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If you are a competitive gamer then I think it's a good idea to play the what if game and take into consideration how well a particular unit will perform in your local meta. PSB are great for what they can do at the point cost but against certain armies they might not do much for you. Weaken Resolve is an uber power and can easily be a game winner sometimes but not all the time. Lots of competitive gamers take them however there plenty of good alternatives.

AbaddonFidelis wrote:I don't see a reason to ever not take these guys. They're cheap, versatile, and can have a potentially devestating impact on your opponent's army.

If your opponent has a pschic hood on the board just shoot the librarian. You're playing guard you have the fire power. But even if the librarian was invincible.... you don't keep good units out of your army just because there's a possibility that your opponent will bring a model that has a possibility of stopping it. That's a fear based approach to the battle. Many armies have no psychic defense whatever.
AF

Wutz dat Buzzgit? Deres ferdy of us? Wez gonna neva surrenda to dose stupid humies!!!

Ailaros
It's not countering a specific thing you think your opponent might do. It's countering what you know to a certainty he will do - try to get into your lines. If he can't you're going to blow him away with shooting so he has to try. the PSB is just one more thing that prevents him from succeeding. Also because it's not a heavy support choice it lets you take extra blast templates without running vulnerable squadrons.
AF

Can someone please hit Abaddon for not listening? He can't hear me, but I need to point out how dumb that was.

Even if the enemy lacks psychic defense their power is still nullified by Mech or Fearless. For example, my CSM army has only a single model that isn't Fearless; my Ork army is entirely Fearless; my Imperial Guard is entirely Mech. In those cases you have to use their shooting attack, which is not cost effective. For as much as a Manticore you get a single Blast Template that might not have an AP value that matters and only a 75% chance of even getting to fire. Then of course you have to deal with that niggling (17%, or 1 in 6) chance that your Overseer will kill several of your Psychers, reducing the effectiveness of your powers.

The Psycher Battle Squad adds a pie plate from the Elites slot, which is only effective if you can't get it anywhere else. The other power they give is a tool with very limited application.

EDIT: Man the conversation moves fast.

Exactly.

Furthermore, the PBS is ONE MORE thing that prevents your opponent from doing what he wants. This does not make it the BEST or even a GOOD way to prevent your opponent from getting into your lines.

Plus, you don't even need to stop your opponent before he gets into your lines. If keeping your distance was the only way to win, you'd never see a victorious mechanized player. That you do sort of implies that getting close is better, or else mech lists wouldn't be nearly as popular (much less things like vendettas).

OK I think the psyker battle squad is a handy little thing with 1 job:

If the enemy has nob bikers, chase them off using a manticore and psykers in combination (the manticore because he has s10 ap4 shoots everywhere and denies fnp, instantkills the waaaghboss and has multiple hitting chances).

I have to admit that job is not really often needed, but the points are worth the possibility. Why? Because nob bikers kill every guard army easily.
The other job is rather special: chase Terminators or other atsknf-units off with escorting units.

I agree most armies are fearless, but not every army and the possibility to chase a damaged enemy unit relatively safe off the board is a nice option.

You dont need them, but I think they are a solid choice. Especially on tournaments where nob bikers are played some times.

Alairos
It's less expensive to neutralize an enemy unit by making it run away then it is to neutralize it by destroying it completely. PSB are extremely dangerous to deathstar units that can potentially survive alot of other kinds of guard shooting, freeing up other resources to take on other parts of the opponent's army.

I can't speak to your experience with mechanized guard armies. Maybe they can handle themselves up close. I haven't encountered any builds in my area that were more effectively handled at range than up close. That could be a result of the local meta idk.
AF

PSB are actually not a sure thing versus nob bikers. Sure you can hit them with indirect ordnance from the Manticore but on the other hand Lootas can do a quick number on the Manticore. If the nob bikers are hiding behind a couple of battle wagons and you lose your Manticore early on to lootas or Snikrot then good luck. Remember that you have to inflict enough wounds on the nob bikers to make Weaken Resolve work, that's around 12 wounds for a full squad.

Well normally the manticore is placed out of sight.

If the nob bikers are behind a wagon, perfect. go indirect for the wagon and wrap the template over some nob bikers too and go for it.
Due to cover saves you need average 6 wounds with manticore to kill 3 nob bikers, which is not sure in the first go, but together with other weaponry possible. The important thing is you dont need the other like 50 wounds to kill the whole squad before they open a tank each guy...

AbaddonFidelis wrote:It's less expensive to neutralize an enemy unit by making it run away then it is to neutralize it by destroying it completely.

Well, sort of...

I mean, if we're talking about a unit that is stubborn, fearless, out of LOS of the psykers, or are inside a transport, then there is no way that the PBS can neutralize them, not matter how many points you spend on the PBS. Having literally zero effectiveness is hard on a points:effectiveness ratio.

Secondly, the PBS can't make them run away on their own. This means you need to spend a lot more points in order to actually neutralize them (like, say, spending 160 more points to tack on a manticore). This doesn't make them "less expensive".

Of course, everything I just said has been mentioned repeatedly. Either it's not sinking in, or there is some way we need to explain this better for you to catch on.

Yes, if they're fearless or stubborn it's not as good. But they're still extremely dangerous to a broad category of targets and their blast template, while not outstanding, is useful even in those situations. The unit is inexpensive so it's just not that big of a deal if you don't get to use their weaken resolve power.

To your second point yes like we talked about they're a force multiplier. Their inclusion assumes the presence of the other elements of the army. But I don't mean expensive in the way you're talking about. I mean if you have 2000 points on the field and you have to choose targets for them, it's going to be less expensive, in terms of your resources for that turn, to cause a few wounds and get the psykers to make the target run away (300 points?), then it will be for you to completely demolish that unit(600 points?). Either way they're out of the fight so the PBS is the more efficient use of your actions for that turn.

To your third point I understand what you're saying. I just think you're wrong
AF

Stubborn doesn't work against pinning...

No unit is mandatory.
I use them extensively to great effect. YMMV, and it appears a number of people here simply do not understand how/when to properly use them.

ANY competitive guard build can use the PBS to good effect, it is just that they must be used in accordance with what you are running with them. Weaken resolve needs shooting to force the chosen unit to flee. Whether a static gunline ore mechvet alpha strike army, if you cannot reduce a threatening unit 25% in a round of shooting then you probably need to retool your list...

"EY!! GORBAD! Youz got da popkorn?"
"'Ell yah. Look at dis. Peephul iz gittin angry at eachother!"
"O'er wut?"
"Bloody Sykr battul squads or somfin."
"Well, wut do they do?"
"Nofin to us!"
Gorbad and Grotskragga look at eachother and laugh.

Orks - Making your childs channel (PBS) do nothing since 5th edition.

JSK-Fox wrote:"EY!! GORBAD! Youz got da popkorn?"
"'Ell yah. Look at dis. Peephul iz gittin angry at eachother!"
"O'er wut?"
"Bloody Sykr battul squads or somfin."
"Well, wut do they do?"
"Nofin to us!"
Gorbad and Grotskragga look at eachother and laugh.

Orks - Making your childs channel (PBS) do nothing since 5th edition.

Apart from the fact it lets me throw another S9 large blast around at 36" from the protected hull of a Chimera? No, I guess they must be totally useless against an Ork Mob /sarcasm.

L. Wrex

Yeah, especially when you look at how far you scatter.
Or, when they come into contact with your chimera. You see, Chimeras are kind of allergic to them, and seem to explode in a storm of sneezes when in contact with so many orks and a power klaw.

And any mob reduced to 10 members is going to run off the board. PBS is very nice against orks, especially the mechanized variety, as the mobs are max size 20. Nobs of all kinds are also THE target for PBS, other choice targets include all elite choices in the ork codex. Orks are one of the armies that suffer the most against PBS. They have no psychic defense, their fearless can be removed, all their heavy hitters are vulnerable to a PBS and they have weak long range firepower.

Haha! What?! So I'm just going to, quite happily, let your 30 strong mob walk upto my Chimera and hit it with a PK? And you'd choose to charge a Chimera as opposed to, say, a Leman Russ for instance? Fine, be my guest, as long as your all nicely clumped up once that Chimera does pop for the ensuing template-loving next turn.

Scattering is kind of a moot point. Your mob size is 30, even scattering 9" will probably kill me a boy or three, and that's in a worst-case scenario.

This is yet *further* proof that simply turning round in a game of 40k and saying 'X is rubbish because I'll do Y' simply doesn't cut it.

A PBS is a versatle and useful addition to a Guard army. It can easily slot alongside pretty much any force, be it mech, infantry or inbetween, and make a nuisance of itself from the off. As I said previously, its not a must have but you'll be hard pressed to find any other Elites choice that are worth taking more then them.

L. Wrex

I'm not by any means saying its a bad choice, I'm just playing the devil's advocate.

Ailaros wrote:

AbaddonFidelis wrote:It's less expensive to neutralize an enemy unit by making it run away then it is to neutralize it by destroying it completely.

Well, sort of...

I mean, if we're talking about a unit that is stubborn, fearless, out of LOS of the psykers, or are inside a transport, then there is no way that the PBS can neutralize them, not matter how many points you spend on the PBS. Having literally zero effectiveness is hard on a points:effectiveness ratio.

Secondly, the PBS can't make them run away on their own. This means you need to spend a lot more points in order to actually neutralize them (like, say, spending 160 more points to tack on a manticore). This doesn't make them "less expensive".

Of course, everything I just said has been mentioned repeatedly. Either it's not sinking in, or there is some way we need to explain this better for you to catch on.

Or it just doesn't apply in most games.................. Sure, there are some Stubborn or Fearless units out there, even a couple of armies that can make the entire army Stubborn/Fearless. So what? Does facing lots of Marines with 3+ saves mean you should take anything other than AP3/2/1 weapons? Of course not. The PBS is never a 'zero effectiveness' unit, just as heavy bolters and autocannons and even the lowly lasgun can and do kill T6 2+ save models. I'm discounting the Mech bit cause if your IG army cannot crack open the transports, then you're screwed anyways, regardless of the PBS. Even there, the PBS gives you one more shooting attack at those transports, and yeah, I've even cracked open a Land Raider with them. AP1 is nice when you can get it.
As for more expensive or not, well, if I can shoot one unit at your dedicated assault guys and then make them back up, that lets the rest of my army really pummel something else. So one unit plus PBS, around 300-350 points to negate one of your units while the rest of my army can go after another target. Kinda helps with one of IGs biggest tactical problems, that being target priority, or "what do I need to kill first". The biggest drawback to thisis that Orders occur first, so if the PBS fails, well, you just might be srewed.

I've been running a PBS (Not a PSB, no idea what a PSB is, but multiple posts here refer to it ) ever since the codex came out. It has always been a useful unit. I've killed vehicles with the blast, I've run dozens upon dozens of units off the table with Weaken Resolve. It's not a "must have" but it's definitely in the "nice to have" category.

And until the codex (both DH and WH) changes, I use a Callidus Neural Shredder/PBS Weaken Resolve combo that will insta-jib Fearless/Stubborn units quite well. And those Nob Bikers, they really do indeed hate this combo................

JSK-Fox wrote:Yeah, especially when you look at how far you scatter.
Or, when they come into contact with your chimera. You see, Chimeras are kind of allergic to them, and seem to explode in a storm of sneezes when in contact with so many orks and a power klaw.

I love it when Ork mobs charge my chimeras. It's literally the stupidest thing they can do. Oh no, my 55-point transport got destroyed. But wait, here's a huge clump of targets for my flamethrowers and artillery. I've lost track of how many times my opponents would charge my lead bait Chimera, only to have the whole unit incinerated by the Chimeras behind it.

Anyway, with a 6-12" move and 36" range, Orks should never reach the PBS.

-Nazdreg- wrote:Well normally the manticore is placed out of sight.

If the nob bikers are behind a wagon, perfect. go indirect for the wagon and wrap the template over some nob bikers too and go for it.
Due to cover saves you need average 6 wounds with manticore to kill 3 nob bikers, which is not sure in the first go, but together with other weaponry possible. The important thing is you dont need the other like 50 wounds to kill the whole squad before they open a tank each guy...

Deffkoptas will also smash the Manticore quickly. The thing about preaching how easy it is to destroy nob bikers have actually probably never played against a good ork player. Orks have all the tools to protect their nob bikers. This is not meant as a ding by the way.

Deffkoptas can only reliably take the manticore down if they can engage it in close combat, which is what the bubble wrap is for. Shooting at it will take a full squad of 5 shooting rokkits to have an even half-decent chance to take one down.

But yes, nothing is quite as easy on the table as it sounds on the boards.

The thing about preaching how easy it is to destroy nob bikers have actually probably never played against a good ork player.

To be honest: A good ork player normally does not use nob bikers...
But believe me, I tried PBS vs nob bikers AND Koptaz and it was a win after turn 2, against koptaz a simple infantry shield is enough to protect the important things. even a defensive blob will take out the koptaz soon.
I played many good ork players with different results, but psykers vs nob bikers is always a rather good deal, not to say autowin imho. There are trickier things like buggies+wagons+kans pressing with the big mek behind or hordes of boyz with kanz behind and lootaz firesupporting

word.

I been playing some games with out the psyker battle squad and I been missing it. Even forcing a combat squad off an objective after a couple losses on the last turn would be clutch and its just so good in certain match ups like Orks and Fate Crusher.

I did play the Psyker Battle squad in combination with a Callidus Assasin at Ardboys. Really fun but there is a large cost involved between the Psyker Battle Squad, Inquisitor Lord + Retinue and the Callidus Assasin. It also isn't that good if your opponent reserves everything your Assasin might come in before there is a target for toasting.

Kirika wrote:I been playing some games with out the psyker battle squad and I been missing it. Even forcing a combat squad off an objective after a couple losses on the last turn would be clutch and its just so good in certain match ups like Orks and Fate Crusher.

I did play the Psyker Battle squad in combination with a Callidus Assasin at Ardboys. Really fun but there is a large cost involved between the Psyker Battle Squad, Inquisitor Lord + Retinue and the Callidus Assasin. It also isn't that good if your opponent reserves everything your Assasin might come in before there is a target for toasting.

This is a hilariously nasty combo, but I wouldn't count the Inquisitor Lord + Retinue in that cost, since they are quite awesome and I field him almost every game. The psychic hood is invaluable, and the plasma gun veterans in a chimera can be dowright lethal (especially when paired with a plasma CCS).

Lycaeus Wrex wrote:

JSK-Fox wrote:"EY!! GORBAD! Youz got da popkorn?"
"'Ell yah. Look at dis. Peephul iz gittin angry at eachother!"
"O'er wut?"
"Bloody Sykr battul squads or somfin."
"Well, wut do they do?"
"Nofin to us!"
Gorbad and Grotskragga look at eachother and laugh.

Orks - Making your childs channel (PBS) do nothing since 5th edition.

Apart from the fact it lets me throw another S9 large blast around at 36" from the protected hull of a Chimera? No, I guess they must be totally useless against an Ork Mob /sarcasm.

L. Wrex

JSK-Fox wrote:Yeah, especially when you look at how far you scatter.
Or, when they come into contact with your chimera. You see, Chimeras are kind of allergic to them, and seem to explode in a storm of sneezes when in contact with so many orks and a power klaw.

Orks seem far more allergic to hull mounted flame throwers, and guardsman rocking up with 4xflamethrower squads, than chimera's are allergic to Powerklaws.

Just in my experience

Terminus wrote:But yes, nothing is quite as easy on the table as it sounds on the boards.

Quoted for the ultimate truth

Ailaros wrote:

AbaddonFidelis wrote:It's less expensive to neutralize an enemy unit by making it run away then it is to neutralize it by destroying it completely.

Well, sort of...

I mean, if we're talking about a unit that is stubborn, fearless, out of LOS of the psykers, or are inside a transport, then there is no way that the PBS can neutralize them, not matter how many points you spend on the PBS. Having literally zero effectiveness is hard on a points:effectiveness ratio.

Secondly, the PBS can't make them run away on their own. This means you need to spend a lot more points in order to actually neutralize them (like, say, spending 160 more points to tack on a manticore). This doesn't make them "less expensive".

Of course, everything I just said has been mentioned repeatedly. Either it's not sinking in, or there is some way we need to explain this better for you to catch on.

Seriously, Ailaros, this is what people are talking about when they say you completely reject units that you don't seem to like (it has nothing to do with massed infantry, I'm not saying you advocate that only).

1.) Lots of things don't work on stuff in transports, or work very poorly. Things like flamers, FRFSRF lasguns, some artillery pieces. However, only foolish players would argue that these things are bad because of it. You have the rest of the army. I will grant that you probably can't make a good army out of entirely PBSs, but then again, the codex doesn't allow that, so it's not something we need to concern ourselves with.

2.) Zero Effectiveness? S9 blast is zero effectiveness against transports? It's not optimal, but it's like a bonus power that you can use until the transport contents present themselves.

3.) Why is anyone even spouting this garbage about PBS needing support from other units to make something work? Every 100-165 unit in the game will not get the job done on its own. But it's not even as if you're using a PBS supporting unit in a way that is different from how you would use it if you weren't running a PBS. Example: Leman Russ (pick your favorite flavor). What does it do in a normal list? Kills stuff. What does it do in a list with PBS? Kills stuff after it's been hit with Weaken Resolve. Units supporting a PBS give up no part of the role they would play in your army otherwise.


These points aside, I'd like to argue that the oft stated 165 points for a PBS is not necessary. I've had good experiences running them on foot. I'll string them out in a line with majority in cover, making blast templates very poor performers against them. "Incoming" gives them a 2+ cover save, and is easy to get thanks to their good leadership if needed. "Get back in the Fight" lets them do their thing when situations are right. There are other chimeras in my list that can have their contents displaced in the odd case that they really need the protection. Even if they take a few casualties, they're still effective. Lowering Ld 9 by 5 instead of 9 still makes for a pretty tough test to pass.

In regards to psykic defense, the only one that is a real problem is Runes of Warding. Everything else is short ranged, so the squad will get a few turns before the Guard's unparalleled short range firepower smokes the offending psykic defense, or your psykers simply back up. Even against runes of warding, you're likely to get it off eventually, and even if you lose half the squad to Perils before you do, dropping a Farseer's Ld to 6 instead of 10 for one turn can give you a huge edge for that one turn.

To answer the OP: It's not required. It is an extremely useful tool to have in your kit. I've never been sorry when I've taken a squad. I've won tournaments without them.

In regards to psykic defense, the only one that is a real problem is Runes of Warding. Everything else is short ranged, so the squad will get a few turns before the Guard's unparalleled short range firepower smokes the offending psykic defense, or your psykers simply back up. Even against runes of warding, you're likely to get it off eventually, and even if you lose half the squad to Perils before you do, dropping a Farseer's Ld to 6 instead of 10 for one turn can give you a huge edge for that one turn.

To answer the OP: It's not required. It is an extremely useful tool to have in your kit. I've never been sorry when I've taken a squad. I've won tournaments without them.

Well said.

But weve got a new problem (and thats the reason (one of them) why a chimera is very useful for psykers) and that is Shadow in the warp. It just dont work against units inside transports (ok tyranids are often fearless, but you can make stealers or other exposed units run easier). And they often need the speed to drive around intervening terrain and the armour to fight off the nasty anti person fire and assaults.

Of course the first hype about the PBS had to be corrected. But the unit is always an annoying factor for the enemy, because he has to deal with them. One weaken resolve per game can be enough to be the decisive tiebreaker.