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Prepare to have 9/10 people disagree with you, the 1/10th being the HE players.

Invocation in General got much weaker as did all low casting value magic spells such as Ogre magic since you cannot take the risk to one dice spells anymore. Any roll of a 1 or a 2 on a single dice if you one dice magic is a failure of the spell and that wizard cannot cast magic any more for the rest of the turn. This also is true if you fail to reach the casting value of a spell with a wizard.

The opposite is now true for dispelling spells as well. You nominate a wizard (if you have one) to attempt to dispel and roll dice. If he single dices the dispel attempt and rolls a 1 or a 2 then its an automatic failure and he cannot attempt to dispel any more magic spells for the rest of the turn.

Until they get FAQ'd the most powerful magic items in the games are the ones that cause automatic miscasts or that greatly increase the chance to miscast as the new table is just brutal and you will see tons of wizards blowing up and killing their own units or just killing that turns magic phase entirely.

I still plan to try casting invocation on one dice. The enemy has FAR fewer dispel dice than they used to have, and as before I'll either succeed on a 3+ or I'll fail, big deal. I just won't be taking the level 2 vampire power [pointless now, largely] anymore, and heck even the ghoul power is really just to either make it more difficult to dispel and to increase beyond starting size. Since anyone can use the power dice now, the enemy will have a choice - dispel the weak summoning spells I've cast and let my bigger wizards cast the really nasty spells, or let me summon. Pretty much just like it was before. The random dice generation hurts, but I can mitigate that by having a couple vampires with the +2 power dice power [probably a vampire lord] to feed more power dice. Sure, they might fail if I roll a 1 or a 2 just like before, and then they can't cast anymore spells - that just means the other wizards I have will pick up the slack. Honestly I'd rather take THAT risk than risk getting the miscast!

Also worth noting: The Slaan's becalming skill or whatever that picked a wizard and removed their 6's that they roll is now a blessing and a curse - they'll never get IF, but never miscast either if you use that. Hilarious.

Vampire counts didn't totally get the nerf bat. They'll need to take fewer bigger units than MSU and depend on spells to bulk them up, but largely I think they'll do ok. The character limitations still allow you to take 50% of your army as characters, which is something that try as I might, I was never able to make an effective VC list that didn't max out on characters, and that came out to about 50% of the list points usually. Their infantry took a bit of a hit [a huge one] though fear now means enemies will hit us on 5+ and we'll hit them on 3+, lots of the time and that's kind of good. It looks like they'll depend on combined arms, though. Big blocks of undead hordes supported by some kind of heavy hitter like a Varghulf or cavalry or wraiths to put out the damage and make sure you outnumber your enemy. Shame Vlad can't get his ward save and regeneration, though.


I'm impressed with what the rules do for WoC, though. I mean it's just amazing. Always getting your attacks even if you're killed, striking in I order [which I don't necessarily like, but it does make WoC stronger], bonus attacks from the back - I just wish we could use spears! March blocking is now seriously impeded [HOORAY!] and terrain much less of an effect. BSBs apparently allow re-rolls for stupidity now so trolls will be quite nice, and I can take a melee-heavy force and still have approx. half the dispel dice the enemy has for power dice. I can also take a wizard with the puppet to REALLY capitalize on that delicious miscast table, and the Black Tongue is definitely an option. And oh dear, the hellcannon!

The new edition loves WoC.

I must admit I still find it strange the people saying 'but the army book says...' There is going to be an errata people. What the rulebook currently says doesn't guarantee it will stay that way.

Some people are wondering if the book is worth the money so I thought I would give you an actual breakdown of whats in the book:

vii-xvii - introduction

1-152 - main rules and scenarios

153-270 -Warhammer world fluff (inc map of the complete world...)

271-380 - miniatures and modelling

381-478 - Warhammer battles (more specialised scenarios)

479-489 - bestiary

490-505 - lores of magic and magic items

506-509 - reference sheets

510-512 - index

Overall a very full book. Gamewise I would say the only sections not useful are the fluff and miniatures sections (so about 200 pages but that still means there are more gaming related pages in this edition than total pages in the current edition!).

Mick

Terminus wrote:Prepare to have 9/10 people disagree with you, the 1/10th being the HE players.

Despite the snarkiness of the quote, as a HE player, I would actually argue in that Speed of Asuryan gets cancelled out with ASL.

In terms of the original question I had, the exact wording (finally got a chance to read the book) is that ASF and ASL negate eachother, which suggests that normal ASF benefits of High Initiative Re-rolls are also gone.

In any event, we'll have to wait until the Errata comes out (hopefully will be addressed).


Couple of note-worthy things I noticed while reading the book that I don't think have been mentioned.

1) Flyers have a move of 10" and a "fly-march" of 20". This is actually quite a big change, especially for any flying units with shooting (not very many, to be fair). No more unrestricted 20" moves.

2) Units with flaming attacks apparently cause fear in cavalry/beasts/chariots (er, something like that....basically animals are afraid of fire). Seems like a fairly unnecessary addition to rules on Flaming Attacks.

3) Warmachines - For shooting, you ALWAYS hit the warmachine. Use the T7 of the Warmachine to determine wounds. However, any wounds are taken from the crew, and the crew receive whatever armor save they have available.

4) I forget in which thread this was argued, but regarding Irresistible Force and miscasts:
As mentioned, any rolls with 2 or more 6's when casting cause the spell to be cast with IF. However it also causes a miscast. As skyth had mentioned, that section DOES specifically state that Irresistible Force leads to miscasts.

HOWEVER. as I think Pip mentioned, there is a paragraph near the end of the section on IF and Miscasts that explicitly states that items that cause spells to be cast with IF or miscast DO NOT cause the other. IE, items, such as Ring of Hotek, which causes miscasts on any roll with doubles DOES NOT cause the spell to be cast with IF. Similarly, the Book of Hoeth, which causes any roll with doubles to be cast with IF, DOES NOT cause wizard to roll under the Loss of Control table (excepting, of course, that he rolls 2 or more 6's).

5) Monsters and Handlers - still can't target the handlers in HtH, but it seemed that wounds caused by shooting could distribute to the Handlers. Losing all the Handlers causes a roll under the Monster Reaction Table, per normal.

I played a demo game with the new rules the other night and I have to say that it was a lot of fun, much more fast paces and the rules seemed to make sense as we were playing through (although I think we made some rule mistakes).

So I would say that I am a fan of the new rules.

I've had a couple of great games, testing out some of the new stuff, not necessarily playing hard to win.

That said "What the hell, change into a friggin dragon, lets see what you can do." was a big mistake!

And orcs are not only very fun in this edition, but driving my opponent crazy. Some units are suddenly much better. Squigs tearing up whole units is so fun.

Oh, also:

When attacking Warmachines in CC, only 6 models may attack it/the crew.

I fully plan to test out the new power of a slaan by throwing 6 dice at the biggest spells until I roll double 6s then hopefully blowing up an enemy wizard. No more miscasts on double 1s is amazing for people like Teclis

S8, T8 dragon? yes please

Kirasu wrote:I fully plan to test out the new power of a slaan by throwing 6 dice at the biggest spells until I roll double 6s then hopefully blowing up an enemy wizard. No more miscasts on double 1s is amazing for people like Teclis

S8, T8 dragon? yes please

I had 1 game where I cast that on my lvl 2 mage 5/6 turns. Was fantastic.
I was playing a VC player and the fact that I kept turning into a dragon or mountain chimera made him waste his power dice on getting rid of it each turn. He summoned a total of 2 models the whole game.

Also that lizardmen item can rot in hell. ESPECIALLY in 8th ed.

I'm dissapointed by the lack of a change to how ranks work. Why should Ogres be at a dissadvantage? It annoys me so much that you need atleast 10 models to get a rank bonus =[ and no with so many ranks being able to attack ogres are going be at even more of a dissadvantage =[

Oshova

Ummm...Ogres get rank bonus for 3 wide...

Oshova wrote:I'm dissapointed by the lack of a change to how ranks work. Why should Ogres be at a dissadvantage? It annoys me so much that you need atleast 10 models to get a rank bonus =[ and no with so many ranks being able to attack ogres are going be at even more of a dissadvantage =[

Oshova

Been reported many times that monstrous infantry needs just 3 per rank. They also get 3 supporting attacks per model, not 1, and horde rule kicks in at 6 wide, not 10. Ogres got a huge boost.

Spellbound wrote:What about VC? All vampires know invocation - does that remain valid, and only the rolled-for spells can't be duplicated?

That remains valid. One of the exceptions is that if you have a spell that you have to have and can't choose/discard/roll for another, it can be duplicated.

Oshova wrote:I'm dissapointed by the lack of a change to how ranks work. Why should Ogres be at a dissadvantage? It annoys me so much that you need atleast 10 models to get a rank bonus =[ and no with so many ranks being able to attack ogres are going be at even more of a dissadvantage =[

Oshova

FOR the last time rank bonus is at 5 wide not ten and for ogres its three

I am not very amusead at my local store (chermside in Brisbane).

They have 2 copies of the rulebook in the window.

Customers are allowed 'glimpses' of 1 or 2 pages of rules, and more of the 'fluff' sections.

There will be no practice games using the new rules until 1 week prior to the release of the system.

Despite the UK and US having intro/practice games for a week now.


Now in saying all that I know 2 guys who already have the book and I read most of it last week. BUT its all about getting to play the new rules, not reading them. And not everyone has the luxury of friends who get pre-release stuff.

Waaagh_Gonads wrote:I am not very amusead at my local store (chermside in Brisbane).

They have 2 copies of the rulebook in the window.

Customers are allowed 'glimpses' of 1 or 2 pages of rules, and more of the 'fluff' sections.

There will be no practice games using the new rules until 1 week prior to the release of the system.

Despite the UK and US having intro/practice games for a week now.


Now in saying all that I know 2 guys who already have the book and I read most of it last week. BUT its all about getting to play the new rules, not reading them. And not everyone has the luxury of friends who get pre-release stuff.

well, at least you can take solace in the fact that oz prices are lower than the rest of the worl... oh crap... never mind!

Waaagh_Gonads wrote:I am not very amusead at my local store (chermside in Brisbane).

They have 2 copies of the rulebook in the window.

Customers are allowed 'glimpses' of 1 or 2 pages of rules, and more of the 'fluff' sections.

There will be no practice games using the new rules until 1 week prior to the release of the system.

Despite the UK and US having intro/practice games for a week now.


Now in saying all that I know 2 guys who already have the book and I read most of it last week. BUT its all about getting to play the new rules, not reading them. And not everyone has the luxury of friends who get pre-release stuff.

Wow. Dumb.

I played 3 games of 8th today with orcs. Made some dumb mistakes from not having played them in a decade, and experimentation lost me a game. (Hint: Don't let the beast shaman change into a big dragon because you are curious about it.) Another was going splendidly until my shamans head blew up, and a giant sized Purple son killed 28 models including my warboss and a hydra.

Lost to Dark Elves, close loss to Beasts due to Dragon allergies, and a 4pt pyric victory (tie) over a hard chaos mortals army. Games were 2500, 2500, and 2999.

Fun as hell, and had a crowd for all three.

Oshova wrote:I'm dissapointed by the lack of a change to how ranks work. Why should Ogres be at a dissadvantage? It annoys me so much that you need atleast 10 models to get a rank bonus =[ and no with so many ranks being able to attack ogres are going be at even more of a dissadvantage =[

Oshova

no, the paragraph says that whenever you see the 5 to a rank rule you replace it with 3 for monstrous infantry as such monstrous infantry only require 6 models in a rank to benefit from the horde rule.

mikhaila wrote:

Oshova wrote:I'm dissapointed by the lack of a change to how ranks work. Why should Ogres be at a dissadvantage? It annoys me so much that you need atleast 10 models to get a rank bonus =[ and no with so many ranks being able to attack ogres are going be at even more of a dissadvantage =[

Oshova

Been reported many times that monstrous infantry needs just 3 per rank. They also get 3 supporting attacks per model, not 1, and horde rule kicks in at 6 wide, not 10. Ogres got a huge boost.

Can I just say a massive thanks =D Seriously I've read that book quite a bit already, but seem to have missed out the awesomely important Ogre awesome bits lol

Oshova

Waaagh_Gonads wrote:I am not very amusead at my local store (chermside in Brisbane).

They have 2 copies of the rulebook in the window.

Customers are allowed 'glimpses' of 1 or 2 pages of rules, and more of the 'fluff' sections.

There will be no practice games using the new rules until 1 week prior to the release of the system.

Despite the UK and US having intro/practice games for a week now.


Now in saying all that I know 2 guys who already have the book and I read most of it last week. BUT its all about getting to play the new rules, not reading them. And not everyone has the luxury of friends who get pre-release stuff.

Same here in Sydney . 2 of the GW stores I frequent will not let you look at the book unless its through a glass case and 2 other FLGS have yet to recieve there copy and are still waiting . Yet again GW lets down the Aussies .

mikhaila wrote:I played 3 games of 8th today with orcs. Made some dumb mistakes from not having played them in a decade, and experimentation lost me a game. (Hint: Don't let the beast shaman change into a big dragon because you are curious about it.) Another was going splendidly until my shamans head blew up, and a giant sized Purple son killed 28 models including my warboss and a hydra.

Lost to Dark Elves, close loss to Beasts due to Dragon allergies, and a 4pt pyric victory (tie) over a hard chaos mortals army. Games were 2500, 2500, and 2999.

Fun as hell, and had a crowd for all three.

did you play larger than normal games or is 2500+ the standard game size in fantasy? (40k nut here but fantasy noob) also, purple son???

Terminus wrote:I wonder how much this new design paradigm will influence the next 40K.

That would break 40K IMO.

warboss wrote:

mikhaila wrote:I played 3 games of 8th today with orcs. Made some dumb mistakes from not having played them in a decade, and experimentation lost me a game. (Hint: Don't let the beast shaman change into a big dragon because you are curious about it.) Another was going splendidly until my shamans head blew up, and a giant sized Purple son killed 28 models including my warboss and a hydra.

Lost to Dark Elves, close loss to Beasts due to Dragon allergies, and a 4pt pyric victory (tie) over a hard chaos mortals army. Games were 2500, 2500, and 2999.

Fun as hell, and had a crowd for all three.

did you play larger than normal games or is 2500+ the standard game size in fantasy? (40k nut here but fantasy noob) also, purple son???

They don't really give a point value. I'm betting a lot of people start playing 2500 to 2999. Nothing special about 2250 that a lot of tournaments do. At 3k you get double the amount of repetition for rares and specials, so I can see that being a popular option. It was certainly fun to be able to field more models, and take some larger units.

Purple Sun of Xerus is a nasty lore of Death spell. It's a magical vortex (classification of spell) that uses the small template and starts at the caster and moves 3xArtillery Dice inches forward, causing any model touched to take an initiative test or DIE! And of course my worthy opponent had taken the option to try casting at a higher level (25) and use the large template. He went through 3 orc units, taking out 26 models, then my warboss failed both Look out Sir and the I test. Followed by his Hydra dying as well.

He only had the spell because he managed to get a Level 1 Dark Elf wizard into a Wizards tower, take advantage of the library to know all the lore of death, and toss all 8 dice at the spell, getting Absolute Force. The miscast afterwards also wounded the wizard and killed half the unit in the tower, but that's a cost he didn't mind paying. He took out the other half of the unit and killed the wizard in another miscast the next round.

Does anyone know if the slanns ability that lets them roll an addition dice for each spell counts towards the 12 PD.

The way its written im thinking no, and that is going to make the lizard magic phase pretty damn scary.

Judgeing by the post above me it looks like the max dice you can throw at a spell being caster level +1 is gone...

That just sounds cheesy, throwing a nuts amount of dice at a spell on a cheap (like 60 point) level one wizard...

Does that Purple Sun spell continue to work even after the caster is dead, assuming it doesn't get dispelled?

Rated G wrote:Does that Purple Sun spell continue to work even after the caster is dead, assuming it doesn't get dispelled?

Yes, it is a magical vortex. These remain on the table after their casting, until either dispelled or a description-based criteria is met. Many people who are expecting to face down a Lore of Death are probably going to keep a scroll on hand for the purpose of dispelling it in their next player turn (since it'll probably be going off with IF).

ShivanAngel wrote:Does anyone know if the slanns ability that lets them roll an addition dice for each spell counts towards the 12 PD.

The way its written im thinking no, and that is going to make the lizard magic phase pretty damn scary.

Judgeing by the post above me it looks like the max dice you can throw at a spell being caster level +1 is gone...

That just sounds cheesy, throwing a nuts amount of dice at a spell on a cheap (like 60 point) level one wizard...

The slann gets to add 1 free dice per spell and yes slann are scary, they've always been. so technically you could cast a spell with 13 dice ending up with 13d6+4 to your cast.

Their one and only scroll! All Scrolls are now unique items (take THAT boring Scroll Caddies!)