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JHall wrote:Right, as Derling mentioned, there are still lots of good options for CSMs. As someone who has almost 4K of Black Legion painted with almost 70 models of basic CSMs, I still think they pack quite the punch. I love the 2 CCWs and 2 Specials that Chaos can get. Granted, you have to have 10 man or bigger squads to get the 2 Specials, but they still can dish out some firepower.

Yeah, I watched a game a couple of days ago with CSM spam as the primary strategy of the Chaos player and it was surprisingly effective.

Of course, Rhinos are quite good in large quantities, and being able to fill them with reasonably priced, resilient troops happy shooting or in assault is great.

I would love it for the Loyalists to be able to take 2 Specials. I find Heavy Weapons to be useless in Tactical squads for the most part. Especially now that you can't take a small 5 man squad with a missile launcher or lascannon to park on a hill somewhere.

You can still do that with Combat Squads. With dirt cheap HB razorbacks, expect to see exactly that -- 5 marines, sergeant and special weapon in HB Razorback, 5 marines with Lascannon sitting back on a hill.

Schepp himself wrote:Damn, I hoped that they at least have the option for BP/CCW.

Can they have two special weapons if they are 10 en strong? Or is it the usual one heavy/one special weapon combination?

If not, my (far future) planed army would be hard to build.

Greets
Schepp himself

nu but a 5 man team ma take 1 special flamer an melta are free
and a 10 man ma take a extra heavy bolter rocket and multi melta are free

derling wrote:a lower Leadership attribute

Loyalists get a Ld9 srg standard.

JHall wrote:I find Heavy Weapons to be useless in Tactical squads for the most part. Especially now that you can't take a small 5 man squad with a missile launcher or lascannon to park on a hill somewhere.

You can if you split them into combat squads. And the missile launcher is free.

mothman_451 wrote:@hellfury
exactly, so what was the point of them explaining it could fit 6 terminators, unless it will matter in the future
...
...

Sometimes stuff is in codexes because they cut and pasted it from somewhere else without checking, or they wrote a rule during early development and changed it alter but forgot to take the old version of the rule out.

They probably will put Termies in pods though.

Abadabadoobaddon wrote:

derling wrote:a lower Leadership attribute

Loyalists get a Ld9 srg standard.

And CSM are Ld10 standard, are they not?

Shhh Lormax, you are spoiling people's Space-Marinez-bashing-without-having-seen-the-codex-themselves-ranting.

Jeez, I thought this thread said "facts" in the subject....

derling wrote:Well, Loyalists get that, weaker flexibility, an inability to take 2 assault weapon in a tactical squad, a lower Leadership attribute, and no second close combat weapon in melee.

I don't know about weaker flexibility - The ability to custom your squads via commanders and combat-squad rule vs. KP/Objective missions is huge - and the ability to split the heavy weapon and assault weapon into combat squads mitigates the weakness of taking both in the same unit. Weaker LD on paper maybe, but with auto-regroup, marine squads are good to the last drop.

Here's what erks me a bit about the new marine dex vs. the V4 dexes:

Space Marines:

Changes in force org depending on commander

Special Rules for army (non USR): Combat Tactics, ASTKNF. Arguably 2+ considering that force commander changes can alter combat tactics

Special Rules Exceptions: Many. (Vanguard Vets, Landspeeder Storm etc.)

BA/DA are arguably weaker in comparison, as they loose out on all the special rules, and none of the vehicle erratas appear to be transferring over. As mentioned elsewhere, this is assinine as it will only add confusion. On a fluff note, the vehicle non-similarities are problematic, as the Imperium (and Daemonhunters/Chaos) to an extent use the same STCs. BA/DA special characters are pretty much Gak compared to the new SM characters.

BT might have come out ok, but not many people play them around where I am, so I am unfamiliar with that codex.

Chaos

Single list. V4 removed all alternate force orgs. No force org changes possible

Special Rules for army (non USR): Daemon Summoning. V4 removed all army build specific bonuses

Special Rules Exceptions: Daemons don't use up slots

Chaos is a competitve book, but is extremely bland. Chaos has zero bonuses for fluffy builds and no options for non-standard force-org armies, nor is there any way to gain more utility out of the really Gak units by boosting them through force org changes. Their one special rule is kind of a Gak one and does not have any inherent advantages. Chaos vehicles will probably never be errataed to have (at least) the same troop capacity as the Marine vehicles. I guess they used the extra space to store skulls. Their special characters are all eclipsed in power by the new SM characters - in particular, Arhiman is now no better and more expensive than an upgraded Marine Librarian. Their dreadnoughts, spawn and posessed are hard to use. Bikes were majorly reduced in power from V3 as they lost their all important 2nd attack in CC and with daemons nerfed, they are no longer a used as a summoning platform either.

Eldar

Single list. V4 codex removed all alternate force orgs. No force org changes possible

Special Rules for army (non USR): V4 removed all army special rules. None!

Special Rules Exceptions: Holofields/runes etc.

Eldar is a competitve book, but again lacks from diverse successful builds. Due to their psychic powers, and holofields, they've got a lot of resilience in a few spots, but largely, they are a non-fearless, expensive T3 army. Marine Librarians are arguably stronger than their most potent psykers, possibly equalling Eldrad. Outside of vehicles, Marines can out-fight most of the list and in some cases, out shoot many Eldar units on a 1:1 basis for less points. For an army where the fluff states their troops spend a lifetime honing their abilities, their elite troops are only -equal- to a Marine, often for more points.

Tyranids

Single list. V4 removed all alternate force orgs. No force org changes possible

Special Rules for army (non USR): Synapse

Special Rules Exceptions: Synapse

Tyranids is a competive book... but lacks from diverse successful builds. Many options are never seen, due to their sub-par nature.

Orks
I consider Orks to be essentially a V5 book.

On its own, there are no problems with the new Marine dex, but looking at the 40k system as a whole, I think this reinforces the need for a "ravening hordes style reboot" at the start of a new edition.

missile lancher, heavy bloter and multi melta is free for heavy weapons

Hey, thanks for all the info. Some questions regarding the new dex if you don't mind;

Is the teleport home the scouts carry (Deep strike homer) something they carry...or they throw down on the field and is static?
If it is static (something they throw down), when do they do it?

I guess I'm trying to figure out if scout bikes could scout move before game, move turn 1, the move turn 2 with beacon...and enable the vets to DS/Assault pretty much anywhere you wanted on their side of the board.

Another Landspeeder question.. How much is the Scout Speeder, and Scouts?

I know they downgraded scouts (Waah) but what did the points go to?

Also, how is the Scout Speeder armed?

-Porkuslime

and if you are using more than one you can try and do it with tha flank march tingy sqouts have now

keezus wrote:

derling wrote:Well, Loyalists get that, weaker flexibility, an inability to take 2 assault weapon in a tactical squad, a lower Leadership attribute, and no second close combat weapon in melee.

I don't know about weaker flexibility - The ability to custom your squads via commanders and combat-squad rule vs. KP/Objective missions is huge - and the ability to split the heavy weapon and assault weapon into combat squads mitigates the weakness of taking both in the same unit. Weaker LD on paper maybe, but with auto-regroup, marine squads are good to the last drop.

I can understand what you're saying. The can custom their squads. Of course Chaos has 4 more troop types to choose from. Chaos also has the capacity to yeild little in the way of KP, as the abilty to field 20 man Troop squads can make for an army with few KPs to give.

I'm not saying that CSM are the best list ever, but those that do to just start whining how CSM get the shaft...it seems kind of lanky to me. (though I do think on a single model basis, the CSM may be the most flexible 15pts which can be spent in the game),

keezus wrote:Chaos is a competitve book, but is extremely bland. .

I think in comparison to the CA Cult marine chapters and 4th ed codex, I completely agree with a feeling of blandness and can sympathize with some of the culture shock. Eldar players dealt with an even more extreme selection of options for the duration of 3rd ed and most of 4th ed and complaints were cited there too.

I think the Chaos book is a touch bland in comparison to books like the rumored Marine book, but I think the sentiment expressed in this case is often overstated Given the mass of unit choices, the blandness/maleability comes from a lack of specific of special rules and not in the selection of the army. I think they were strapped down a bit more than it should

keezus wrote:/On its own, there are no problems with the new Marine dex, but looking at the 40k system as a whole, I think this reinforces the need for a "ravening hordes style reboot" at the start of a new edition.

I largely agree. The method of handling it is probably more tricky than just throwing out some FAQS, but I would have liked to see a Ravening Hordes style of correction.

I think it would be much more of a non-issue if BA/DA hadn't come out before this book so recently, as I feel that is really where most of the true trouble stems from.Outside of a touch of blandness and the need for some eventual Cult specific rules(in what ever form they come), I thin the Chaos Codex is a solid, competitive, and versitile list.

derling wrote:Chaos also has the capacity to yeild little in the way of KP, as the abilty to field 20 man Troop squads can make for an army with few KPs to give.

Sure they can bulk up to 20, but Chaos can't split that unit in an objective mission. This is huge in tournament play.

Kilkrazy wrote:

mothman_451 wrote:@hellfury
exactly, so what was the point of them explaining it could fit 6 terminators, unless it will matter in the future
...
...

Sometimes stuff is in codexes because they cut and pasted it from somewhere else without checking, or they wrote a rule during early development and changed it alter but forgot to take the old version of the rule out.

They probably will put Termies in pods though.

Or they forgot to include the DP entry as a transport option for termies in their entry.

Either is just as likely.

I can never get the quote function to work right :(

keezus wrote:
Sure they can bulk up to 20, but Chaos can't split that unit in an objective mission. This is huge in tournament play.

I htink with how scoring units retain scoring status until the last model is dead makes this largely a non-issue. 20 marines running at you in 1 squad or two takes or contests the objective either way as long as a single marine on one of those units is left. 20 marines bolstered by a cult icon benefit greatly

I'm not saying Combat squads isn'rt a great rule in it's own right, but it also has some holes. special models in combat squads get picked off somewhat easily in those squads now, so the lascannon trooper isn't as safe as he used to be.

Chaos marines also get access to their assault weapons as early as the initial purchase of 5 models.

We're really just going back and forth here and I think if we think hard enough about it, we see each other's side. I think it's largley a case of the grass being greener on the other side. I like both(enough so I am quickly converting my 13th Co over to a CSM renegades "counts as" army)

CSM dex overall is a great dex and I think will still allow more flexibility than the new marine dex. D-Princes for the points are a great option and still one of the best HQ choices in all of 5th.

From what I see, Termies do not get drop pods. It is not mentioned in either the Dedicated Transport page or on the Terminator or Assault Terminator entries. And only one squad of each type of Terminator squad in the army can have a dedicated Land Raider (any type though).

Marines are indeed 16 points (all math considered), but the sergeant does get 'Terminator Honors' in there, so that bonus Leadership and Attack cost 10 points.

Speaking of which, there is no longer Terminator Honors, so the only way to get a bonus attack for a IC or such is to buy Terminator armor - but you generally won't be getting any bonus for being armed with 2 CC weapons unless you have lightining claws.

Librarians cannot have Storm Shields (or combat shields, for that matter, which stink now) unless they are in Terminator armor.

Ozymandias wrote:Wait, so Pred Destructors are only 85 points (10 points cheaper than C: DA and C: BA)? And Land Speeders with Assault Cannons are 90 (again 100 for DA)?

And I can take an entirely bike mounted army with a bike mounted captain?

Why would I use my C: DA anymore?

Ozymandias, King of Kings

Clearly you're not supposed to. Grab a space marine codex and play. They aren't FAQing the previous books because the new one is open enough to create the mini codexes armies by itself.

Having read through it all (the actual book) i'd say the marine codex is pretty balanced

sure they have lots of toys- lots of VERY destructive stuff- but it all comes at a cost- just like the other codecies

I wouldn't say it was overpowered in any one aspect- as the marines are jack of all trades- but will get beaten in a particular aspect of the game by one of the other armies...

they ggot stuff to make em intristing for peaple go have bin playing along time.
I like the tech marine as hq I love tech marines.

Got a glance at the new codex yesterday. The most obvious thing to me is that they got more template options and several things that ignore cover saves. Also got a ton of flexibility with the elite unit that has 4 ammo types and the Thunder Cannon that has 3 ways to fire.

Nice how both the Typhon and Cyclone Missile Launchers are effectively 2 regular Missile Launchers.

One of the psy powers on a Librarian will ruin any Demon player's fun... Any enemy Inv save that is passed within 24" of him must reroll the save.

And Hellfire rounds are just sweet. Poison weapons needing a 2+ to wound anything.

Wildstorm wrote:And Hellfire rounds are just sweet. Poison weapons needing a 2+ to wound anything.

Ayup. Haven't seen as much discussion on those over the AP3 Gets Hot rounds, but wound on 2+ is impressively good. Not only is it better than the AP3 rounds against marines in cover, but those rounds rapid firing are better than a Lascannon against a C'tan. They've got tools to improve shooting against anything.

Question-Is the idiotic rule that if the squad starts off the board, it forgets how to combat squad still in the combat squad rule?

Sternguard will be the cheese of the list. Too damn powerful. Maybe it wouldn't be so bad if you had to choose one ammo type at the beginning of the game and had to stick with it, but the fact you can change off each shooting phase is pure BS. Completely broken, a bargain at twice the cost.

You mean the squad that will cost near 300 points or more when fully tricked out?

porkuslime wrote:Another Landspeeder question.. How much is the Scout Speeder, and Scouts?

I can't remember how much the Scout Speeder is - think it's 50 pts, but Scouts are 12 pts each.

porkuslime wrote:Also, how is the Scout Speeder armed?

It's not. Well, it has the Cerberus Launcher - a three-barreled grenade-launcher that fires smoke, flash-bang, and concussion grenades. These do no damage, mind you, but scares the bejeezus out of the enemy so that when the Scouts assault from it, enemies are -2 Ld.

So... White Scars >> Ravenwing!

JohnHwangDD wrote:So... White Scars >> Ravenwing!

That's the way it should be