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Why not instead of arguing for your codex/codex's of choice, how about agree that games-workshop needs to get moving on getting them out quicker. 10 year, 2 edition gaps are pretty lame. I'm sure a lot would prefer getting the new rules in their hands, even with a few holes in the model range that will need filled later, than having to wait 2 editions for a new book.

As was said before, the DE are in works for some time now, only Rick Priestly has rejected two previous redesign concepts on the grounds of something not to his liking. GW is working on it, but they feel they need to do those pointy-eared rapists justice and redeem their selves in the process.

So, in the meantime we'll be getting Guard first!

aka_mythos wrote:The rules for the DE is showing its age and has much to be desired.

I would dare anyone to come up with a list of true deficiencies in the SW list without referencing Codex: SM.

Huh? Rules-wise DE are old-style (Retinues), but otherwise, they're fine.

That's obvious, given that SW are basically SM, so of course, they would need things like Combat Squads imposed on them.

Aduro wrote:

JohnHwangDD wrote:There isn't a single model in the lot that I'd be proud to call my own.

Not even the trenchcoated Inquibi or half naked slave girls? I'm mean sure, the rest..... But not even those two?

The Incubi are incredibly mediocre compared to other 2nd Edition models, which makes them the range-toppers. Pathetic, really. It's like finding the single year-old Chevy on a used car lot of rusty Yugos...

The slave girls aren't horrible, but then, they aren't really DE models - they don't correspond to any actual unit on their own. They're just decorations.

Ghaz wrote:

JohnHwangDD wrote:
Correct. And that makes it a different, NEW Codex.

No, it does not. Or were each of the four 'editions' of the previous Codex Chaos Space Marines a NEW codex as well?

Huh? You're not making sense here.

ubermosher wrote:
Congratulations. You've both just illustrated exactly why SW need a new codex, and quickly.

It's clear you prefer DE over SW. You just don't have to make your need for a new codex somehow appear greater by trying to diminish the needs of other armies or the desires of their players.

Seriously if GW has showed us anything its that you really can't expect much effort when it comes to them re-doing a marine codex.

GW will probably do the following:
Toss out "Blood Feud" and "No Matter the Odds"
Since they don't teleport to deepstrike they'll probably get drop pods.
They will probably lose the Leman Russ Exterminator in favor of another variant.
Point costs will come down. Because GW wants you to buy more.
You'll get some of the new options from the new SM codex, like the upgrades for Scouts.
They will probably gain a unit that is inexplicably a clone of a 13th company wulfen, which GW will call a new unit.
They will probably gain a new vehicle... maybe that "longboat" concept.

Modelwise: Conversion bits for Scouts, bikes, and generic marines. SW symbols for every vehicle. A new wolf. A redone special character model. Kits for the new vehicle and "wulfen."

JohnHwangDD wrote:

aka_mythos wrote:The rules for the DE is showing its age and has much to be desired.

I would dare anyone to come up with a list of true deficiencies in the SW list without referencing Codex: SM.

Huh? Rules-wise DE are old-style (Retinues), but otherwise, they're fine.

That's obvious, given that SW are basically SM, so of course, they would need things like Combat Squads imposed on them.

Combat Squads? Why? It goes against their fluff completely. And its unnecessary from a balance stand point, since they do not have heavy weapons in their "tac squads."

And, in response to someone else, there are plenty of things that SM cannot do that SW can. Berserk charge blood claws, split-fire long fangs and scouts coming from behind enemy lines (which I hope they do not lose in favor of flank) just to name a few.

It's called the four different 'printings' of Codex Chaos Space Marines where each printing had different rules. Or the two printings of Codex Imperial Guard where one had servitors as wargear and the other did not. Those are no more NEW codices than what they did with Codex Dark Eldar. Codex Dark Eldar IS the oldest codex because the so-called 'Second Edition' is not a new codex. If it was, it wouldn't be a Second Edition', would it? No it would not.

JohnHwangDD wrote:

aka_mythos wrote:The rules for the DE is showing its age and has much to be desired.
I would dare anyone to come up with a list of true deficiencies in the SW list without referencing Codex: SM.

Huh? Rules-wise DE are old-style (Retinues), but otherwise, they're fine.

There are several antedated units in the DE codex, not just the retinue, that need improvements. Grotesques and Raider Squads to name two throw back units; Grotesques are worthless and the idea that a squad is somehow a unique unit because its 10 man smaller and can take a transport is weak and lazy on the part of GW. Grotesques need to be redone and DE need another troop choice.
Combat drugs could be reworked.
The Ravager is outgunned as a heavy support choice. Needs revisions.
The Talos should be a monstrous creature.
The Retinue needs adjustments.
Warp beasts should be re-worked, they're about even to a Wyche but cost more, warp beast should be made more worth while.
I want to avoid an Eldar comparison, but in general the elite units of the Eldar have such a leg up over the DE. Appropriate or not, it is what it is, though it strikes me their should be some degree of match up. And without the different aspect they need to have additional weapon options.
There are also several niches that should be filled in the army by new units, some could simply be addressed with revisions of other units but would go a long way of making them more of a standing army.

More than any other army they need more fluff. What fluff that is there is decent but a drop in the bucket compared to other armies.

It's a good thing this highly semantic debate is going on. I understand the GW Designers are watching the internets for conclusive proof of which one they should be working on next. This thread could be pivotal!

I don't think this is semantic at all, because it has nothing to do with differing meanings of words but with people opinions. Now that's a semantic argument.

OK, you got me, I was too polite to say 'pointless' and put 'semantic' instead. Now you forced my hand.

Tribune wrote:OK, you got me, I was too polite to say 'pointless' and put 'semantic' instead. Now you forced my hand.

Because, when it comes down to it, a website devoted to man dolls is highly necessary and important.

Ahhh, but there are different degrees of pointless. Clearly. Ahem...

Because ultimately, a website devoted to man dolls has a lot going for it!

(in before lock)

But we at least know that there has been siginificant work put into the DE by now. Only an insane person can deny that. Personally, it doesn't affect me that much whichever comes out first, as I'm working on another army right now that probably won't be finished by then.

aka_mythos wrote:
GW will probably do the following:
Toss out "Blood Feud" and "No Matter the Odds"
Since they don't teleport to deepstrike they'll probably get drop pods.
They will probably lose the Leman Russ Exterminator in favor of another variant.
Point costs will come down. Because GW wants you to buy more.
You'll get some of the new options from the new SM codex, like the upgrades for Scouts.
They will probably gain a unit that is inexplicably a clone of a 13th company wulfen, which GW will call a new unit.
They will probably gain a new vehicle... maybe that "longboat" concept.

Modelwise: Conversion bits for Scouts, bikes, and generic marines. SW symbols for every vehicle. A new wolf. A redone special character model. Kits for the new vehicle and "wulfen."

Pretty much:
- rules-wise, but Grey Hunters should get Combat Squads.
- I see Infiltrate being the SW gimmick, but Drop Pods should be standard. GW has a lot of Drop Pods to sell...
- Exterminator goes for sure, but I'd bank on the SW having the Predator Destructor replace the Exterminator.
- Point costs stay the same for infantry, down for Transports & non-Troops; Plasma becomes prohibitive, and will definitely cost more than a Blood Claw.
- Many options will carry, but I wouldn't count on a lot of Scout options.
- Wulfen are a no-brainer "NEW!!!" unit.
- As above, I'm guessing a Predator as their new vehicle, similar to how the BA have the Baal.

aka_mythos wrote:There are several antedated units in the DE codex, not just the retinue, that need improvements.

There are also several niches that should be filled in the army by new units, some could simply be addressed with revisions of other units but would go a long way of making them more of a standing army.

Mostly, you're talking about minor cleanup and rebalancing. But the fact remains that the DE are rules-simple as a stand-alone book that does'nt sell. They don't have the fundamental problems of the SW being attached to the SM book. Or the sheer rules mechanic problems in the Necrons. Or the sheer sales interest of the Guard. Those guys *need* new Codices at a very fundamental level. DE don't.

JohnHwangDD wrote:

aka_mythos wrote:
GW will probably do the following:
Toss out "Blood Feud" and "No Matter the Odds"
Since they don't teleport to deepstrike they'll probably get drop pods.
They will probably lose the Leman Russ Exterminator in favor of another variant.
Point costs will come down. Because GW wants you to buy more.
You'll get some of the new options from the new SM codex, like the upgrades for Scouts.
They will probably gain a unit that is inexplicably a clone of a 13th company wulfen, which GW will call a new unit.
They will probably gain a new vehicle... maybe that "longboat" concept.

Modelwise: Conversion bits for Scouts, bikes, and generic marines. SW symbols for every vehicle. A new wolf. A redone special character model. Kits for the new vehicle and "wulfen."

Pretty much:
- rules-wise, but Grey Hunters should get Combat Squads.
- I see Infiltrate being the SW gimmick, but Drop Pods should be standard. GW has a lot of Drop Pods to sell...
- Exterminator goes for sure, but I'd bank on the SW having the Predator Destructor replace the Exterminator.
- Point costs stay the same for infantry, down for Transports & non-Troops; Plasma becomes prohibitive, and will definitely cost more than a Blood Claw.
- Many options will carry, but I wouldn't count on a lot of Scout options.
- Wulfen are a no-brainer "NEW!!!" unit.
- As above, I'm guessing a Predator as their new vehicle, similar to how the BA have the Baal.

- Blood Feud will likely be Preferred Enemy. In the current FAQ Against the Odds was dropped altogether, something that continues to rub me raw, since we still pay the points for it. They should get Stubborn instead. True grit will become models armed with Bolter, BP, and CCW. Keep Counter Attack.
- They get drop pods now, and work really well with the list. In fact my drop podding SW list usually out-performs my mechanized list, due to the ability to take plasma/melta and 2 plasma pistols.
- I think whether or not the new IG codex has Leman Russ variant tanks will determine their fate for a new SW codex. If there are several new variants, I'd expect that not only will we keep the Exterminator, but get access to other variants as well. Gives the Wolves a unique flavor, and also follows the Rules-Driving-Sales business model.
- Point costs need to come down... No way my Wolf Lord and 4 Terminator Wolf Guard Body Guard should cost 400 points. 30 point WS/BS 3 bikers?
- The Rune Priest (SW Librarian) needs more (and different from other chapters) Psychic Powers and gear.
- The Wolf Priest needs major revisions. The unit is a Chaplain/Apothecary hybrid. His Fang of Morkai refers to the SM codex entry for the Reductor. Which of course no longer exists. Healing Balms cost 25 points and aren't nearly as good as the new Apothecaries. He costs 5 points less than a Chaplain, but only get the Power weapon and 4++ save. No fearless, no Reroll to hit. I'd rather have either a Chaplain or an Apothecary, not a hybrid that does neither job well.
- Iron Priest. Never even heard of one being included in a SW list. Some possibilities here such as allowing for Leman Russ(es) in the list.
- As much as I like the new SM Scout options, I really hope they don't change SW scouts to them. Their current flavor as grizzled commandos instead of new recruits (which are Blood Claws) is perfect. Operate Behind Enemy Lines is too good to give up. Actually, the SW codex says we can take one unit of Scouts as described in the SM codex. That can go.
- Keeping in line with the new development strategy, we should get some new/revamped Named Characters that allow for different list building strategies (Grey Hunters can infiltrate, unit X counts as troops, etc.). A named Dreadnought (Bjorn) would be cool, and unique.
- Long Fangs desperately need an overhaul. They're a great idea fluff wise, with absolutely no practical value on the tabletop. Long Fang Plastics would be welcome, too.
- A unit of Fenrisian Wolves that are Beasts seems like a no-brainer. I'd love to let a line of wolves with a 12" charge precede my main battleline. Seems like a good alternative to 30 Point Blood Claws with Jump Packs (30 point WS 3 Assault Marines? Gee thanks)
- Grey Hunters, or any unit, should absolutely not get Combat Squads... way too much of a Roboute concept.
- SW already get Pred Destructor.
- And yes, I expect some 13th Company flavor, including Wulfen Elites, and a 13th Company Named Character.

Soooo many opportunities for great gaming... come on Phil Kelly...

/wishlist

It's clear you prefer DE over SW. You just don't have to make your need for a new codex somehow appear greater by trying to diminish the needs of other armies or the desires of their players.

I didn't want to diminish any army, I just didn't know a lot about Werewolf Vikings from space, but they seem to have a lot of extras going for them
. Personally, I don't care if DE get a their book first or the other way round (as long as it won't be those ing Blood Angels).

I suppose they both need an update, but if we really get a plastic valkyre for guard, then the Space puppies and rappists can wait.

Anung Un Rama wrote:I suppose they both need an update, but if we really get a plastic valkyre for guard, then the Space puppies and rappists can wait.

Well there we agree.

Anung Un Rama wrote:if we really get a plastic valkyre for guard, then the Space puppies and rappists can wait.

QFT.

I'm counting on those Valks for next year!

New guard plastics just confirm my decision to hold off on my IG army until Spring.

New guard plastics. Man, I'm just getting my allotment of the last "new guard plastics" painted up. Slower than old folks uphill through the snow in January.

Hope those plastic Valkyries are out before my friend gets out of jail. Yeah, I know, that's an odd wish to have, but I want to run the 'Thunderhawk Down' scenario we wrote a while back as a 'welcome back' present, and as none of us are insane enough to buy a Thunderhawk, some Valk's will do!

Hell, the reason I own 6 squads of Karskin and a Deathwatch army was so we could the various forces.

BYE

H.B.M.C. has a new Avatar?! Do we have an apocalypse coming up I don't know about?

Also: My vote goes to "DakkaDakka: More Warseer than Warseer"

Yes. I'm now in colour. Next step - 3D!!!!

BYE

Admit it. You just did that because of that new guy who has a negative image of your former avatar and talks about you in his location-info

Actually no. While I was away I was on the other forum I'm from, and I noticed someone had this Avatar. It was basically my one in colour, so I thought for my blazing return I'd try something different.

I like it. It's Commissar Calgar Mk.II - now with more pigment!!

BYE

Prayers answered:

http://www.tabletopgamingnews.com/2008/10/14/18357#comment-28449

We have been sent release dates and US prices for the following Games Workshop releases from now until February 2009.

November 8th, 2008

Citadel Realm Of Battle Gameboard $200.00
Warhammer Armies: Warriors Of Chaos $25.00
Chaos Warhounds $22.00
Chaos Marauder Horsemen $22.00
Chaos Knights $22.00
Warriors Of Chaos Battalion $90.00
Chaos Warrior Chosen Command $30.00
Chaos Warrior Chosen $30.00
Khorne Chaos Lord On Juggernaut $30.00
Chaos Lord On Daemonic Mount $30.00
Nurgle Chaos Sorcerer $15.00
Wulfrik The Wanderer $15.00
Sigvald The Magnificient $15.00
Khorne Chaos Champion $15.00

January 9th, 2008

Ork Nobz $25.00
Ork Stormboyz $25.00
Ork Gretchin $15.00
Ork Battlewagon $50.00
Boss Zagstruk $20.00
Kaptin Badrukk $20.00
Boss Snikrot $15.00
February 9th, 2009

Warhammer Armies: Lizardmen $25.00
Lizardmen Stegadon $40.00
Lizardmen Saurus Temple Guard $25.00

I wonder what the Daemonic Mount will look like. Maybe it'll be convertible...

It's the dude on a horse.

They're making a captain Badrukk? Nice that for once, I geht that info before I build my own

I'm assuming that's 15.00 for a box of plastic gretchin not new metals right?