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Yeah, that's the argument that's under debate (and clearly something that must be Errata'd).

The arguments are three-fold, it seems:

1) According to strict RAW of Speed of Asuryan, "All High Elf units have ASF, regardless of weapon used". This sort of suggests that they still have ASF with GW's since rules in AB's trump BRB (usually).

2) Reading new ASF + ASL rules, High Elves with GW's have their ASF is completely cancelled out with ASL and so merely fight in I order, no re-rolls.

3) And this is the touchier subject - ASF + ASL mitigate eachother such that HE's fight in I order, however, ASF + >=I is STILL effective, allowing re-rolls.

I don't really mind case 1) being ruled out.

The distinction between 2) and 3) I see as being pretty important.

Ixquic wrote:...Treeman Ancient isn't that great now anyway....

Is there some strategy that got nerfed with the Treeman Ancient that I missed?

I'm just getting into Warhammer Fantasy, but it seems to me that the Annoyance of Nesting on a Treeman Ancient rocks, especially now that the outnumber combat res mod was done away with.
So in any combat with the treeman vs. a large unit, he could challenge any champion, then either smoosh him or cause him to sit uselessly in the back.
or is there something wrong with this assumption?

Tree singing just isn't that great since everyone can just saunter through forests now and your own just can't hide inside nearly as well so his two bound spells are meh. Level 4 casters are MUCH MUCH more important now and he eats up a good deal of that Lord allowance. With tons more attacks on him it will be easier to sneak in wounds and everyone knows to refuse challenges against him. Everyone is also stubborn against him being he's a single model. He's not BAD, but there are probably better uses of his points.

You can make a character almost as good out of the rule book magic items with the duelist sword (WS10) and some item that makes you -1 to hit and doesn't require challenges.

So wait..... for army composition it's 25% for ALL rare, heroes and lords combined? Or 25% each?

Each.

reds8n wrote:Thanks to Mr. Scryer in the darkness for the pic.

Demons also get a release of their spells sooner rather than later. This is a limited release, as will they all be AFAIK.

Badass, mate, thanks.

Necros wrote:So wait..... for army composition it's 25% for ALL rare, heroes and lords combined? Or 25% each?

Jin wrote:Each

oh wait, so the old restricitons remain, like 1 lord, 3-0 heros, 3+ core etc etc. but now you can't have one lord that is more then 25% of your points. Am I getting this right?

No, the old restrictions are gone. You just go by the percentages.

oh okay, I read that wrong.
so it's its 25% lords + heros, 25% core, 50% special and 25% rare.

right?

Or is it 25% max lord, 25% max hero, 25% max rare, 50% max special ... and did I read somewhere it was 50% minimum for core?

I hate math.

25% max for Lords
25% max for Heroes (that's right, EACH)
25% MIN for Core
50% max Special
25% max Rare

Additional caveats that you can take a max of 3 repeat choice in Specials and a max of 2 repeat choices Rares (any 2-for-1 options count as '1' choice) for games up to 3k.

I wonder how much this new design paradigm will influence the next 40K.

Jin wrote:Yeah, that's the argument that's under debate (and clearly something that must be Errata'd).

The arguments are three-fold, it seems:

1) According to strict RAW of Speed of Asuryan, "All High Elf units have ASF, regardless of weapon used". This sort of suggests that they still have ASF with GW's since rules in AB's trump BRB (usually).

2) Reading new ASF + ASL rules, High Elves with GW's have their ASF is completely cancelled out with ASL and so merely fight in I order, no re-rolls.

3) And this is the touchier subject - ASF + ASL mitigate eachother such that HE's fight in I order, however, ASF + >=I is STILL effective, allowing re-rolls.

I don't really mind case 1) being ruled out.

The distinction between 2) and 3) I see as being pretty important.

Jin - from what I recall of the Always Strikes Last rule is that it basically takes away Always Strikes First. So you wouldn't have ASF anymore - if that is the wording it kinda takes care of 1 and 3, no? I will doublecheck tomorrow though as I'm headed down to the GW store. (You should stop by!)

@Killjoy - Yeah, that's my question. The Ulthuan.net guys are squabbling quite a bit about it. It's a subtle but big difference.

I'm sure 1) is not gonna be the ruling in the end and its loss won't be terrible. I'll have to take a break from my painting spree to stop by to look at the rules myself tomorrow. What time you planning on heading down there?

Caleb and I are going to head down at noon I think. There's a 40k tourney rd 2 that we are going to try (my 3rd game of 40k ever).

So we will be there for a bit.

Jin wrote:Yeah, that's the argument that's under debate (and clearly something that must be Errata'd).

The arguments are three-fold, it seems:

1) According to strict RAW of Speed of Asuryan, "All High Elf units have ASF, regardless of weapon used". This sort of suggests that they still have ASF with GW's since rules in AB's trump BRB (usually).

2) Reading new ASF + ASL rules, High Elves with GW's have their ASF is completely cancelled out with ASL and so merely fight in I order, no re-rolls.

3) And this is the touchier subject - ASF + ASL mitigate eachother such that HE's fight in I order, however, ASF + >=I is STILL effective, allowing re-rolls.

I don't really mind case 1) being ruled out.

The distinction between 2) and 3) I see as being pretty important.

From reading the book (which I may or may not have right next to me) any rule, barring Army Selection in the new rulebook loses precedence to those in the current batch of Army Books. Ergo, 1) Is the natural conclusion to draw, as the High Elf book has decreed that for them, ASF ignores ASL where it stems from weapon equipped.

Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:

Jin wrote:Yeah, that's the argument that's under debate (and clearly something that must be Errata'd).

The arguments are three-fold, it seems:

1) According to strict RAW of Speed of Asuryan, "All High Elf units have ASF, regardless of weapon used". This sort of suggests that they still have ASF with GW's since rules in AB's trump BRB (usually).

2) Reading new ASF + ASL rules, High Elves with GW's have their ASF is completely cancelled out with ASL and so merely fight in I order, no re-rolls.

3) And this is the touchier subject - ASF + ASL mitigate eachother such that HE's fight in I order, however, ASF + >=I is STILL effective, allowing re-rolls.

I don't really mind case 1) being ruled out.

The distinction between 2) and 3) I see as being pretty important.

From reading the book (which I may or may not have right next to me) any rule, barring Army Selection in the new rulebook loses precedence to those in the current batch of Army Books. Ergo, 1) Is the natural conclusion to draw, as the High Elf book has decreed that for them, ASF ignores ASL where it stems from weapon equipped.

Actually it quotes that the high elf UNIT has ASF. That does not change that a GW allways strikes last even slightly. There is no wording to be confused on. The unit has ASF bonus the weapon has ASL bonus. Therefore you should just assume you have both and so you strike at initiative.

Right. I think that high elf says "ASF regardless of weapon." So they have ASF regardless of using great weapons. Great weapons doesn't mean they don't have ASF, it just also gives them ASL. It just so happens that ASF and ASL together mean initiative order, no reroll.

Must admit that reading all the rules changes makes me more likely to play the new WFB - I like premeasuring and getting rid of Guess weapons is fine by me - saw too many people playing on specific sized baords knowing the exact range.

hmm if the started set is as awesome as Black Reach I may be buying a couple (depending on races)

Expect it to be better matey. Battle for Skull Pass is noticably better packed than Macragge was, and in terms of models, Black Reach beats the snot out of Skull Pass.

Thusly, it would appear that we can expect fantastic models from the Starter Set, weeing all over the Black Reach ones, until 40k gets a new one (probably a couple of years yet I'd expect!)

And Pip.....High Elves do not strictly have ASF. They have Speed of Asuryan, a superior version which grants ASF, regardless of weapon wielded. Thus Swordmasters and White Lions still benefit from ASF. I have both books. This is clear. There is no room for debate.

Also, White Lion Chariots have just got harder. Great Weapons now grant a static +2S, regardless of foot or mounted!

Excellent - I was not impressed with the Skull Pass ones - but Black Reach was stunning - followed by Space Hulk - lovely!

Just need to cross my fingers its races i like (I hear its Skaven and Elves - which works well for me (only Dark Elves and Vampires would have been more welcome).

Terminus wrote:I wonder how much this new design paradigm will influence the next 40K.

Same question here. Mostly I want to see pre-measuring, because it'd help solve some of the cheating problems.

That's pretty close to the top of my list as well.

What kind of LOS system does 8th use?

TLOS. If you can see the chest or head, shoot/hit it.

So basically the same as 40k. That's probably here to stay in 40k too, then.

No more seeing units of Ogres hiding behind units of gnoblars...

Mick

Maybe they could sew them into gnoblar armor instead.

Melissia wrote:Maybe they could sew them into gnoblar armor instead.

Now theres a conversion idea...

Mick

So, something else I was thinking of for my skinks, or I guess any ranked unit that shoots like handgunners or whatever..

skinks can shoot javelins 12" now right? And with things fighting in 2 ranks, does that mean both ranks can toss their javelins? And then if I have a horde of em that's 10+ models wide, 3 ranks can throw em? 30 poison javelins in the air sounds like fun to me

may be getting rid of a lot of blowpipes if that's how it works.

Mick A wrote:No more seeing units of Ogres hiding behind units of gnoblars...

Mick

Well, those gnoblars will probably provide hard cover to the ogres- which will be a -2 modifier to hit! It specifically lists "other models" as one of the things that provides "hard cover" (as opposed to soft cover, which is -1 to hit). So I think you will see units of Ogres hiding behind gnoblars now more than ever! Especially with the extra rare units that will be coming out now... lots of artillery.

About the whole Treeman Ancient debate- I think he'll still have his uses, and I'll certainly still be taking one! The annoyance of nettlings really helps take on big opposing characters! Also, imho he definitely won't be counting towards both your Lord and Rare percentages- I'm sure that will be errata'ed. I am wondering if he will count as a "duplicate unit" with a normal treeman (and thus only allow you to take one other treeman, rather than two). I doubt it, though... hopefully he'll just count as Lord and that's that.

Treesinging is weaker, but skirmishers are stubborn in woods, so it still helps to put some dryads in there and move it around, imho. That's what I'll be doing with my magic! It's either that, or take a level 4 caster (to get acces to lore of life/beasts in the rulebook). But I'd rather just stick with using the PD generated by winds of magic to cast the bound treesinging spells for my treemen. So no extra points put into magic to get PD (and also none for DD, since they both are generated automatically), which saves me points from 7th, but treesinging can only buff my own skirmishers, or hurt opposing models that venture inside woods. I kind of like it... but it definitely means I won't be going on offense with magic. To do so requires a significant investment in a level 4 caster, and that just doesn't fit my army.

Here comes the trees, baby!