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chaos0xomega wrote:

Phryxis wrote:All the cynical "price gouging" talk is ignoring GW's most recent round of financial statements. They were profitable this year, and they just paid off a significant amount of debt. They will not need to increase prices in order to remain profitable, so they probably will not do so.

It's tempting to do the whole "they're just greedy idiots" thing, but the fact is GW is making a profit in a luxury product during a major global economic slowdown. If they were greedy idiots, they would not be having that level of success.

Except in those same financial statements the CEO states that they have priced their products lower than their actual value, suggesting more price rises. And they were profitable last year too... in fact, they have been profitable for several years...

Another big (almost 10%) price rise did just happen, not that I care anymore. As said, I don't buy their stuff at RRP since last year's hike, let alone this one. 'Profitable' does not mean making a sustainable profit or having a strong stock index. If they were really pricing their products below their value, then they could not be making any definable profit whatsoever. What they did last financial year is 'priced their products at less than they would like to be able to sell them for', and regardless, they made an overall profit.

Arctik_Firangi wrote:Models have been getting better already... late 7th ed WHFB and everything since the '09 SW first wave have been evidence of that.

I'm not ready to go that far. What have we seen recently?

The good
The excellent Eldar Fireprism Kit
The Leman Russ Battle tank
The fantastic River trolls
The very nice Skaven first wave

The flawed
The Blood Angels line, which while showing fine sculpting technique is one of the most ridiculously OTT-designed lines GW has ever produced
The Space Wolves line, which ranges from truly inspiring (Njal) to passable but strange (Lukas, SW Pack) to the profoundly silly (Canis Wolfborn)
The great IG Manticore (and the bafflingly designed Deathstrike)
Daemons second wave, of which the only kit that seems to generate consistent approval is the Bloodcrushers set- almost identical to the first-wave metal model
The Beastmen gors and ungors, which despite some silly details are decent chiefly by being extremely close to the old designs

The ugly
The Eldar Support platform kit
The widely-criticised Boar Boyz
The rest of the Beastman line, but especially the Minotaurs and Razor gor, which plumb new depths of terrible sculpting

Now not everyone will agree with me about the quality of each kit, but the fact that there is so much inconsistency in what's been put out lately speaks very poorly of GW overall quality. They are capable of being truly great, but hit that mark I'd say less than half the time. And yet they want to justify calling themselves a luxury product and charging prices fitting their "good" releases, pretending everything they do fits into that category. But what's inexcusable is an inferior model (support platform, plastic daemonettes) replacing and making superior models unavailible. Not only does that take away good models from the customers, it wastes GW's development resources.

Prices have been rising too fast. Much too fast. Forget the most recent rise, I stopped buying GW models at full price since last year's hike and there is nothing in my opinion that can improve public opinion of GW more than an apology and a price reduction.

I could care less about an apology, but a price reduction would be quite welcome. Or alternatively, I would stop complaining about prices if GW just got some quality control to guarantee that every release is at least the quality level of the things I put in the good category above, or better.

Well that's a matter of opinion. The wolf looks like a cat in the Canis kit, true. The boars are different, yes, but they are more detailed and animated than the old ones by an great degree, and even if they are not your preference, in my opinion they fit the image of an Orc horde much better. The minotaurs too... they look wrong, but they are plastic, and they are better and more detailed than the old ones.

It doesn't have to be perfect to be better. I can't say they kick a goal every time, but I mean, look at the Ork plastics since the last codex. An absolute improvement.

I think the new Blood Angels are ridiculous but I have always thought Blood Angels were ridiculous.

JOHIRA wrote:The ugly
The Eldar Support platform kit
The widely-criticised Boar Boyz
The rest of the Beastman line, but especially the Minotaurs and Razor gor, which plumb new depths of terrible sculpting

How about the Basilisk. Same model, no options like the new Leman Russ tanks, big new model price tag. Total disappointment.

Given the thread title, i carn't say i'm suprised.

Firstly we are in the middle of a recession, i dont know how things are over in the states! but in the UK it's hit a lot of people hard, me included.

Now we are pushing out of recession, with rival companies gaining speed, GW are gonna look at what they do well and push that further, and if i'm honest they do some of the best models you can get. So naturally they are gonna push that! look at Space Hulk last year, i remember reading in WD that they really wanted to use the game as a way of showcasing how good they can make their products, high quallity models etc. Looking at the two awards it won as noted in this months WD and the fact that i've got a copy and know how well done the whole thing is, and this can only lend towards the thinking that they are trying to push the quallity of their products up.

I personally fee lthat the models in recent months have been a real step forward, and i hope it continues.

Arctik_Firangi wrote:It doesn't have to be perfect to be better. I can't say they kick a goal every time, but I mean, look at the Ork plastics since the last codex. An absolute improvement.

But we're not paying for "better than the last codex". By Games Workshop's own financial statements, we are paying for the best miniatures on the market, top-quality luxury goods. So if GW says they're the best, and they want to charge prices like they're the best, then I expect them to actually be the best. No corner-cutting allowed.

So the news is more minis for everyone and more price hikes.

Considering at this point I am only waiting on Sisters and considering GW has done their damn best to squat them in the past few years, this entire thread seems like wasted time.

Now, if someone in the know wishes to correct me with something more substantial then 'their coming but are a ways off' then go right ahead. Till then I'm woking on my Malifaux warbands.

JOHIRA wrote:

Arctik_Firangi wrote:It doesn't have to be perfect to be better. I can't say they kick a goal every time, but I mean, look at the Ork plastics since the last codex. An absolute improvement.

But we're not paying for "better than the last codex". By Games Workshop's own financial statements, we are paying for the best miniatures on the market, top-quality luxury goods. So if GW says they're the best, and they want to charge prices like they're the best, then I expect them to actually be the best. No corner-cutting allowed.

My answer to this is in my post prior to the one you quoted. I don't agree with the magnitude of their two most recent price hikes. That said, I'm not going to have a fit about it. I'm happy to pay full price at non-GW stores because I know exactly what the markup is, and how hard it is to keep a hobby establishment kicking. I'm not happy at where 'full price' has gone, but that's what I've been saying.

Phryxis wrote:All the cynical "price gouging" talk is ignoring GW's most recent round of financial statements. They were profitable this year, and they just paid off a significant amount of debt. They will not need to increase prices in order to remain profitable, so they probably will not do so.

It's tempting to do the whole "they're just greedy idiots" thing, but the fact is GW is making a profit in a luxury product during a major global economic slowdown. If they were greedy idiots, they would not be having that level of success.

But you are ignoring the fact that GW had it's most profitable year in 2004, during which they also increased prices (and tried to monopolize internet sales). Then, when the LotR bubble burst in 2005, they increased prices. As the housing market boomed, they increased prices. Then, as the economy tanked, they increased prices. Now, as the economy is trying to recover, they increased prices.

There has really been only one constant in the way GW handles business. GW increases prices.

Phryxis wrote:All the cynical "price gouging" talk is ignoring GW's most recent round of financial statements. They were profitable this year, and they just paid off a significant amount of debt. They will not need to increase prices in order to remain profitable, so they probably will not do so.

I disagree. Like any other business that answers to shareholders, they will increase the price of their models so long as the market will bear it.

I don't make anything from the rumors. Nothing substantial was said. All of that junk can be sumed up with "We're gonna do some stuff, just wait and see."

Sorry if someone's already said this but...

If GW are going to be spending more time on the models (therefore less time on the rules). How is this in any way news or a rumour as opposed to a statement of fact regarding their 'progress' over the last half decade?

Cadaver wrote:
Check this out if you haven't seen it. I found it to be a really interesting and informative read.

Thanks for that, I hadn't seen it yet! As for the GW rumors, it would be great if they could address some of the aspects of their buisiness that draw the most anger (the price raises and out of date books being the major ones for me). On the otherhand, they aren't doing too bad right now from my perspective, so I won't be too disappointed if nothing comes of this.

Scottywan82 wrote: As a long-time Codex: Not Marines Player, I can tell you that some of those Codex: Marines entries are broken. It's like GW doesn't even care about MY army at all.

Alpharius wrote:Are you a...

...Dark Eldar player?!?

Maybe he's a Squats player.

Arctik_Firangi wrote:

chaos0xomega wrote:

Phryxis wrote:All the cynical "price gouging" talk is ignoring GW's most recent round of financial statements. They were profitable this year, and they just paid off a significant amount of debt. They will not need to increase prices in order to remain profitable, so they probably will not do so.

It's tempting to do the whole "they're just greedy idiots" thing, but the fact is GW is making a profit in a luxury product during a major global economic slowdown. If they were greedy idiots, they would not be having that level of success.

Except in those same financial statements the CEO states that they have priced their products lower than their actual value, suggesting more price rises. And they were profitable last year too... in fact, they have been profitable for several years...

Another big (almost 10%) price rise did just happen, not that I care anymore. As said, I don't buy their stuff at RRP since last year's hike, let alone this one. 'Profitable' does not mean making a sustainable profit or having a strong stock index. If they were really pricing their products below their value, then they could not be making any definable profit whatsoever. What they did last financial year is 'priced their products at less than they would like to be able to sell them for', and regardless, they made an overall profit.

Value of a product =/= cost of production. The true value of an object is determined by the price the market has set for it, I.E. - how much money people are willing to purchase it for. When GW says that their product is priced below its value, that means that they feel they are charging less than the amount of money people are willing to pay for the product.

Kogwar wrote:

Phryxis wrote:All the cynical "price gouging" talk is ignoring GW's most recent round of financial statements. They were profitable this year, and they just paid off a significant amount of debt. They will not need to increase prices in order to remain profitable, so they probably will not do so.

It's tempting to do the whole "they're just greedy idiots" thing, but the fact is GW is making a profit in a luxury product during a major global economic slowdown. If they were greedy idiots, they would not be having that level of success.

Or they have a really good product

Riight.

chaos0xomega wrote:

Arctik_Firangi wrote:

chaos0xomega wrote:

Phryxis wrote:All the cynical "price gouging" talk is ignoring GW's most recent round of financial statements. They were profitable this year, and they just paid off a significant amount of debt. They will not need to increase prices in order to remain profitable, so they probably will not do so.

It's tempting to do the whole "they're just greedy idiots" thing, but the fact is GW is making a profit in a luxury product during a major global economic slowdown. If they were greedy idiots, they would not be having that level of success.

Except in those same financial statements the CEO states that they have priced their products lower than their actual value, suggesting more price rises. And they were profitable last year too... in fact, they have been profitable for several years...

Another big (almost 10%) price rise did just happen, not that I care anymore. As said, I don't buy their stuff at RRP since last year's hike, let alone this one. 'Profitable' does not mean making a sustainable profit or having a strong stock index. If they were really pricing their products below their value, then they could not be making any definable profit whatsoever. What they did last financial year is 'priced their products at less than they would like to be able to sell them for', and regardless, they made an overall profit.

Value of a product =/= cost of production. The true value of an object is determined by the price the market has set for it, I.E. - how much money people are willing to purchase it for. When GW says that their product is priced below its value, that means that they feel they are charging less than the amount of money people are willing to pay for the product.

... did I not pretty much say that?

Except in those same financial statements the CEO states that they have priced their products lower than their actual value, suggesting more price rises

It's true, and I don't fully grasp the thought behind that comment. If they're making a good profit, then they're probably not charging less than their actual value. When one compares them to other injection molded kits, they're also not undercosted.

So I agree, it could mean they intend to jack up prices, but I can't fathom why they'd change their pricing model when they're (as I understand it) quite profitable. It's economics 101. You have to find the best combination of price and sales volume. Generally speaking, if you're making a good profit, you're probably about right with that, especially with a luxury product, which should not be doing well in the current climate.

As this is GW, however (and let's face it, they've consistently shown an inability to think strategically over the long term)

I dunno man, unless I'm failing to undertand their most recent financial report, it sounds to me like their current management is exceedingly good at the business side. So, if you mean strategically in terms of the details of products, maybe... But if you mean in terms of taking on debt, investing in technology, general operational business concerns, then I think they're quite smart strategically.

It might be nice to have more competition, but it can also backfire. As it stands, 40K is very popular, and thus easy to find a game... But now that Fantasy came out, I've had a bit more trouble finding a game, some days people are playing Fantasy instead. Also, as Warmachine gains steam, some people are playing that.

So, if there is more competition, it might get to the point where it's prohibitively difficult to get a game.

Of course, it might also cause a drop in prices, a cross pollenation in ideas, etc. etc.

wizard1 wrote:

In the end GW would have to make it out of the stuff they make Bibles from .

Vellum parchment bound in kids' skin
Hand written in the GW Nottingham scriptorium and lavishly illuminated.
Ultramarines painted using genuine ultramarine.
Blood Angels painted with true vermillion pigments.

Chibi Bodge-Battle wrote:

wizard12 wrote:

In the end GW would have to make it out of the stuff they make Bibles from .

Vellum parchment bound in kids' skin

Dude, not cool.

JohnHwangDD wrote:

Chibi Bodge-Battle wrote:

wizard12 wrote:

In the end GW would have to make it out of the stuff they make Bibles from .

Vellum parchment bound in kids' skin

Dude, not cool.

hopefully he means a young goat...

At my FLGS, the owner always talks about how GW games are really becoming the game of kings.... and he is right. The prices are really high and according to this thread still rising.

Someone pointed out the price - quantity change and it sounds like GW is really cranking it up a notch in quality and hoping that their intro games are going to keep bringing in new players. Assault on Black Reach and Island of Blood are a tremendous value in terms of what they provide in box, but they also represent a commitment far beyond just another board game. Will younger players be enthralled enough by these intro boxes that they will be willing to shell out $50.00+ for every additional unit that they decide to add to their army? Will these new players paint their armies and remain active gamers? It takes a lot of money and effort to collect and paint a nice GW army, but it is something that I find to be worth it.

It sounds as though GW is also counting on its "followers" to keep buying regardless of the price. As someone who has been playing these games for almost twenty years, I'm feeling pretty tapped out in terms of buying new models and starting new armies. Island of Blood may attract a lot of new players to fantasy, particularly from the 40K scene, but the commitment is daunting. I get exhausted just thinking about buying, painting, and modeling all of those soldiers. My GW purchases have diminished greatly over the last three years. GW makes some fantastic models, but having good rules and making the game better is what keeps me interested in the hobby because I feel that I can leverage all the time and energy that I've invested already.

Disregarding the gameplay is a major problem, because no matter how great the models are, if the game sucks it will sink the ship.

40K has too many crazy armies to work with the "all at once" method of Privateer Press. Not to mention that GW doesn't have that many codex writers (much less good codex writers). Now if GW has decided to finally stop giving out books to random douchebags that result in equally random products (i.e. Ward powerhouse vs. Jervis snorefest), then that's great.

They may not be able to do all the books at once, but a dedicated and permanent design team that works on all the factions would be able to release rules updates and clarifications much more quickly, as well as keep all the various armies on the same design methodology.

just to clarify
Of course I meant a young goat

but now you come to mention it mwhahahaha

Samwise158 wrote:It sounds as though GW is also counting on its "followers" to keep buying regardless of the price.

That's exactly what it says in their financial report.

I find it hard to imagine prices being any higher than they already are. It's seriously getting to the point where I can't keep up the hobby anymore, I haven't bought anything new at full price since January when Tyranids came out (come to think of it I haven't really bought anything used, either). Which I'm thinking about selling on eBay anyway, due to lack of interest since GW fethed over Tyranids with the FAQ, invalidating an army build and nerfing things that weren't broken. And it took them 6 months to come out with that piece of crap, too...it was just a huge step backward and it's really put me off.

The idea of paying $50 for 3 plastic models, or over $60 for a single plastic tank (which doesn't came anywhere near the same level of quality as other $60+ model kits from other companies like Tamiya) infuriates me. And it's just going to keep going up every year, $2 here, $5 there. Before you know it land raiders will be $80. And the quality of those models hasn't been improving, either. The entire Beastmen release and Daemons second wave (and most of the stuff they got in their initial release actually) is proof enough of that. GW is really hit and miss with their quality lately.

Not only that but the constant GW price hikes impinge on the second hand market as well. Ebay used to be a good place to pick stuff up at a good price but all it has lead to now is people going on the GW website and seeing that x unit is worth £x now so that's what my 10 year old blobbily painted piece of crap is too.

Samwise158 wrote:It sounds as though GW is also counting on its "followers" to keep buying regardless of the price.

Isn't that the basis for any business?

Lennysmash wrote:

Samwise158 wrote:It sounds as though GW is also counting on its "followers" to keep buying regardless of the price.

Isn't that the basis for any business?

No. The basis for any business is that people won't keep buying regardless of price, or else you could just charge infinity dollars for your product and get away with it. A business manager has to balance the need to improve the contribution margin (the amount of extra profit from selling an extra unit) by increasing prices with the need to improve the number of units sold by decreasing prices, in order to maximise profit.

Brand loyalty and goodwill help to make your sales numbers less vulnerable to the negative effect of price increases, but not immune.

deejaybainbridge wrote:Given the thread title, i carn't say i'm suprised.

Firstly we are in the middle of a recession, i dont know how things are over in the states! but in the UK it's hit a lot of people hard, me included.

Not sure about this, I remember hearing on the news that the recession in Britain was officially over, even if it isn't we are, as you said, on the way out. This makes me optimistic about seeing a few price drops later on from GW.

In the meantime, though, would it be a good idea if they rejiggled their prices around, charging more perhaps for special characters and other minis that really, you're only gonna buy once. But reducing the price for mainstay units such as Tactical Squads or Imperial Guard Infantry Boxes. Now that the majority of these core units come in boxes of 10, really the maximum price I would be willing to pay is £12.

P4NC4K3 wrote:

Not sure about this, I remember hearing on the news that the recession in Britain was officially over, even if it isn't we are, as you said, on the way out. This makes me optimistic about seeing a few

I wouldn't hold your breath. Basically they assume and work off of a 20% price hike on a product every 4-5 years.

We might, perhaps, see less higher priced box sets like the Great/goldswords, but that's about as good as we'll see, aside from more and more units moving to plastic and saving (YMMV of course) us money that way.