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PBS is good.
Combine with Ordnance Barrage.
Pinning festival!!
Pinning is good. Because even marine cant come back from pinning.

Problem is Farseer. They do shut PBS.
Psi-Hood? Yeah....would be problem.....but use your tank or meltagan most librarian would die instantly....Oh you say they have squad? shoot em more & more!

They are good but not must.
Fill enough fire power. Enough troop. Then time to PBS.


Personally,I love PBS. They are "sad" psyker. One mistake,they die. So,They came warzone to die.
It fit my Inquisitor theme. Hmmm nice!

I really like the PBS. It's a very cool unit that is something that a lot of Guard units aren't; good in every situation. They're the ultimate counter to the 'deathstar' units and Weaken Resolve combined with...everything else in the Guard codex can lead to you quite easily shutting down a unit a turn.

as for a 'must have', I'd argue no. They're not something I would include in every single list, but when you reach the 1750+ pts level you NEED a way to counter those nob bikers/assault terminators with Lysander/Seer Councils, and keeping them pinned/falling back for the entire game is a great investment of 100-odd points.

L. Wrex

Lycaeus Wrex wrote: but when you reach the 1750+ pts level you NEED a way to counter those nob bikers/assault terminators with Lysander/Seer Councils, and keeping them pinned/falling back for the entire game is a great investment of 100-odd points.

L. Wrex

Not really ... Te counter to nob bikerz is battlecannons or any str8 shooting.
Lysander + termys? drop their land raider on turn 1 and ignore them for 4-5 turns if not the whole game.
Seer council? kill it the turn fortune doesnt go off from your inquisitors unlimited range psychic hood.

its 165 as i said, if you actually want to use them. thats a LRBT.

edit: not saying theyre terrible or anything, theyre just not that useful compared to other options guard have. Most of my guard lists dont even use a single elites choice (except the allied inquisitor) ... and when they do its marbo for fun.

Lycaeus Wrex wrote:They're the ultimate counter to the 'deathstar' units and Weaken Resolve

Except any real deathstar unit is either fearless, or can chill out in vehicles or off the board for awhile.

Terminus wrote:How are you breaking those assault marines without weaken resolve?

You don't. You kill them. There are a lot of excellent firepower options available to the guard, not to mention other high power things in close combat.

Terminus wrote:How exactly are they "easily" stopped?

Null zone, turn 1 drop podding next to them, and killing them, psychic hoods, taking things to make them fearless or stubborn, pounding them with artillery, leaving your choice targets in transports or reserves, etc. etc.

Every army has ways of keeping their choicest units from disappearing off the board once a single morale check gets thrown there way.

It's a one-trick pony that relies on your opponent not knowing what's going on. Once they do, they counter, and a PBS can't counter-counter.

kill dem stunties wrote:

Lycaeus Wrex wrote: but when you reach the 1750+ pts level you NEED a way to counter those nob bikers/assault terminators with Lysander/Seer Councils, and keeping them pinned/falling back for the entire game is a great investment of 100-odd points.

L. Wrex

Not really ... Te counter to nob bikerz is battlecannons or any str8 shooting.
Lysander + termys? drop their land raider on turn 1 and ignore them for 4-5 turns if not the whole game.
Seer council? kill it the turn fortune doesnt go off from your inquisitors unlimited range psychic hood.

its 165 as i said, if you actually want to use them. thats a LRBT.

edit: not saying theyre terrible or anything, theyre just not that useful compared to other options guard have. Most of my guard lists dont even use a single elites choice (except the allied inquisitor) ... and when they do its marbo for fun.

See, this is one thing I dislike about people who play this game. Your under the constant assumption that everything wiill go right for you and your plan exactly when you want it to. That battlecannon may well scatter right off the biker unit, they may pass they cover saves, what is the actual likihood of metng that LR in Turn 1? BS4 DOES miss, and even if you succeed those Termis are now 6" + charge + consolidate closer to you. Why sacrifice a unit when I can reliably shut it down for the entire game?

Inquisitors's psychic hood is, and I'm going to call it now, cheesy. WAAC gamers still use them yes, but rumours have it that it should be remedied soon, and once it is, how do you propose we deal with Seer Council's now we've been denied our unlimited psychic hood? Relying on old-school loopholes to give your army an advantage does not a good gamer make.

Ailaros wrote:Except any real deathstar unit is either fearless, or can chill out in vehicles or off the board for awhile.

Errr, what? If they stay off the board, more power to me. It's a turn more that I can concentrate on killing the other 2/3rds of his army without the 'deathstar' to concern me. Having his major killy unit arriving in turn 2 or later is completely playing into my hands, allowing me to deal with the rest of his army with the majority of mine. And when it does arrive? I, if playing correctly, should *still* have that PBS around to shut it down. Win win? I think so.

What 'deathstar' is fearless? The few I can think of is either the Eldrad/Avatar or Death Company. One I wll try and outmanouver the whole game and the other I can simply try and kite.

Just because it doesn't suit your style of play is no reason to write off an entire unit. You have a knack of doing this in a lot of threads if I'm honest. If you want to play your Guard as a WW1 army with lots of infantry and artllery then be my guest, but don't be so close-minded as to write off choices that some people may be able to work, quite effectively, into their own lists.

L. Wrex

Lycaeus Wrex wrote:See, this is one thing I dislike about people who play this game. Your under the constant assumption that everything wiill go right for you and your plan exactly when you want it to.

You must really dislike yourself, then. You seem to be assuming that you'll always have LOS, and that your opponent will never pick them out if they're a serious threat, or that they'll always pass their psychic test, and that they'll never fail perils.

In a perfect situation, they can take your opponent's Ld by 10. But your opponent can do stuff to prevent exactly that. In non-perfect circumstances, they're not really all that great.

Lycaeus Wrex wrote:Errr, what? If they stay off the board, more power to me. It's a turn more that I can concentrate on killing the other 2/3rds of his army without the 'deathstar' to concern me. Having his major killy unit arriving in turn 2 or later is completely playing into my hands, allowing me to deal with the rest of his army with the majority of mine. And when it does arrive? I, if playing correctly, should *still* have that PBS around to shut it down. Win win? I think so.

Yes, they're staying off the board. No, you don't get to do anything to them before they show up and kill your stuff on their terms. This line of thinking would lead one to believe that drop pods WEAKEN marine armies.

Also, it doesn't matter how correctly you play if your opponent is throwing pie around or deepstrikes right next to them or outflanks them, etc. You're assuming that your opponent is utterly powerless to stop your PBS before you get a chance to throw lots of leadership-based carnage around.

Lycaeus Wrex wrote:

Just because it doesn't suit your style of play is no reason to write off an entire unit. You have a knack of doing this in a lot of threads if I'm honest. If you want to play your Guard as a WW1 army with lots of infantry and artllery then be my guest, but don't be so close-minded as to write off choices that some people may be able to work, quite effectively, into their own lists.

L. Wrex

I'm getting pretty sick of this across all the IG threads as well.

Ailaros wrote:You must really dislike yourself, then. You seem to be assuming that you'll always have LOS, and that your opponent will never pick them out if they're a serious threat, or that they'll always pass their psychic test, and that they'll never fail perils.

In a perfect situation, they can take your opponent's Ld by 10. But your opponent can do stuff to prevent exactly that. In non-perfect circumstances, they're not really all that great.

Nope, I don't assume anything. We play on a board, with dice. A lot of 40k is subjective; Terrain, cover, LOS, movement, difficult terrain checks, chance. Taking a unit out of this subjective environment, viewing it in a vacuum and saying 'Yes' or 'No' is, quite frankly, wrong. If this was the case then every single Tyranid unit (that pretty much relies upon good synergy with the rest of the army) would suck horribly. I'm merely stating that saying 'Unit X is rubbish because I'll just do Action Y' is both uninformative and detractful from the discussion.

You highlight, perhaps unintentionally, one of the greatest strengths of 5th Ed Guard; that pretty much all of our units are a threat. If my opponent focuses on my PBS for fear of what it could potentially (key word there) do, then they are ignoring other threats that have a much more direct way of causing damage. PBS, much like Tyranids, only really shine when working in synergy with other units. Taken on their own, yes, they may suffer to live up to the hype. Couple them with Ratlings or any ordance gun ever, and they suddenly become a much more potent unit.

Ailaros wrote:Yes, they're staying off the board. No, you don't get to do anything to them before they show up and kill your stuff on their terms. This line of thinking would lead one to believe that drop pods WEAKEN marine armies.

Drop pods DO weaken Marine armies. Reserving everything and denying your opponent his alpha strike only to counter it with your own on Turn 2/3 is massive, to say nothing about Marines multiplying 'easy' KP by bringing Drop Pods.

Alilaros wrote:Also, it doesn't matter how correctly you play if your opponent is throwing pie around or deepstrikes right next to them or outflanks them, etc. You're assuming that your opponent is utterly powerless to stop your PBS before you get a chance to throw lots of leadership-based carnage around.

Not at all. Again, you misinterpret what I'm saying. See my previous point on the entire Guard army being a threat They can deepstrike their unit right next to my PBS Chimera. If they scatter; sucks to be them, if they hit and destroy it; fine, but now they're in range of my entire army, and knocking out a Chimera is a fair trade for my Demolisher remaning all good and healthy don't you think?

L. Wrex

Theres no assumption, its not hard to pop a land raider honestly.

A battlecannon was just an example of anti nob bikerz, more likely i would use my manticores and just wipe them off the map.

Whats irritating is people who play poor level opponents think theyre the best, and post snarky remarks saying ig cant kill a vehicle in a turn of shooting? lol.

So a group of drop podding combi-melta wielding sternguard landing beside your leman russes really makes them a lot weaker, right?

Also, to counter nob bikers and their pesky 4+ cover saves, take an eradicator leman. One of the only times I'd recommend it.

kill dem stunties wrote:Theres no assumption, its not hard to pop a land raider honestly.

A battlecannon was just an example of anti nob bikerz, more likely i would use my manticores and just wipe them off the map.

Whats irritating is people who play poor level opponents think theyre the best, and post snarky remarks saying ig cant kill a vehicle in a turn of shooting? lol.

I'm not saying its hard to pop a Land Raider. Conversely, I'm not making the assumption that its an easy feat to accomplish either, something that I think you are doing. Taking out a Raider requires pretty much the sacrifice of not only a Vet/CCS squad, but also its accompanying vehicle. Whether or not such a trade is worth it depends on far more factors than can be accurately discussed on a forum (intervening terrain and how many tests a Terminator squad would have to take should you destroy that Raider, for example). Again, simply saying 'X is not worth it because I'll do Y' does not cut it.

You have no prior knowledge of the quality of opponents I play nor am I lauding myself as the thinking '[I'm] the best'. Assuming either is a huge leap of presumption on your part, not mine. I'm merely trying to promote the qualities of a unit that I feel is being unfairly represented.

JSK-Fox wrote:So a group of drop podding combi-melta wielding sternguard landing beside your leman russes really makes them a lot weaker, right?

The arguement wasn't focussed on drop-podding melta Sterns vs Leman Russes; if was focussed upon drop-podding meltas vs a PBS in a Chimera. People are arguing that they will eliminate my PBS by drop-podding counter units next to it, to which I respond 'Fine, but I'll do my utmost to target that unit with the Russes that you envisioned as less of a threat, and thus passed on targetting, in my subsequent turn'.

JSK-Fox wrote:Also, to counter nob bikers and their pesky 4+ cover saves, take an eradicator leman. One of the only times I'd recommend it.

Yeeesh, that's almost paramout to list tailoring. Your Eradicator may only find its niche in one out of X number of games. My PBS wll always be useful, regardless of the opponent.

L. Wrex

Sir Motor wrote:PBS is good.
Combine with Ordnance Barrage.
Pinning festival!!
Pinning is good. Because even marine cant come back from pinning.

To help with pinning tests you need to use the psykers before the casualties take place, making it slightly trickier than using them to help with breaking. With marines there is a narrow margin where you're hitting hard enough to cause a pinning check but not hard enough to cause a morale check. Failing morale, which most marines can do on purpose, unpins the unit and then they regroup in their turn.

PBS are a great unit, if your list can make use of them. I feel they are like many units in the guard codex, very much YMMV. I win my games without them, but my list is mech and tanks, so they wouldn't help out to much, but this does not mean another list won't make them work. Not good or nessecary in every list, but very useful in a few of them.

JSK-Fox wrote:Also, to counter nob bikers and their pesky 4+ cover saves, take an eradicator leman. One of the only times I'd recommend it.

Funny how that works out. While it does deny cover saves it wounds on a 3+ and doesn't cause instant death. An ordinary battle cannon causes instant death on a 2+ but does allow cover saves. Battle cannon loses half its wounds to cover saves and then doubles what's left thanks to instant death. In the classic and highly amusing implementation of nob bikers this means that the Eradicator inflicts about the same number of unsaved wounds in the end but fails to kill anyone, meaning no morale check. If one of the nobs is a painboy then the battle cannon negates the FNP but the Eradicator doesn't. Russ wounds on 2+, grants 4+ cover and denies feel no pain vs Eradicator wounding on 3+, no cover, but allowing 4+ feel no pain. You actually end up paying more for a worse weapon.

Ailaros wrote:

Terminus wrote:How exactly are they "easily" stopped?

Null zone, turn 1 drop podding next to them, and killing them, psychic hoods, taking things to make them fearless or stubborn, pounding them with artillery, leaving your choice targets in transports or reserves, etc. etc.

Null zone? What? What does forcing re-rolls of invulnerable saves have to do with dealing with psykers? Anything drop podding next to them are at best going to take out their transport, unless you're dedicating multiple pods to deal with a single 155 point unit (plus mystics are still widely available). Psychic hoods (again) have to be right on top of you (<12" away) because you can easily outrange it otherwise. There are of course the equally widely available Ordo hoods, but that's why I recommend taking two units of psykers if you're going to take any at all. I don't see how "pounding them with artillery" is any different from any other unit we have available; if that's the measuring stick, everything sucks. Considering their "choice targets" are melee monsters, keeping them in their transport or in reserve accomplishes their goal without even having to roll dice. etc. etc.

Lycaeus Wrex wrote:
Just because it doesn't suit your style of play is no reason to write off an entire unit. You have a knack of doing this in a lot of threads if I'm honest. If you want to play your Guard as a WW1 army with lots of infantry and artllery then be my guest, but don't be so close-minded as to write off choices that some people may be able to work, quite effectively, into their own lists.

L. Wrex

Quoted for great emphasis and justice.

DarkHound wrote:If a Seer Council is on the board, you aren't getting to use your powers. Passing a Ld9 test on 3D6 is tough, but then you roll a 12 and the Overseer executes several of them, dramatically reducing the potency of your powers even if you do cast them.

This is why you take two, which gives you a 60% chance to get the power off.

kill dem stunties wrote:Not really ... Te counter to nob bikerz is battlecannons or any str8 shooting

Battle cannons kill maybe 1 nob biker a turn. Their bases are large enough that they can be spread out enough that a blast will only hit one or two, and then between wounding (1s happen) and a cover save, you're averaging about a wound.

Raxmei wrote:To help with pinning tests you need to use the psykers before the casualties take place, making it slightly trickier than using them to help with breaking. With marines there is a narrow margin where you're hitting hard enough to cause a pinning check but not hard enough to cause a morale check. Failing morale, which most marines can do on purpose, unpins the unit and then they regroup in their turn.

Breaking does open them up to being edged off the board without a chance to regroup, but otherwise you make a fair point.

For 165 you can get 1 leman russ. 1 leman russ will get 1 chance to shoot at turbo-boosting nob bikers when the bikers have a 3+ cover. Then the bikers assault something. Probably that very same leman russ.

Yes, guard can just shoot the nob-bikers dead, but that's comparing a complete guard army to a single unit. That's comparing apples to oranges.

I think another way of thinking about it, is that yes, it's situational and doesn't always work, but a PBS can cripple or destroy a deathstar with very few resources. All that shooting you're talking about can now be allocated somewhere else. Instead of requiring multiple shots and spending ENORMOUS effort wiping out nob bikers, you hit them with pbs, kill a couple models and escort them off the table. All it takes is one guardsman within 6" and they can't rally, period.

Nah, I think the easiest way to use PBS is to hit a unit with them and just tank shock. Your tank can still shoot after tank shocking too. Since you have to pass your morale test before you can death or glory, if you get the combo off it's a sure winner. And it's not hard to do with the plethora of guard tanks that are available.

OH, a unit that is pinned that falls back still can't move, shoot, or assault in their next turn. You only lose pinning if you get assaulted while you're pinned.

I would say the PBS is needed in a top level all comers list. If for no other reason than I don't think there is much else in the Guard army that can stop an 800-900pt Thunderwolf Deathstar. I'm talking about 2-3 Lords with 2+/ 3++ and 5 friends with 1-2 more 3++. Moving 6, fleet d6 and assaulting 12" = alot of dead guard. Weaken Resolve is the best way to counter that unit. If the Weaken Resolve even slows the unit down a turn or two until a Runic Priest gets into range would be worth it for the Guard.

scuddman wrote:For 165 you can get 1 leman russ. 1 leman russ will get 1 chance to shoot at turbo-boosting nob bikers when the bikers have a 3+ cover.

That's why i'd probably use my Hydras instead of a Russ for the Nob bikers. no 3+.

DarkHound wrote:, and any army that doesn't have psychic defense is Fearless.

I call BS! Tau have NO psychic defenses WHATSOEVER and have avg leadership. In fact Ethereals are the only way to get fearless in our army and you may only have one (as crisis commanders are 1+)

Having played a couple games against them, I would give them an 11.5 out of 10. Against my Crimson Fists they managed to make both my Librabrian + Assault Terminators and a Tactical Squad run off the board after taking a couple casualties. They are extremely cheap for what they can do.

The hydra flak tank is better because of volume, but not by much. The bikes can't get their 3+ cover, but the 4+ exhaust cover for ork bikes stick around. On top strength 7 doesn't instant death, so the bikers get feel no pain and can do wound allocation shennanigans.

JSK-Fox wrote:So a group of drop podding combi-melta wielding sternguard landing beside your leman russes really makes them a lot weaker, right?

Also, to counter nob bikers and their pesky 4+ cover saves, take an eradicator leman. One of the only times I'd recommend it.

Hmm? if you want them to die i guess .... mystics = lol @ drop pod armies.

alarmingrick wrote:

scuddman wrote:For 165 you can get 1 leman russ. 1 leman russ will get 1 chance to shoot at turbo-boosting nob bikers when the bikers have a 3+ cover.

That's why i'd probably use my Hydras instead of a Russ for the Nob bikers. no 3+.

Except they will still get their latent 4+ cover, as thats NOT ignored by AA rule.

Also whoever said only 1 biker per lb marker is kinda odd, i could see max 2, if theyre spread out in a horizontal line max coherency, but 1 is only a scatter to the far outside model ...

Lycaeus Wrex wrote:Just because it doesn't suit your style of play is no reason to write off an entire unit. You have a knack of doing this in a lot of threads if I'm honest. If you want to play your Guard as a WW1 army with lots of infantry and artllery then be my guest, but don't be so close-minded as to write off choices that some people may be able to work, quite effectively, into their own lists.

Apart from being blatantly untrue, what does this have to do with PBSs?

Lycaeus Wrex wrote:You highlight, perhaps unintentionally, one of the greatest strengths of 5th Ed Guard; that pretty much all of our units are a threat.

Well, if all our units are threats, then I guess there's no real reason to talk about guard tactics or list building, now is there? Saying that lots of units in the guard codex is good does not mean any one unit is worth taking.

Lycaeus Wrex, sometimes, you just have to realize that you could be spending those points on a tank that could cripple a unit every turn, instead of maybe doing nothing, and perhaps even blowing their brains sky high! I'd take a Leman Russ Battle Tank, and then shoot down people. Your psyker battle squad tactic of causing a pinning test at ld 2 can result in significantly less casualties than blowing the unit sky high.

DarkHound wrote:Far, far, far from a must. They're basically an ordnance piece you can get in your Elites slot, which is not something to be under estimated. However, any amount of psychic defense is going to shut them down, and any army that doesn't have psychic defense is Fearless.

^ This.

They are quite situational with all the anti psychic defense and fearless armies running around now. I would rather spend the points on a unit I know will get it's points back.

Ailaros wrote:

Lycaeus Wrex wrote:Just because it doesn't suit your style of play is no reason to write off an entire unit. You have a knack of doing this in a lot of threads if I'm honest. If you want to play your Guard as a WW1 army with lots of infantry and artllery then be my guest, but don't be so close-minded as to write off choices that some people may be able to work, quite effectively, into their own lists.

Apart from being blatantly untrue, what does this have to do with PBSs?

Sorry bud, but you do often have a "if it doesn't fit with my army, then its ok but there's much better choices- like mine!" attitude at times =\ from what i read in the thread, the general consensus is that the PBS is a solid choice that you can't go terribly wrong with, If you feel you have the points to fit them in, but not a "must-have" unit. Your posts sometimes raise points that i don't agree with, but they more often make me think about a tactic/unit/idea in a new light. But you do have a strong "My way or the highway" vibe in your posts mate

PBS are very good, but are NOT a must have for an IG army to win, as echoed by many posters on the list.

The reason I do not take them is because there WILL be armies out there that can shut them down. But at least the PBS is another viable option in the wonderful dex that is the 5th ed IG book.

Jihallah wrote:Sorry bud, but you do often have a "if it doesn't fit with my army, then its ok but there's much better choices- like mine!" attitude at times =\

I DON'T.

ONLY.

TELL.

PEOPLE.

TO PLAY.

MASSED.

INFANTRY.

Where is this very wrong impression coming from?

I don't see a reason to ever not take these guys. They're cheap, versatile, and can have a potentially devestating impact on your opponent's army.

If your opponent has a pschic hood on the board just shoot the librarian. You're playing guard you have the fire power. But even if the librarian was invincible.... you don't keep good units out of your army just because there's a possibility that your opponent will bring a model that has a possibility of stopping it. That's a fear based approach to the battle. Many armies have no psychic defense whatever.
AF

AbaddonFidelis wrote:If your opponent has a pschic hood on the board just shoot the librarian. you don't keep good units out of your army just because there's a possibility that your opponent will bring a model that has a possibility of stopping it.

Very true.

That said, there's no reason to take something just because you can potentially counter your opponent's counter. This line of thinking quickly leads here.