should).

 Nitro Zeus wrote:
Scythed Hierodule is probably the best unit the army now. But I’d hesitate before buying up on them because they will very possibly be matched or outclassed by the codex monsters, and I think our codex is coming soon.

Nitro Zeus, saying exactly what I intended to before I had the chance, as usual.

Looking at my favorite big bug, I see these as the nerfs:
-Down to 18 wounds vs 22.
-Down to 6 attacks from 7+1 (for talons).
-No more moving over models, or freely falling back and charging.
-No more flat 6" Advance or 3D6-drop-lowest charge.

But! Within each of these nerfs, there's a silver lining:
-Degradation no longer impacts Attacks, so instead of 7-5-3 it's a flat 6.
-Instead of movement degrading 12"-8"-4", it's 12"-9"-6".
-Not being a LoW means it is eligible for Hive Fleet traits again and now they're actually useful- with Kraken you get fall-back-and-charge back for repositioning, and 3D6-pick-highest Advance gives you an average of a little over 5".
-Hive Instinct and Hunter's Drive get the 3D6-drop-lowest back.

Then there are the straight buffs, and they're enormous:
-Talons got a significant damage upgrade, from 3.5 average to 5.5; making the net damage output significantly higher against large units, and providing consistent minimum-4 damage to eat Gravis units.
-Acid Spray gets 50% more shots and over double the range, making it actually usable on turns where you end outside of charge distance. At an average of 10.5 hits usable in melee, this is also a get-out-of-jail-free card against being charged by small units of infantry.
-That sweet, sweet points reduction and no more CP to bring it.

My tl;dr is mobility is down but the losses can be mostly recouped, raw durability is down but with better degradation, lethality is up massively, and cost is WAY down. This is a huge improvement; what remains to be seen like Nitro said is how the codex units will stack up. Either way, I can see myself picking up a second for the fun of it.

Edit: Unrelated, but 6" radius on the Malanthrope is, IMO, the best buff of all of them. As much as I like mine (see: avatar), that 3" radius was a total pain in the ass to stay in and heavily constrained my movement. A 6" radius provides a lot more breathing room and is well worth the increase in price.

Very good write. Fully agree on the Malanthrope 3” range was so annoying. Changing that helps a LOT for any Nidzilla build trying to tank up a little.

I agree with you on all points just a couple of things. I think the average damage went from 3.5 to 5 (not 5.5) unless I’m missing something? Still a great change.

Also, the loss of Agile is imo, a buff. I played Hierodule in 8th and did very well with him, but one thing that is easily overlooked - agile means he didn’t actually roll any dice when advancing, and Kraken strat doubles the result of an advance roll, meaning it couldn’t be used on him. An aggressive Nidzilla running Scythed Hierodules should basically always be Kraken imo, so with 3D6 pick highest to advance he’s usually gonna be doing 5 or 6 inches anyway, and now you can use the strat + Overrun to push him further - they are such a big target even now that they don’t wanna spend a single turn out of CC if they can help it.




I put so much work into my first one that I don’t wanna build a second! But honestly until we get out dex two or three might be really good. Spamming Hierodules is also exactly the sort of thing that probably won’t be good by the next edition or ever again lol so I thinking about showing restraint here.

Another thing about dules, if GW get around to fixing the Tyrannocyte disembarkation problem with big bases (which is really annoying because i bought mine specifically for dropping in my acidfex or soon to be bought haruspex) as its now under 20 wounds (im assuming it has the Monster keyword yes? silly if it doesn't) then the way will be open for mass orbital heirodule insertion...could be very surprising for opponents no? I dont mind a 9" charge and we currently have a few strats that can help with that.

Christmas may indeed see me buying my first ever FW Nid models

Saying that, Im weird with my Tcyte, plan was to run it with venom cannon (yes, i know its expensive) and the Synaptic enhancement physiology for two reasons.

1. It guarantees synapse where I need it (and will help with no -1 to hit for the venom cannons because of instinctive behaviour if I have to drop it well away from my army (because of silly marine auras or whatever)

2. In my 8th edition games, the number of people who underestimated just how dangerous 5 venom cannon are even with a bs of 5+ was staggering. The resultant panic when someone realizes that "this isnt a drop pod its an actual monster that can kill stuff often lead to snap errors in judgement re targeting priorities allowing my fexes and tyrants to get up the board relatively unharmed. I know its a LOT of points but never underestimate psychologial warfare

Really wish i could play because so far this year I've has NOT ONE SINGLE GAME and we are back in lockdown again,,gahh.

Wanna try experimenting with the the build your own bugfleet rules as well :(

The Tyrannocite has a "max capacity" of a monster with 14 Wounds or less. The Hierodule is simply not fitting in one (and it shouldn't).

Cursed cider!!! You are right of course. Disregard orbital dules please. Getting overexcited bout rules it seems. Sorry all. Haruspex it is then.

 Nitro Zeus wrote:
I agree with you on all points just a couple of things. I think the average damage went from 3.5 to 5 (not 5.5) unless I’m missing something? Still a great change.

Nope, you're right, I mistyped. The super cool thing is that this means that despite the reduction in attacks, we're looking at a very slight increase in average wounds inflicted against multiwound targets- and fewer, higher-damage attacks will certainly be more useful in a meta that will likely be chock-full of damage-reduction abilities, given the change to Dreads.

 Nitro Zeus wrote:
Also, the loss of Agile is imo, a buff. I played Hierodule in 8th and did very well with him, but one thing that is easily overlooked - agile means he didn’t actually roll any dice when advancing, and Kraken strat doubles the result of an advance roll, meaning it couldn’t be used on him. An aggressive Nidzilla running Scythed Hierodules should basically always be Kraken imo, so with 3D6 pick highest to advance he’s usually gonna be doing 5 or 6 inches anyway, and now you can use the strat + Overrun to push him further - they are such a big target even now that they don’t wanna spend a single turn out of CC if they can help it.

That's a really good point about them now benefitting from Opportunistic Advance. A T1 charge seems very doable if you can get Onslaught on it; 22-24" of movement before charging is downright rude. I agree that the reduction in durability combined with the increase in lethality is pushing it even further into the super-aggressive glass cannon role. I think the nicest thing will be that it's now cheap enough that you're not totally screwed if you flub the charge for whatever reason and it gets shot.

Speaking of speedy glass cannons, thoughts on the new Dimachaeron? My gut feeling is that it hasn't improved enough to justify the cost (or be better than the Scythed Hierodule in this role), but I haven't sat down and done much theorycrafting with it.

The Hierodule is better, but the Dima has an inherent invulnerable and a way to get FNP and moves as if it had FLY.

I could see Kraken lists that have 2 Hierodules with Dermic Symbiosis and also Dimas to move across more dense terrain.

IMHO it is a case of the Dima not being bad, it is just that the Hierodule is better.

They both have their use, since the Dima can walk over chaffs and move-blocking VEQ and can be lethal in a well positioned T1 charge, where the Hierodule is insane outflanked and tapped by the swarmlord. If it would be possible to enhance the survivability of fexxes aswell, nidzilla would be back in fashion in no time.

Personally I have to deal with double manticores and shooting as mech chickens all day, so dunno how to fix that ATM.

Outflank + SL doesn't work iirc. Cannot move again after coming in from reserves.

Hope folks don't mind me posting, I'm looking for a bit of advice on how best to update my Tyranid force that I've had since I was a teenager. The last proper edition I played Tyranids was 5th edition, so I do not have many of what were considered new then.

How much work would it be to shape the list of minis below into something that would be a respectable army on the tabletop? I can see from the lists posted that I'd basically need to start from scratch as there aren't many units I have that would be considered in a list, but help is always appreciated!

1x Hive Tyrant (no wings, it's the metal/plastic hybrid)
16x Genestealers
16x Termagants
16x Hormagaunts
1x Tyranid Prime
5x Warriors
5x Ripper Swarm Bases
10x Gargoyles
2x Carnifexes
2x Hive Guard (old metal)
1x Tyrant Guard (old metal)
4x Zoanthropes (old metal)
1x Deathleaper

So with the new forge world rules are there new wind in the tyranid sails?

Tyranid Horde wrote:Hope folks don't mind me posting, I'm looking for a bit of advice on how best to update my Tyranid force that I've had since I was a teenager. The last proper edition I played Tyranids was 5th edition, so I do not have many of what were considered new then.

How much work would it be to shape the list of minis below into something that would be a respectable army on the tabletop? I can see from the lists posted that I'd basically need to start from scratch as there aren't many units I have that would be considered in a list, but help is always appreciated!

1x Hive Tyrant (no wings, it's the metal/plastic hybrid)
16x Genestealers
16x Termagants
16x Hormagaunts
1x Tyranid Prime
5x Warriors
5x Ripper Swarm Bases
10x Gargoyles
2x Carnifexes
2x Hive Guard (old metal)
1x Tyrant Guard (old metal)
4x Zoanthropes (old metal)
1x Deathleaper

That's a pretty well-rounded collection and you certainly don't need to start from scratch for casual play. The only models I see there that aren't frequently used are Tyrant Guard, Gargoyles, and Deathleaper; of those Gargoyles can be used to decent effect and Lictors are very handy so Deathleaper can just be played as a normal Lictor. Everything else would do just fine as Kraken or Leviathan.

The main issue I see with this collection is really that Tyranids nowadays are 'go big or go home' with regards to unit composition, for three reasons:
-We live or die on target saturation. One Carnifex is a fire magnet for every anti-tank unit in the enemy army. 3+ Carnifexes is better. 6+ Carnifexes is great.
-Lots of our units get bonuses, both explicit and implicit, when taken in numbers. Gaunts get re-rolls, Genestealers get bonus attacks, Warriors get more mileage from the Prime aura.
-Our stratagems (and Adaptive Physiology, from Blood of Baal) are enormous force multipliers, and larger units get correspondingly greater benefit.

So: if you're taking Hormagaunts, you usually want 20-30 per unit to swamp the enemy and tie up as many units as possible. If you're taking Warriors with a Prime, some people take units of 5 to avoid Blast, but I stick to 9 to maximize the number of Venom Cannons and the effect of Adaptive Physiology. Zoanthropes are a minimum squad size of 3, but taking 6 of them plus a Neurothrope massively increases their output and durability. If you want to bring big bugs that don't have invulns (see: Carnifexes), you want at least 3 at a minimum, and the more the merrier. Hive Guard have a minimum unit size of 3 to start with, but a squad of 6 gets the most out of Single-Minded Annihilation. And so on. The only units I regularly take at minimum size are Fleshborer-armed Termagants as throwaway screening units and Ripper Swarms as objective-grabbers.

Choice of hive fleet is also very important. Kraken and Leviathan improve mobility and durability respectively, so are good 'all-rounder' traits, but Jormungandr, Kronos, Gorgon, Hydra, and Behemoth all favor very specific playstyles and so will constrain your listbuilding. Hive fleet choice might be why you're getting the impression that most of your units aren't used; competitive Tyranid lists tend to lean hard into very specific units and builds. Of the two generalists, I've found Kraken to be immensely useful in 9th, and it's useful for everything you have except Hive Guard, so I'd start there.

At the moment, the two standout units that you will see in most lists are Hive Guard and Exocrines (usually played as Kronos). Hive Guard have excellent shooting that doesn't require LOS (making them easier to protect) and can pop Single-Minded Annihilation to shoot twice for 2CP, while Exocrines have an innate shoot-twice and a profile very well suited to killing Primaris. Genestealers used to be up there and you'll still see a lot of lists based around them (usually as Kraken, with the Swarmlord as a catapult), but the points increase they got going into 9th combined with a focus on midfield objectives made them less of an auto-take.

That said, the main issue with trying to theorycraft a specific list at the moment is that a new codex is on the way, so it might not be the best idea to chase the current meta. But generally speaking, bulking out your existing units and adding a monster or two will improve the efficiency of what you already have, give you more than enough to build a casual list from, and provide flexibility for whatever the new edition brings.

On that note, pewter Tyranids show up regularly on eBay, so you shouldn't have any problems if you want to get more of the models you already have.

Happy to answer any more specific questions you have.

Niiai wrote:So with the new forge world rules are there new wind in the tyranid sails?

I hesitate to make any statements that will certainly be invalid when our codex comes out, which looks to be sometime in the next 3-6 months. But for now, I'd say there aren't any big changes, besides the Hierodules becoming useful overnight.

 catbarf wrote:
I'd say there aren't any big changes, besides the Hierodules becoming useful overnight.

Which is amazing, IMO.

I lament the drop in durability, but the fact that I don't have to take a separate detachment (and pay CP) just to use mine is such a boon that I don't really care. I really want to try both of mine out in a game now.

Also the drop in durability is minor compared to the drop in cost.

Meaning point for point the Hierodule is actually more durable now.

 Tyran wrote:
The Hierodule is better, but the Dima has an inherent invulnerable and a way to get FNP and moves as if it had FLY.

I could see Kraken lists that have 2 Hierodules with Dermic Symbiosis and also Dimas to move across more dense terrain.

IMHO it is a case of the Dima not being bad, it is just that the Hierodule is better.

I’ve had a long think about what’s the best thing to bring alongside two Dermic Scythed Hierodules. Dima’s aren’t priced bad but honestly T6 is a different ball game to T8 - however the invuln may even that up. I don’t know if just maxing up on Monster size melee beatsticks is the way tho, you mighnt have enough dice just to push infantry and stuff back. To be fair it still leaves 850 or so pts, but after a Malanthrope, some Neurothrope support, and scoring units of our own, as well as strong nods towards stuff like a Maleceptor and maybe a Swarmlord, I’m not sure that Dimas are the right unit. They might be though I dunno they are definitely not bad. Maybe just shoring up the rest of the list with things like Dakkafex or even Acid Spray Tyrannofex is an option.

But really a third Scythed Hierodule honestly is probably the best option especially since it comes with that flamer and isn’t much pricier than a Tyrannofex now, and this to me is a pretty good indicator of “I’m gonna wait for the dex” because when the dex comes there’ll definitely be better options. Points reductions on TFex and Carni’s will make them much more useful for example. [user]

I did not realize the old Dima was T6.

My mistake, new one is S7 T7. But it did lost 1 in WS.