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And Space Wolves got almost as much from the new Space Marine codex. A single page that was initially posted in White Dwarf does not make a new codex.

Thanks Derek, I stand pleasantly corrected . I also noted no 0-1 restriction for LRC .

What happened?
Did I miss something?

How did this thread go from a "product release schedule update" thread to a "whining about Space Wolves" thread?
Did I miss something in JHDD's initial post?

Eric

I think that's my fault.

I simply stated that the Wolves should be in 2009. I didn't care when. I don't want to push any of the other releases. I just want Wolves in 2009.

It spiraled out from there. So I'll take ownership.

And I'll reiterate...I want the Wolves to be released in 2009. Not in place of the DE, mind you. But if they replaced IG or Necrons, I wouldn't lose any sleep over it.

MagickalMemories wrote:What happened?
Did I miss something?

How did this thread go from a "product release schedule update" thread to a "whining about Space Wolves" thread?
Did I miss something in JHDD's initial post?

Eric

Because SW aren't in the product release schedule update... (thus I whine ). Anyways, I am equally to blame ... so oh well, I am done venting.

The other factor was the original rumormill grist that indicated the SW were coming due in the winter of 2008/2009. Models exist. The army has been teased, usually by Phil Kelly. Then the rumor hit they were now scheduled for released in Q3/Q4 2009. Painful, but the schedule is variable. To see something that states they might not even be in 2009 is painful. Pretty simple.

To be fair, I'm certain they still are. As I pointed out, it's an easy Codex, especially if the models exist. So the comment did not appear out of thin air. There is history to it. People I trust more than BolS are expecting them in 2009, but there is nothing more specific than that.

Given the fact that whichever codex this forum decides is 'older' makes no difference to GW's plan as it stands, is it really worth any more pages of debate on the minutiae of updates vs. rewrites?

EDIT: Looks like someone's made the point already

The few SW models shown are for the collectors range.

BrookM wrote:The few SW models shown are for the collectors range.

Thanks for stripping me of what little hope I had left

I seriously doubt that they will underpower it. With the way fantasy armies have been going recently, it's likely to be excessively brutal and join the ranks of VE and Daemons in the "Mike Tyson vs. Little Jimmy" category when put up against older armies.

erm, i doubt it, with 9 per army thier points will have to take a cut, at 250 that would be crazy.
and there are no chances the steggy's stats or rules will be improved, just made worse to accomodate the 9 per army crap.

It's not. Dark Eldar 1st Edition was published in 1998. Space Wolves add on for the Space Marines codex was published in 2000.

dienekes96 wrote:Substantial is a judgment call. You initially stated they ONLY fixed typos, which was not accurate. So I was clarifying that point. While also pointing out that I understand the fundamental DE line is older, it still does NOT break GW's rule of one book = one army. Only one army does that.

Substantial is not a judgment call in this case, the number of differences would probably be less than 10% of the total book, versus the 90%+ other books see. The fact is very little of the book was changed. I spoke in hyperbole when I said only typos.

dienekes96 wrote:Fortunately for me, my army is the 13th Company, so I need THREE books to play that one. But I didn't bring that up because the 13th doesn't really exist in that form anymore. And the point about having two books isn't a gripe...I have money. It's the fact that it does not meet GW's stated goal, whereas every other Codex does. So I'd argue that it is the book most in need of revision, being the second oldest and single least compliant army list.

The real issue isn't about how much it deviates from the common practice as it is about the degree viability has been diminished. The minimal number of special rules that any of the Space Marine armies use relative to other armies makes it such that they will almost always be least affected by edition changes. Updating both DE and SW are something I strongly believe need to happen, I just think DE will happen first because of their significantly diminished viability and poor models.

dienekes96 wrote:Then it sucks for all five of the DE players. I specifically chose an army allowing me maximum utility through the model ranges GW produces. As you eloquently pointed out, this is about models, not rules. I know new Wolf Models exist, and I want them. Since the SW is so easy of a redo (since it's just the SM book rejiggered, according to you), they should pop them out first. Low risk, high reward...unlike the DE.

I know more DE players than SW players; if it sucks for all five DE players it sucks for both of the SW players. If your choice to play SW was so meticulous as to be based on maximum utility it seems like an oversight on your part to choose something you so strongly object to being as aged as it is. SW's new models are far off, aside from the collector models, but they will always benefit from marine models getting update. The DE players I know have had their armies since they came out in third and it was less about a choice of utility and more about how much they liked the DE concept. The world has seen enough marines, most players can wait another few months for DE before SW.

i know 2 DE armies (3 including mine) while i know of 1 SW army (which has been put away due to its 13th company)

I'm happy to hear bout the DE release and might get rid of my old army.

I'd just like to say that my Yuan Yuan and Hellcats are really looking forward to having a Valkyrie to AD: Combat Jump out of.

ha ha Im just stoked that Imperial Guard get the codex update they need so bad, and the reason why DE and SW dosent have a new one is because they're crap

wwwooooo Imperial Guard for the Imperial Guard god!!!

No but seriously, looking forward to a guard update also.

dienekes96 wrote:I think that's my fault.

I simply stated that the Wolves should be in 2009. I didn't care when. I don't want to push any of the other releases. I just want Wolves in 2009.

It spiraled out from there. So I'll take ownership.

And I'll reiterate...I want the Wolves to be released in 2009. Not in place of the DE, mind you. But if they replaced IG or Necrons, I wouldn't lose any sleep over it.

I would. While SW need an update badly, so does IG, DH, WH, DE etc.

Necrons I'd probably agree with you, but IG really do need a new book *badly*

From a Codex standpoint, Woofs are clearly the worst off, as they don't have a standalone book - they're required to also use the SM book. At least, make a WD list to break them off separately.

From a rules comprehension standpoint, Necrons are in dire need of cleanup and streamlining so that they play properly.

From a numbers / competitiveness standpoint, IG are the largest core army (SM, CSM, Eldar, Orks, IG, Nids) that hasn't been redone into something that works properly for 5E play.

DH, WH, and DE are all effectively standalone Codices with minimal rules issues, and insignificant numbers. These are all lower priority compared to the armies above.

Raxor wrote:Generic daemons eh? Can't say CSMs are being ignored.

You have those now...

1. Take 1 standard GW round base.
2. Take a 6" section of plastic sprue.
3. Hold sprue over heating element until it gets "plastic"
4. Push end on base until it can "stand"
5. Use pin or pliers to pull, push, squeese until it looks vaguely daemonic humanoid.
6. Paint gray. (After all you don't want to infringe on the copyrighted colors of Tzeench, Slaanesh, Khorne or Nurgle.)
7. Laugh bitterly at the old days when the chaos gods truly supported the fallen marines.
8. Pray to the GW chaos gods that they will not realize your blob demons can still assault on the turn they appear lest they realize they left you this one power that the true chaos demons lack.

DAaddict wrote:
8. Pray to the GW chaos gods that they will not realize your blob demons can still assault on the turn they appear lest they realize they left you this one power that the true chaos demons lack.

What?

FWIW, Kroxigors and Dryads would be pretty decent stand-ins for generic Daemons.

If I did Chaos, I'd combine Marine torsos and legs with Beastmen Gor heads, arm, and maybe some legs. I'd use the Ungors as Lesser Demons, and the Shaggoth as a Greater Demon.

Let me clear this up. The DE codex was reprinted to include vehicle upgrade rules, which had been printed in a White Dwarf, and to generalize wych weapons. That's all apart from minor tweaks and type-o corrections. It was errata that should have been included in the first place and it essentially changed nothing. The vehicle upgrades were quickly scribbled rules that Gav Thorpe slapped together, many of them unpractical or outright useless. It was basically an edit. The most minor change ever made to an army and a very poor excuse to neglect the DE the way they've done. There are more DE players out there than most of you realize. They're all simply putting up with playing other armies until GW gives them an excuse to pick up their favorite army once again.
Didn't space wolves get 13th company rules in Eye of Terror campaign? That's more of a change than what DE got with their edited codex. Imo, to suggest that space marines of any shape, form, flavor or chapter deserve an update before Dark Eldar is outrageously delusional. No matter how you slice it, there simply is no army more deserving of a complete rehash and massive update.

For those who haven't already seen them, I'll share pics of my DE. I plan to paint the new models based on the same theme:
http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/217918.page#375626

Archonate wrote:The DE codex was reprinted to include vehicle upgrade rules, which had been printed in a White Dwarf, and to generalize wych weapons.

There are more DE players out there than most of you realize. Didn't space wolves get 13th company rules in Eye of Terror campaign?

Imo, to suggest that space marines of any shape, form, flavor or chapter deserve an update before Dark Eldar is outrageously delusional.

No matter how you slice it, there simply is no army more deserving of a complete rehash and massive update.

For those who haven't already seen them, I'll share pics of my DE.

Correct. And that makes it a different, NEW Codex. I have a first printing DE Codex, and the revision is clearly up-powered. And post-dates the SW Codex.

So there are whopping *3* Dark Eldar players, instead of just 2? OK, I'll believe that.

No. 13th Company is a separate army that requires the SW Codex, which requires the SM Codex. And it's deader than your DE. Tho when you make the comparsion, really, most players see that as a request for GW to declare SW to be a dead Codex altogether... I can easily see GW agreeing... Perhaps we'll hear that Comorragh got eaten by the Nids???

"Delusional"? I think that's a bit strong. Particularly given that Necrons are effectively another flavor of Marines, and they are far more in need of a new Codex than Dark Eldar. Necrons have a lot of confusing rules, whereas DE are pretty simple.

Also, for all intents and purposes, DE got both a massive update *and* then a follow-up refresh. They were published as "Codex: Tau" and "Codex: Tau Empire".

No thanks. The DE models are hands down the ugliest range of models that GW has produced since 3rd Edition was published. Horrible sculpting. Horrible details. Horrible poses. There isn't a single model in the lot that I'd be proud to call my own. I'm so glad I sold my DE army!

I know several DE players and not one space wolves player. I've seen at least 10 DE armies in all my years, while in the same time have only seen 1 SW army.

Seriously any changes made to Codex: DE all those years ago were less substantial than the changes between "Codex: Tau and "Codex: Tau Empire," at best it could be called a revision more than an update. Proof of the fact that the revisions were insubstantial is that GW did not accompany the "second release" with any new miniatures and that it did not reserve a unique ISBN for the revised book. Both show that GW did not intend it to be considered a new release so much as an update.

The DE models are some of the worst, that alone should merit an update before any other army. The rules for the DE is showing its age and has much to be desired.

I would dare anyone to come up with a list of true deficiencies in the SW list without referencing Codex: SM. I'm confident the DE list would be longer and more substantial. While a majority of changes are not true deficiencies but rather envy for what the new marine codex has.

JohnHwangDD wrote:There isn't a single model in the lot that I'd be proud to call my own.

Not even the trenchcoated Inquibi or half naked slave girls? I'm mean sure, the rest..... But not even those two?

Not that I want to bash SW players or anything like that, but the new Marine 'Dex does seem to allow a lot of different options, including veterans with a lot of CC options. I don't really see what the old SW Codex would bring to the table that couldn't be build slightly different with the new maine book.

Except Leman Russ exterminators, pet wolfs and maybe some psychic powers I can't think of anything that interesting in the old space wolf codex.

Correct me, if I'm wrong....

Anung Un Rama wrote:Not that I want to bash SW players or anything like that, but the new Marine 'Dex does seem to allow a lot of different options, including veterans with a lot of CC options. I don't really see what the old SW Codex would bring to the table that couldn't be build slightly different with the new maine book.

Except Leman Russ exterminators, pet wolfs and maybe some psychic powers I can't think of anything that interesting in the old space wolf codex.

Correct me, if I'm wrong....

You're not wrong. Space Wolves get an update every time a new Space Marine codex is released. Besides wolves and psychic powers, the updates they've received have made their old codex as obsolete as any other 3rd edition SM codex.

Anung Un Rama wrote:Not that I want to bash SW players or anything like that, but the new Marine 'Dex does seem to allow a lot of different options, including veterans with a lot of CC options. I don't really see what the old SW Codex would bring to the table that couldn't be build slightly different with the new maine book.

Except Leman Russ exterminators, pet wolfs and maybe some psychic powers I can't think of anything that interesting in the old space wolf codex.

Archonate wrote:Besides wolves and psychic powers, the updates they've received have made their old codex as obsolete as any other 3rd edition SM codex.

Congratulations. You've both just illustrated exactly why SW need a new codex, and quickly.

It's clear you prefer DE over SW. You just don't have to make your need for a new codex somehow appear greater by trying to diminish the needs of other armies or the desires of their players.

JohnHwangDD wrote:
Correct. And that makes it a different, NEW Codex.

No, it does not. Or were each of the four 'editions' of the previous Codex Chaos Space Marines a NEW codex as well?