Fantasy 8th Edition - Few Big Changes Confirmed

Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you:

No adverts like this in the forums anymore.
Times and dates in your local timezone.
Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance.
Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely.
Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net.

If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

**Killjoy00**

Well I think in general it was hard for WE to go offensive on magic.

Another thing I was thinking re: WE is that people will be more likely to go into forests with their troops now and hopefully get hit by treesinging. It was always such slow moving area that most non-skirmirshers steered clear, regardless of treesinging.

I actually think that "counts as both" units will come out of both allowances. That's the closest to how it works now. That's how I'd play it, but of course, just speculation for now.

**sexiest_hero**

If i'm reading this right, you could take 1 really expensive hero or about 6 cheap ones in a 2500 point game?

**Platuan4th**

sexiest_hero wrote:If i'm reading this right, you could take 1 really expensive hero or about 6 cheap ones in a 2500 point game?

Correct.

**Polonius**

Yay for Empire! Nothing like 3 cannon and 3 Mortars in 2000pts, plus a bunch of characters...

**Pip**

Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:They have Speed of Asuryan, a superior version which grants ASF, regardless of weapon wielded. Thus Swordmasters and White Lions still benefit from ASF. I have both books. This is clear. There is no room for debate.

There is obviously room for debate that is why it is being heavily debated. And once again the rule states that the elves have ASF whatever weapon they are using; not that it prevents the weapon having ASL. So the elves have one rule and the weapon the other.

**Mad Doc Grotsnik**

Wrong matey.

As I said, Speed of Asuryan IS NOT ASF in itself. It grantd ASF, plus the further bonus of ignoring drawbacks to weapons. It is there in black and white. There is no room for debate, but there will always be room for wishful thinking.

**Killjoy00**

I have the HE book and I don't think it as clear cut as that.

The HE book reads:

"All High Elves have the special rule 'Always strikes first', regardless of the weapon they are wielding. See the main rulebook for details of this special rule."

In 8th edition, and again, this is from memory, great weapons now grant the rule "Always strikes last."

I think there is very much room for debate (and the fact that multiple people are disagreeing with you should show that you are wrong, at least as far as "there is no room for debate.")

Speed of Asuryan grants the model ASF, regardless of weapon used. Therefore, whether you have great weapons or hand weapons, you have Always strikes first. Great weapons grants the model ASL. Now the model has Always strikes first and Always strikes last. Speed of Asuryan tells us nothing about what to do in this situation. Speed has granted it ASF, regardless of its weapon.

But now the 8th edition rules say that if a model has ASF (which it does) and ASL (which it does) then it strikes in normal initiative order.

To think about it in a different way, if some weapon said "removes ASF and grants ASL" - then another model with that weapon and with "normal ASF" (not Speed) would actually not strike in initiative order. It would strike last. But Speed of Asuryan would allow the model to ignore the "remove ASF" part of the rule and strike at initiative order.

**Therion**

I'm with Grotsnik on this one. You're choosing to ignore the 'regardless of weapon used' part of the sentence. I read it as meaning that the High Elves are ASF despite wielding great weapons.

Don't stress though, because this will be in the High Elves PDF.

**Killjoy00**

I'm not ignoring it at all. I pointed out an example where it would be relevant - this just isn't one of them. GW don't negate ASF now. They grant a separate and distinct rule.

I think you are choosing to ignore the fact that the rule says it grants the rule Always strikes first regardless of weapon. It doesn't say the model "always strikes first" in the general use of that phrase.

The weapon here is not removing Always strikes first. Therefore that phrase is inapplicable. If great weapons did remove Always strikes first, the result would be the High Elf striking last - which is not what is happening.

At any rate, my main point wasn't that this is the only way to read the rule. It is that Grotsnik is certainly wrong that there is no room for debate on this. You are right that the PDF will clear it up and either way that comes down will be fine with me.

**Karon**

RiTides wrote:
Mick A wrote:No more seeing units of Ogres hiding behind units of gnoblars...

Mick

Well, those gnoblars will probably provide hard cover to the ogres- which will be a -2 modifier to hit! It specifically lists "other models" as one of the things that provides "hard cover" (as opposed to soft cover, which is -1 to hit). So I think you will see units of Ogres hiding behind gnoblars now more than ever! Especially with the extra rare units that will be coming out now... lots of artillery.

About the whole Treeman Ancient debate- I think he'll still have his uses, and I'll certainly still be taking one! The annoyance of nettlings really helps take on big opposing characters! Also, imho he definitely won't be counting towards both your Lord and Rare percentages- I'm sure that will be errata'ed. I am wondering if he will count as a "duplicate unit" with a normal treeman (and thus only allow you to take one other treeman, rather than two). I doubt it, though... hopefully he'll just count as Lord and that's that.

Treesinging is weaker, but skirmishers are stubborn in woods, so it still helps to put some dryads in there and move it around, imho. That's what I'll be doing with my magic! It's either that, or take a level 4 caster (to get acces to lore of life/beasts in the rulebook). But I'd rather just stick with using the PD generated by winds of magic to cast the bound treesinging spells for my treemen. So no extra points put into magic to get PD (and also none for DD, since they both are generated automatically), which saves me points from 7th, but treesinging can only buff my own skirmishers, or hurt opposing models that venture inside woods. I kind of like it... but it definitely means I won't be going on offense with magic. To do so requires a significant investment in a level 4 caster, and that just doesn't fit my army.

Here comes the trees, baby!

Until the Beastmen come and raze your trees!

**Spookymancer**

It really is silly to argue right now about a rule that will clearly be addressed in the High Elf FAQ as anyone who has had a chance to read the 8th edition rules knows that right below the box that describes ASF, it clearly states how it works with ASL and that they cancel each other out and the GW wielder strikes at initiative and does not get the bonus rerolls to hit.

8th edition is not released yet and people are trying to pick apart and dissect every rule to find loopholes and yet every codex outside of Beastmen were written with an older ruleset in mind so the wording on things will not work exactly as it has been intended to when the codex or book was originally written.

People are better off spending this time trying to figure out what changed in the new ruleset and how are they going to have to adjust to the changes rather than worry about how can I bend the rules to play my broken list and still remain dominant.

**Killjoy00**

Fair enough Spooky

I guess I got a little rankled at the "It is there in black and white. There is no room for debate" comment, but well said. While room for debate, there isn't (yet) a need for debate.

Thanks!

**eledamris**

The High Elf debate reminds me of a time at Games Day Chicago in '04 when a friend and I played against a self-proclaimed "Rules Lawyer" in one of the GW pick-up games. It was one of the worst gaming experiences of my life. If someone is trying to be the Johnny Cochran of Warhammer rules, they'll probably win the argument, but they won't have anyone to play with.

On another topic, how does everyone see this changing the way the typical army looks on the table? I can't see horde working for elite units, even those that are Core just because it's so cost-prohibitive. To effectively use horde, you need at least 40 models (50 for High Elves), because you'll need full ranks in order to stay stubborn. I can only envision one or two big units like this in even a horde army like Gobbos or Skaven. 40 Goblins with spears are a lot of attacks, but I still think they'll have trouble with my 10 Empire Knights, maybe doing 2-3 wounds and then suffering from 4-5 wounds coming back. Personally, I think we'll see one or two big horde units of core crunchies supported by smaller units of damage dealing elites... sorta the way it's supposed to look. Crazy.

**Minsc**

Going to repeat this question in here: How has Scout been changed? As, right now, it's unusable.

**skyth**

I didn't look at it, but I heard that it allows deployment outside of 12" regardless of cover, etc...But prohibits first turn charges if you go first.

**Minsc**

skyth wrote:I didn't look at it, but I heard that it allows deployment outside of 12" regardless of cover, etc...But prohibits first turn charges if you go first.

So it's a slightly modified 40K Infiltrate. Joy. At least it ends the Dark Elf Assassin trick.

**skyth**

Only if the DE player goes first. If the DE player goes second, then they are free to charge

**Spookymancer**

Scout is exactly as Skyth said so it is much easier to play with now since you do not need to hide your units behind buildings or in terrain. And there is no charging at all just like units with the Vanguard rule (fast cavarly) on the first turn.

And as I understand it Skyth it's first turn for both players regardless of who goes actually first in the turn.

**Terminus**

Well, those gnoblars will probably provide hard cover to the ogres- which will be a -2 modifier to hit! It specifically lists "other models" as one of the things that provides "hard cover" (as opposed to soft cover, which is -1 to hit). So I think you will see units of Ogres hiding behind gnoblars now more than ever! Especially with the extra rare units that will be coming out now... lots of artillery.

Ooh, I like this a lot better than the flat save 40K cover hands out now.

**Karon**

Terminus wrote:
Well, those gnoblars will probably provide hard cover to the ogres- which will be a -2 modifier to hit! It specifically lists "other models" as one of the things that provides "hard cover" (as opposed to soft cover, which is -1 to hit). So I think you will see units of Ogres hiding behind gnoblars now more than ever! Especially with the extra rare units that will be coming out now... lots of artillery.

Ooh, I like this a lot better than the flat save 40K cover hands out now.

Much more realistic too.

**Killjoy00**

I got the impression that it was only the very first turn of the game, re: scout. And it was 12 inches.

**Lorne**

Necros I remember reading that you no longer get the -1 for moving and firing with blowpipes. So now you can move and multishoot and hit on a 5+ barring other modifiers.

Has anyone heard about any change to poison?

**sexiest_hero**

So is it

25% lords
25% heros

or just 25% for both?

**Platuan4th**

sexiest_hero wrote:So is it

25% lords
25% heros

or just 25% for both?

25% lords
25% heros

**sexiest_hero**

Awesomriffic. So i can have a uber Vampire lord, and like 12 necromancers in a 2500 point game

**Platuan4th**

sexiest_hero wrote:Awesomriffic. So i can have a uber Vampire lord, and like 12 necromancers in a 2500 point game

You can. And Necromancers, since they buy spells instead of rolling for them, aren't affected by the "only one of each spell" rule.

However, good luck casting with all of them since you're limited to 12 power dice Max.

**barlio**

Yeah, but the Necros will be in a DMV-like waiting line to cast their spells.

What I think is interesting that from looking at a variety of people's 8th Ed lists is that people will most likely run the same number of characters. Cheaper character armies (like Empire, O&G, etc...) will most likely field another hero or Lord. Granted lists like O&G and the Empire now have access to builds that can include more special choices that points wise would equal a cheaper character (i.e. mounted Captain with goodies = a cannon or couple of mortars.

**Spellbound**

What about VC? All vampires know invocation - does that remain valid, and only the rolled-for spells can't be duplicated?

What if you have a level 4 and two lv 2's? The 4 takes his, the 2 takes his....what does the other level 2 get?

Also, ALL power dice, regardless of source, are shared now correct?

So if a vampire takes the +2 power dice ability, anyone can use them?

**Lyracian**

Terminus wrote:Ooh, I like this a lot better than the flat save 40K cover hands out now.

Yes it might actually make Marines use cover. Perhaps by the time we get to 8th Edition 40k...

Anyway back to Fantasy. Everything I have heard makes me like this edition. Pre-measure, Random Charge Range, Less magic but each spell is more powerful all sound good to me.
Bound items are sounding a bit weak and I dislike skirmishers being a fixed formation.

**FlammingGaunt**

About the Speed of Asuryan- it clearly says regardless of weapon, meaning they have ASF no matter what weapon they have(yes this includes great weapons). There is no cheap shot rules lawyering, or what ever it's a special bonus that HE get thats like denying WoC there roll on the Eye of the gods.