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Zahaladeen wrote:
2. Abbaddon has not featured in any of the current Ultramarine novels.

Not personally, no. But the Iron Warrior lords referenced the Despoiler a few times, and the fact that he was taking a tithe of the captured geneseed for his own purposes.


I'm not really a fan of the sensei plots, but the starchild actually makes sense. I mean the chaos gods feed on emotion, devotion, and worship. So think how much the emp. recieves of this.

KMKhaine wrote:One of the resons GW has been around so long is because they don't do anything revolutionary every time the do a rulebook re-tool. Every ponce in a while they move things - it started essentually during the Heresy (Rogue Trader / Adeptus Mechanicus games). Moved forward - just a little in big story, had a fer story altering campaigns. Kill off a few characters, intriducer a few new races, shoehorned them into the storyline. But nothing big and revolutionary. Because it ain't broke. They make some dumb decisions from time to time but All and all keeping most of it the same is the key.

Believe me even the one off primarch scenarios from a few years back pet a fet of the High Lords of Workshop the wrong way. Don't ecpast anything super big to change.

Yep. GW fluff is *background*, not a *storyline.* Historicals wargaming has fixed history as its backdrop. Think of the GW fluff as our "history".

That being said, GW is blowing their opportunity to leverage the popularity of their HH books on the game and miniature side. I've said it countless times, but a HH supplement would be a gold mine for them...and maybe lure in readers of the books who aren't already playing 40K. And because it's in the "past," it's not like they're monkeying around with the "current" background and players' armies and fluff. But the idea seems completely off-limits to the studio, probably because of the unwritten law that "thou shalt not make miniatures or rules in the likeness of thine Primarchs."

Why they have weird rules like that, I dunno. You can't let strange hangups get in the way of an opportunity like that. Would anyone in their right mind say that Planetstrike would make a bigger splash than a HH supplement? GW really has some very strange quirks for a decent-sized company, which probably indicates the weirdness comes the top.

Lint wrote:

Zahaladeen wrote:
2. Abbaddon has not featured in any of the current Ultramarine novels.

Not personally, no. But the Iron Warrior lords referenced the Despoiler a few times, and the fact that he was taking a tithe of the captured geneseed for his own purposes.


I'm not really a fan of the sensei plots, but the starchild actually makes sense. I mean the chaos gods feed on emotion, devotion, and worship. So think how much the emp. recieves of this.

You're absolutely correct. And if it were not for the IW books or BFG works then we really wouldn't see much of Abbaddon, other than White Dwarf or other "fluff" works.

The starchild stuff makes sense, but I'm not sure it's exactly cannon. Though what qualifies as 40K cannon these days is disputable. Anything by Abnett and Co. would qualify, but you have to wonder what older books would make the cut.

Zahaladeen wrote:
You're absolutely correct. And if it were not for the IW books or BFG works then we really wouldn't see much of Abbaddon, other than White Dwarf or other "fluff" works.

The starchild stuff makes sense, but I'm not sure it's exactly cannon. Though what qualifies as 40K cannon these days is disputable. Anything by Abnett and Co. would qualify, but you have to wonder what older books would make the cut.

I think your missing the point if your debating whether it's cannon or not. The publications which it does feature in (inquisitor rulebook, xenology etc.) clearly have it down as a religious like prophecy within the 40k world, i.e. it's a theory with a cult like following. No where in any of them publications does it state whether it is correct or not.

I had to look, but I knew I remembered talking about Starchild on here before....


http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/221399.page

Apparently Realms of Chaos, and Inquisitor went into detail about Starchild, and the Sensei and all that. So until they say otherwise, I beleive it is still the official cannon. But with gw who knows?

focusedfire wrote:
Russ will return with the fruit from the tree of life but cannot fight his way to the emperor. Then Cypher will appear and be shown as the Hero Primarch Lion'el Johnson. He will free his father by slaying him with a shot from his Bolter and the is where it will end. The emperor dies and the galaxy at war. Or does he? Is the shot a Death Stroke or an injection from the Tree of Life?

Too bad GW raped that possibility by saying the Lion is in stasis inside The Rock. I actually believed Cypher to be The Lion for a while, but Gw has a way of ruining things.

They could just as easily find that they were wrong and Johnson is not there when they finally look through the whole thing.
Thats the one thing about fantasy saga. It's really hard to write yourself into a corner that you can't get out of.

Cypher is Johnson? erm I highly doubt it. Luther maybe, not Johnson. For one, if he was it would mean in the current game there is actually a miniature representing a primarch. One who's rules aren't very primarch like and neither is his height. The primarchs, by various gw fiction, are meant to have dwarfed the marines as much as marines dwarf humans; doesn't sound like cypher to me.

whatwhat wrote:Cypher is Johnson? erm I highly doubt it. Luther maybe, not Johnson. For one, if he was it would mean in the current game there is actually a miniature representing a primarch. One who's rules aren't very primarch like and neither is his height. The primarchs, by various gw fiction, are meant to have dwarfed the marines as much as marines dwarf humans; doesn't sound like cypher to me.

Well now Citadel isn't exactly knows for sticking to scale when it comes to their minis.

Still largely underwhelming for a primarch.

I'm still hoping that the Lion turns out to be a traitor, and Luther was the loyalist all along.
I fully believe cypher is loyal, but in an Alpha legion kind of way - so, loyal to humanity, rather than the Imperium.

It has been said that Cypher might be loyal in a similar way to istvaanian radical inquisitors, as described in the inquisitor rulebook. Basically they believe the imperium grows stronger through struggle and war. Which would fit with a loyal cypher.

Lint wrote:I'm still hoping that the Lion turns out to be a traitor, and Luther was the loyalist all along.
I fully believe cypher is loyal, but in an Alpha legion kind of way - so, loyal to humanity, rather than the Imperium.

A lot of DA players would collectively Sh*t a brick if this happened. I included.

Well Fallen Angels is only 3 months away so you don't have to wait too long to find out.

Cypher is neither Johnson, nor Luther. Official fluff places both firmly withing the Rock(Luther in the lowest prison, Johnson with the Watchers themselves).

That said, we also know that we'll never see Cypher and Luther forgiven, the Emperor awakened, or Russ and Johnson(and other Primarchs) returned, as the official fluff has it all happening at the Final Battle for Earth when the Phoenix Lords, Eldar, and Humanity will all come together for the final clash with Chaos in which the Eldar race is fated to end. If Gw ever does it, it will be because they're scrapping the game all together.

whatwhat wrote:

Zahaladeen wrote:
You're absolutely correct. And if it were not for the IW books or BFG works then we really wouldn't see much of Abbaddon, other than White Dwarf or other "fluff" works.

The starchild stuff makes sense, but I'm not sure it's exactly cannon. Though what qualifies as 40K cannon these days is disputable. Anything by Abnett and Co. would qualify, but you have to wonder what older books would make the cut.

I think your missing the point if your debating whether it's cannon or not. The publications which it does feature in (inquisitor rulebook, xenology etc.) clearly have it down as a religious like prophecy within the 40k world, i.e. it's a theory with a cult like following. No where in any of them publications does it state whether it is correct or not.

Not debating cannon.

Your not? ok.

Zahaladeen wrote:The starchild stuff makes sense, but I'm not sure it's exactly cannon. Though what qualifies as 40K cannon these days is disputable. Anything by Abnett and Co. would qualify, but you have to wonder what older books would make the cut.

whatwhat wrote:Your not? ok.

Zahaladeen wrote:The starchild stuff makes sense, but I'm not sure it's exactly cannon. Though what qualifies as 40K cannon these days is disputable. Anything by Abnett and Co. would qualify, but you have to wonder what older books would make the cut.

Still not debating cannon, though I saw what you did there.

Platuan4th wrote:Cypher is neither Johnson, nor Luther. Official fluff places both firmly withing the Rock(Luther in the lowest prison, Johnson with the Watchers themselves).

That said, we also know that we'll never see Cypher and Luther forgiven, the Emperor awakened, or Russ and Johnson(and other Primarchs) returned, as the official fluff has it all happening at the Final Battle for Earth when the Phoenix Lords, Eldar, and Humanity will all come together for the final clash with Chaos in which the Eldar race is fated to end. If Gw ever does it, it will be because they're scrapping the game all together.

Actually with the newer prohecies of an eldar death goddess and the concept of an eldar ghost race it isn't to far fetched. They wouldn't have to scap the game. It would be some new codices and a slight renaming of the Eldar. Not to mention the exodite worlds. I, personally think that when GW does actually advance the story line it will advance only a tick and end on a cliffhanger of something momentous just occuring.

Yeah the "final Battle" could last as long as they wanted. Hell, 39999.99 has lasted for the past 20 years

I think maybe the whole 'StarChild' thing carries some weight...

Cypher will be the catalyst to it. The Lion will re-awaken due to the Watchers being made (by means of immaterium) aware of the Emperor's reincarnation or return to form. He will listen to Luthers babblings for forgiveness, then The Lion will shoot him in the face and say 'Such is the fate of all Traitors'. He then makes his journey homeward...

Meanwhile, Khan and The Wolf will both return at round about the same time, thus a whole HH 31st mil nostalgia will be evoked, as this time the Khan will be able to assist the Wolf as they are pursued by unknown assailants as they make their way toward Terra, Terra of course, is now run by both the righteous and corrupt, the whole utopian ideals of the emperor are locked in a to-and-fro political battle...which evetually we will discover that Alpharius is trying to put right through use of his famous fighting style, subterfuge.

This then leads us to the zealous, if a little uncharismatic form of Roboute Guilliman, who upon awakening learns with zeal, the state the Imperium has been in since his Fulgrim-induced nap...with this he too hot-foots it to Terra, just in time to see that his most hated brother, Alpharius, has indeed been busy putting the High Lords of Terra back on the straight and narrow, using all the organisation skills that Guilliman is famed for...they meet, Alpharius looking his brother straight in the eye and says "This is for Father"...they burst into tears and the two embrace. As the two show their outward affection, the Khan and the Wolf pull up, seeing that the Imperiums most stallwart protector is up and running they approach and remark "Roboute, thats not like you...to hug a man...especially Mr Twinface", Roboute replies "Brothers, I have been away for too long...now is the RIGHT time", the Wolf feeling all overcome with good ol' Norse kinsmanship remarks "Well now you've recovered from Fulgrims lovebite, and you Alpharius have made your mind up about who you're fighting with and against there's only one thing left to do....."

the Khan with a slightly confused look on his face, asks "oh Brother...and what would that be..."

"Whyyyyy to the Tavern!!" muses Leman,

"Nothing...ever...changes, always thinking with your stomach", came a voice from the shadows, the gathered brother Primarchs turned toward the source of the voice, with this a small hooded figure approached from one of the darker corners of the courtyard they were gathered in.

"Ah ha!", shouted Leman, "I'll do you the honour of giving your servant the return punch I owe you, shall I Lion?"

The imposing form of Lion El'Jonson, Primarch of the Dark Angels emerged from the shadows, "My 'servant' was keen to see what remained of your bruising brother"

Alpharius and Khan regarded Russ immeadiately, and nearly swallowed their tongues as they saw their brothers face accomodate the most enormous grin they'd ever seen.

The foursome swiftly burst into rapturous laughter, the sound of which could easily give the noise marines of Slaanesh something to consider on the field of battle.

With this the four Brothers decided they'd raise what loyal Chapters they could from the comm arrays stationed on Terra.

In the coming months, there would be alot of communication across the galaxy, Russ, Jonson and Khan were just greatful for Alpharius' ever revealed resourcefulness as he'd informed them that he had agents working inside the comm networks, which in turn meant they wouldn't be charged premium rates for their gratuitous use of the comm arrays.

COMING SOON....

Vulkan and Corax homeward bound!

ginric99 wrote:there is anouther possibility, which is that the Emperor is actually an old one. and planned the whole thing himself. Either way C'tan will be the big bad guys of the 42nd millenium.

If it doesn't happen that way, i'm going to cry.
And then weep.
That was soooooo awesome.
It perfectly fits in with everything in the 40k universe

GW is taking the storyline to its inevitable conclusion: Orks win.

Dashofpepper wrote:GW is taking the storyline to its inevitable conclusion: Orks win.

Oh, they win what exactly?

Insight in their wrong ways?
Experience points?
A dinner for two?

1hadhq wrote:

Dashofpepper wrote:GW is taking the storyline to its inevitable conclusion: Orks win.

Oh, they win what exactly?

Insight in their wrong ways?
Experience points?
A dinner for two?

I reckon a dinner for two, it'll be a first time we'll see the female of the ork species!!! What a groundbreaker!!!

gorgon wrote:That being said, GW is blowing their opportunity to leverage the popularity of their HH books on the game and miniature side. I've said it countless times, but a HH supplement would be a gold mine for them...and maybe lure in readers of the books who aren't already playing 40K. And because it's in the "past," it's not like they're monkeying around with the "current" background and players' armies and fluff. But the idea seems completely off-limits to the studio, probably because of the unwritten law that "thou shalt not make miniatures or rules in the likeness of thine Primarchs."

/agree 90%. The Primarchs thing I don't really care about... make them or not, it doesn't matter to me in the slightest. But you are correct about the goldmine that's the HH, even if it isn't a "Warhammer 30K" supplement. They are missing out on a goldmine of "Heresy-Era" bits packs and models.

I tend to also agree that GW won't move the fluff that much further forward (note that Mankind still exists in the 42nd millenium - look at Sulla's reports in the Ciaphas Cain novels, all from the 1st century of M42). There won't be any huge fluff-altering thing, it will remain status quo. They might alow the Dragon to awaken, or nearly awaken, and have the schism that was discussed before in this thread between the Imperium and Mechanicus take shape, but nothing that has to do with the Emperor.

So, in order for the game to be fresh, they're going to have to do more "historical" stuff.

I really, really think that the head-honchos at GW made a huge mistake in not aligning their release schedules for their models and their novels, let alone other supplements that are 3rd party (DH, RT, etc.). They've missed the boat on capitalizing on the Horus Heresy. That series is really rather far in right now, book-wise, and there could have been no end of models released from each. Bitz packs of shoulder pads and bolters and archaic chain weapons... Mk 2, 3, 4, and 5 armour... and special characters galore.

Some simple alignment of their release schedules would help their bottom line, I think.

Well, most of the GW game designers have studied literature or arts; there are not so many scientists there.

Lint wrote:The emp will die, but everything is still going according to his plan.

You mean it'll be...Just as planned?


NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO!!!!!!!!!! (Universe rips itself apart as it is realised that the emprah is just as big a d!ck as Eldrad.

Lint, nothing is going to the plan of the emperor!

For one...there's an inquisition...this is NOT what the Emperor had planned...as insane as it sounds...read 'The Last Church' in Tales of Heresy...then you'll see what I mean.

Of course there are those factions that ultimately remain faithful to the Emperors ideal...

There are horrible, inconcieveable problems with the 40k generation marines...for example...in Heart of Rage the audiobook, the sm character refers to the Emperor as the 'god-emperor'...THAT is not what he wanted.

There is in fighting with 'loyalists' as there are with chaos. The whole thing is a glorius mess and the only way to ensure your survival is to be a pragmatic.

I long for the days where in 30k it was obvious which side you wer on...things were alot simpler...but that is not 40k's nature as we all know.

The most disgusting thing is Terra is now run by horrible politicians, who bend and warp the imperium to their will...I think in alot of ways Terra has become segragated in it's own right. I mean the custodians are now wandering around mainly naked and exuding moodiness...no longer the walking beams of the Emperors will and ideals that they once wer, they're probably cordened off near the emperor and kept away from the rest of Terra LOL

Times have changed beyond what the Emperor sought in the days of the Great Crusade.

And that is the biggest shame. And it is shame that is ultimately realised in the novel Legion.

I want to see the second great schism in the Empire. It needs to happen eventually. I know it probably won't. But after a few more price hikes GW might need something to pull old players who quit back in. Maybe they will do it by actually shaking things around.

I don't know if that will ever happen. But if I'd been playing this game since Rogue Trader and seen such little change in the game world I probably would have quit by now. If I don't see change in the game world in the next ten years, I might be out of here too come to think of it.

Regardless of any of that though,