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Oxfordseth wrote:GW used to do their best to avoid putting out lists with units they did not have plans to make miniatures for, but this last year the studio decided to not worry about whether there is plans for miniatures and give people cool rules and a chance for conversions.

Personally I like the this idea.

I'm ambivalent about it myself. I'm still waiting for those daemons from the Daemon codex. Not announcing whether daemonic HQs will ever be released or plastic horrors for example, doesn't really encourage me to look at the army as one I'd play.

I don't understand how not releasing models in the codex will encourage new players. I would think new players would be turned off by not being able to play what is in the codex and leave the game earlier. I hope GW has market research to prove that wrong.

Someone said that the new system is to avoid broken promises. Well, my response is straightforward- they shouldn't have broken the damn promises in the first place!

PP are able to give a solid release schedule and miniature for every entry. GW not being able to do the same is a joke.

As for the "don't play tyranids" argument, I won't be playing tyranids, don't worry. But it doesn't stop me being irritated by GWs stupid decisions.

Kilkrazy wrote:People don't have to play Nids.

Well then I guess I'm shelving my Nid army.

Kilkrazy wrote:The organic look of Tyranids lends itself to freehand sculpting of new bits so it should not be too difficult to make some of these items which are lacking.

I have no skill with sculpting, and I really have no desire to learn.

Doesn't this really all fall under the classification of "whining"?

If you want to play nids in it's current state you play with what's available or you convert.

Isn't it really that simple?

GG

Some of the whine in this thread about 'having to convert' models is beyond ridiculous. I think the new style army books with tons of legal units are absolutely fantastic, whether the units have models or not. Anyone remember the old Eldar codex where you had army list entries for stuff like Exodite Dragon Riders? Good times.

I guess some people are simply playing the wrong game. This is a modelling and painting hobby first and a gaming hobby second. Sometimes I wish it wasn't, since I'm not very artistic and I've comissioned paint jobs for a few armies already, but that's the hard truth. It's also the hard truth that most people stay in this hobby for the imaginative background material and those painting and modelling options, not because the rules for the games would be somehow fantastic or even competitive. If you can't figure out how to get a few bone swords for your Tyrant without buying a plastic kit or even worse a pre-painted rubber toy soldier that's ready straight ouf the box you're simply playing the wrong game. I'll give you a tip however, either order the bitz from the magical interweb, do a bitz swap with some other hobbyist, use bitz of other things like scythes as counts-as weapons, or cut a few sword-like pieces out of plasticard which is very economically priced. This isn't even a hard one and you don't need to do any sculpting.

Anyway, I know people are different, but I can say that my best friend is starting Tyranids now for the first time simply because now they offer so many chances for kit-bashing and converting and have tons of variant and exotic creatures and army lists. To each their own.

generalgrog wrote:Doesn't this really all fall under the classification of "whining"?

If you want to play nids in it's current state you play with what's available or you convert.

Isn't it really that simple?

GG

So what if it is?

If that's the current state for the Nids then I, personally, don't like it.

The one problem I had with the dex on the issue of converting is that...if it is so easy to make a tyranofex or tervigon with a trygon and fex kit, then why didn't they convert and paint one and put it in the codex? If they at least had a pic of a converted model instead of the vague pictures in their entry then at least we all would have a slight standard as to what they would look like or what we can try instead of just saying "buy two $50 kits and make it".

1.) You don't HAVE to take the units that currently have no model, there are enough other good units.
2.) Even with low converting skills it is quite easy to find more or less fitting, mostly non-GW alternatives. Tervigon (Armorcast Malefactor, FW Hierodule, Horrorclix Alien Queen with birthing sac, Carnifex on talons with a big belly),etc. There are some ideas in this thread already.
3.) It leaves room for a second wave and marks a departure of the former one-release-per-gamer-generation-policy. It also leaves room for conversion articles in WD.
4.) It is better to include nice rules without models than just leaving those cool ideas out of the Codex.
5.) Building and painting is part of the hobby. Some challenges are for beginners (snap-fit), some for advanced modellers (Harlequin). Conversions are a way to improve your hobby skills. If you don't like conversions at all, see above.

Vengis wrote:

Kilkrazy wrote:People don't have to play Nids.

Well then I guess I'm shelving my Nid army.

Kilkrazy wrote:The organic look of Tyranids lends itself to freehand sculpting of new bits so it should not be too difficult to make some of these items which are lacking.

I have no skill with sculpting, and I really have no desire to learn.

During the ACW, President Lincoln once sent a telegram to General McClellan of the Army Of The Potomac to say if the General was not using the army for a while he would like to borrow it.

Eh, it just leaves room for us small hobbyist-ran companies to fill in the gaps..

Patience goes a long way though, since we are not GW with thier army of slaves, er sculptors.

Believe me, give it 1-2 months and there will be tons of boen swords, heads, and conversion kits to make your favorite monstrous creature.

Nick

Da Boss wrote:Someone said that the new system is to avoid broken promises. Well, my response is straightforward- they shouldn't have broken the damn promises in the first place!

PP are able to give a solid release schedule and miniature for every entry. GW not being able to do the same is a joke.

As for the "don't play tyranids" argument, I won't be playing tyranids, don't worry. But it doesn't stop me being irritated by GWs stupid decisions.

Put simply:
Privateer doesn't release nearly as much plastic/metal as GW does with a single year's release, and it shows. Privateer also runs the old model that GW used, where you end up waiting and waiting for that single wave of releases...and then get nothing until the next expansion/edition.

And that's not counting the times where it's just a change to the product code or reboxing an older kit with new sprues.

Kilkrazy wrote:

During the ACW, President Lincoln once sent a telegram to General McClellan of the Army Of The Potomac to say if the General was not using the army for a while he would like to borrow it.

I'd rather burn my Nids than give/sell them to someone like you who wants to tell me how I should enjoy my hobby.

Why wasn't this a huge issue during the 10 year ork run of no vehicles?

ShumaGorath wrote:Why wasn't this a huge issue during the 10 year ork run of no vehicles?

C'mon Shuma, it's because Orks are supposed to make everything from random junk!

Kanluwen wrote:

ShumaGorath wrote:Why wasn't this a huge issue during the 10 year ork run of no vehicles?

C'mon Shuma, it's because Orks are supposed to make everything from random junk!

because they want you to buy more land raiders and make them into battle wagons!

Kurgash wrote:

Kanluwen wrote:

ShumaGorath wrote:Why wasn't this a huge issue during the 10 year ork run of no vehicles?

C'mon Shuma, it's because Orks are supposed to make everything from random junk!

because they want you to buy more land raiders and make them into battle wagons!

They, still want us to do this now, to some extent. There isnt a model for the Looted Wagon, after all.

Jeezy Chreezy I haven't heard this much whining since we last had a thread on the Chaos Marines Codex.

Every codex has unit entries or options with no models. I swear if GW had released a Nids codex with no new units people would still be bitching that there was nothing new. T-Fexes, Tervigons, etc are all options, you don't have to take them to use the new Nid codex, your Carnifexes and Hive Tyrants still work fine. Just be patient and GW will give you your new bugs. We all know GW likes to make money, do you really think they aren't going to release T-fex and Tervigon models?

Ozymandias wrote:
Every codex has unit entries or options with no models. I swear if GW had released a Nids codex with no new units people would still be bitching that there was nothing new.

Actually my Necron codex is well represented with a model for all 11 unit types. I appreciate the support my army of choice has gotten from GW. I don't have to worry about waiting for new models, upgrades or any of that nonsense. Heck... all my Elite, Troops, FA, and Heavy units only get one weapon choice too. Awesome. GW rocks the old codexes hard. I completely agree with the OP that they should not release new codexes with variety and depth and cool Azz stuff without any thought to the guys that want everything RIGHT NOW. It just is a poor business model.

I can't think of anything my Tau army has in the codex that isn't available on the rack.

Dal'yth Dude wrote:I can't think of anything my Tau army has in the codex that isn't available on the rack.

Shield drones. Oh, you meant inside of other boxes too. It probably helps that the tau book has been out for years.

ShumaGorath wrote:Why wasn't this a huge issue during the 10 year ork run of no vehicles?

It was a huge issue. It's still a minor issue.
If you check my old posts, you'll see I wasn't happy with that situation either.

As for people telling me what my hobby is, cheers. You'll note I don't do the same when you guys complain about aspects of the game you find annoying. I'm pretty disgusted with the attitude on here.

jgemrich wrote:

Ozymandias wrote:
Every codex has unit entries or options with no models. I swear if GW had released a Nids codex with no new units people would still be bitching that there was nothing new.

Actually my Necron codex is well represented with a model for all 11 unit types. I appreciate the support my army of choice has gotten from GW. I don't have to worry about waiting for new models, upgrades or any of that nonsense. Heck... all my Elite, Troops, FA, and Heavy units only get one weapon choice too. Awesome. GW rocks the old codexes hard. I completely agree with the OP that they should not release new codexes with variety and depth and cool Azz stuff without any thought to the guys that want everything RIGHT NOW. It just is a poor business model.

Lucky! I wish my army was so old it was barely competitive anymore. Luckily Eldar will always be competitive, right?....right?

Which is of course your point. They complain about not getting models while you haven't had a codex in what? I mean think of poor DE...

Oh and I should point out- I have no problem with the wave system, if everything gets released inside a timeframe GW lay out for me. If they tell me "Wave 2 is this time next year!" I'm happy, as long as they stick to that. Leaving it open ended is where my issue is.

ShumaGorath wrote:

Dal'yth Dude wrote:I can't think of anything my Tau army has in the codex that isn't available on the rack.

Shield drones. Oh, you meant inside of other boxes too. It probably helps that the tau book has been out for years.

Actually, what I meant is I can buy shield drones as they are actually made by GW. In fact, that and the hammerhead sprue is the only Tau bitz GW deigns to sell.

Newness of a codex doesn't really matter either. How long did it take to get GW marine drop pods and official wave serpents?

Dal'yth Dude wrote:

ShumaGorath wrote:

Dal'yth Dude wrote:I can't think of anything my Tau army has in the codex that isn't available on the rack.

Shield drones. Oh, you meant inside of other boxes too. It probably helps that the tau book has been out for years.

Actually, what I meant is I can buy shield drones as they are actually made by GW. In fact, that and the hammerhead sprue is the only Tau bitz GW deigns to sell.

Newness of a codex doesn't really matter either. How long did it take to get GW marine drop pods and official wave serpents?

Codex newness isn't the argument. Nid players now have an updated codex yay! But it's missing some models?! Screw it don't play nids. Whereas Necrons have 100% of the models they can field! Yes! Oh wait... they are so far behind it doesnt matter that they have models. Screw it don't play necrons. A necron player would very likely rather see a new 'dex with 10 new, modelless units and updated rules than have all their units represented but be stuck in older editions (Necron players if I'm wrong let me know).

Hopefully there will be updates in the future, but since it is has not been announced by GW, I doubt any models will emerge for many years.

This annoys me, I can understand how some people would not mind, as they are skilled in converting/ able to spend enormous amounts of money on bits.

All in all, the buck has been passed onto the gamers, which I find to be exceptionally annoying. The attitude of 'Convert or GTFO' IS a particularly offensive attitude. It is not as if people can't do it, just many are limited in ways that basically defeat the purpose from the start. I for one, have never been a fan of the idea that I would chop an expensive model up (with what BTW, a freaking razor-handsaw? Or should people just drop a few hundred more on advanced tools, BEFORE they even start a 200$ conversion?) and run the risk of not having the skills to make a nice conversion, leaving me with a garbled pile of bitz.

If anything, I expect smaller companies to fill many of these gaps, but I am simply not convinced that they will be able to do it at a reasonable cost. Not to say that there would not be options, just that you would not actually be saving all that much overall.

I do agree that it would be nice to see more conversions and creativity in the hobby, but I would never REQUIRE it of anyone, it is their hobby too.

The only sense I can make out of all of this, is that GW is focusing on their other lines, and Tyranids are simply going to take a backseat to the next few codices to come out. Unfortunately, this does mean a lot of Nid players, simply are not going to have effective means of actually playing their games. I hope that people will give enough wiggle room to the Nid players, so they can actually be able to use the entire codex. Try and be flexible on the proxies, and help your fellow hobbyists enjoy their games, because GW sure as hell isn't trying.

Wrexasaur wrote:The only sense I can make out of all of this, is that GW is focusing on their other lines, and Tyranids are simply going to take a backseat to the next few codices to come out.

This happens all the time. GW's primary marketing drive for Planetstrike, for example, was over in the space of about two weeks.

Well as was previously mentioned, Proxies (while not working out so well in tournaments) are just fine for a friendly game. And I'm sure if they are not up already guides for converting a Zoanthrope to say a Doom of Malan'tai are just around the corner, probably offering easy/cheap ways to do it. (GW guides or third party, w/e)

I also understand the argument for more models, but in all reality (as was previously mentioned) the hobby aspect of 40K kind of overrides the game aspect in many people's eyes. Me? I love painting and I want to get into modelling, but I also want to play with my creations rather than let them get dusty on a shelf so I can kind of see both sides. I don't know, just my two cents.

CrazyThang wrote:I also understand the argument fro more models, but in all reality (as was previously mentioned) the hobby aspect of 40K kind of overrides the game aspect in many people's eyes. Me? I love painting and I want to get into modelling, but I also want to play with my creations rather than let them get dusty on a shelf so I can kind of see both sides. I don't know, just my two cents.

There are many aspects to wargaming as an entire hobby. Most associate painting, directly with the hobby aspect. Many, many, many others, are not interested in converting/ sculpting/ scratch-building/ whatever you want to call 'making your own models'. This is my favorite part of the hobby, and I am teaching my self to sculpt at smaller scales because: I can, I want to, and I enjoy it. I hope to create various, fully envisioned, 'alternative counts as armies', so that I can contribute something back to the community.

That said though, 'demanding' more than painting from a fellow gamer, is ridiculous in my eyes, to say the least. In general, I would consider highly converted armies to always be the exception, and in no way the rule. It takes enough time as it is for a person to paint a large army as it is(minimum of 20 hours in general, not counting assembly), without asking thrice that for advanced converting. Besides being well beyond many peoples means/ skillsets, it sets an elite standard, that is bound to drive many people away from the hobby, entirely. Why would someone with little skills in converting, spend time on both that, AND painting, whilst they could save all that time invested (most of which they were not interested in from the beginning), just buying a few new video games instead?

I could hardly blame someone leaving the hobby, because they enjoy gaming, and not collecting.

Not trying to bite your face off, I know you were just putting this out there.

AHHH my face!

But yeah I see what you mean and like I said, "the hobby aspect overrides... in many people's eyes...", not necessarily mine. If someone came up to me and said "Well you can't play because your Spinnerette Rifle is just a starcannon glued to an exarch it needs to be modelled to look exactly like it should!" yes I would not be happy with that.
Example: my friend forgot his chappy at home. Rather than make him go get it, I let him borrow a DA I wasn't using, I didn't care. We had a fun game that was not at all hindered by his lack of chappy.

Rambling aside: The point I am trying to make is that the game is still fun! Sure I want to see my opponents fully painted/customed army but if they are using all grey space marines I won't care (and this should honestly be the general attitude I mean lets all just have fun in our own way without ruining other's fun yeah?). Man now you have, like, 4 of my cents.