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Is the Psyker Battle Squad a must include anymore or can you leave them at home? Last year I always had the Psyker Battle Squad when the meta was more Orks with Nob bikers and Nobs in Battle Wagons and lootas but it seems Marines are now flavor of the month again and most Marines have a Librarian for a hood and Marines auto regroup or are Stubborn or Fearless making the Psyker Battle Squad much less effective.

they are a must include.
there are still some hard core units out there that even guard shooting can't be certain to crack right away. most of these are answered pretty effectively by a psyker battle squad. Even if their power works only half of the time (psychic hood) it's potentially so devastating that it's worth it.
AF

Not a must, I'd say, but still relatively good.

Far, far, far from a must. They're basically an ordnance piece you can get in your Elites slot, which is not something to be under estimated. However, any amount of psychic defense is going to shut them down, and any army that doesn't have psychic defense is Fearless.

Agreed, far from a must, but still a very nice buy. It is also the best elite choice, so if you are running low on other slots and have a comfortable amount of scoring units, then they will be a good choice.

IMO, they should be run with 6+1 guys, and then if you have pts left after making the rest of the list, add some more

They are good, BUT I wish that they would re-do the model range for these. For the points they are great just make sure you mount them in a transport!!

Illumini wrote:Agreed, far from a must, but still a very nice buy. It is also the best elite choice, so if you are running low on other slots and have a comfortable amount of scoring units, then they will be a good choice.

IMO, they should be run with 6+1 guys, and then if you have pts left after making the rest of the list, add some more

Heresy! Everyone knows Marbo is the best

I would say they're not a must have, but still a fairly good choice. A large blast is going to be useful, and if you're playing something non fearless, you can cackle manically.

alot of the baddest meanest most hard core threats to guard are non fearless and hard to down with weight of fire. nob bikerz thunderwolves blood angels assault marines etc. the psyker battle squad means that instead of having to eliminate the whole batch you just have to kill 1-3 of them. when they run away you can redirect your other weapons to more immediate threats. the psyker battle squad is better than just 1 more shooting attack, which those points would probably end up being spent on. They're a force multiplier.

I wouldnt be asking "do I absolutely have to take them." I would be asking "why wouldnt I take them?"
AF


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just thought I'd speak up since I'm the only one who answered in the affirmative to OPs question

I also say neat, but not necessary. I've personally been tempted to include them, but haven't had really anything to tip the scales for me taking them.

As for the blast option, it's a leman russ, except with much worse armor, but with it taking up an elite slot. Likewise, it's like a hellhound with slightly worse armor and slightly more expensive, but not taking a FA slot. Maybe if I had these FULL, I'd consider it, but otherwise... meh?

As for the -LD option, it sounds so cool, but I can't really see it all that useful unless you put it in combination with stuff, which makes it really expensive. I mean, take a PBS in a chimera (to keep them safe) and a colossus, and you're basically being able to neutralize one unit a turn (and can daisy chain them to stay neutralized for the whole game if you daisy chain them). Likewise, you can combine it with a callidus. In any case you're talking about spending over 300 points. You're basically spending a deathstar number of points to stop a deathstar. This could be done better otherwise.

So they seem neat, but not really necessary, and not necessarily good, and can't do something I can't do otherwise. Basically, they're the same as a sentinel. I can feel the love, but I can't seem to ever justify actually putting them in my lists.

Ailoros

you said As for the -LD option, it sounds so cool, but I can't really see it all that useful unless you put it in combination with stuff, which makes it really expensive... In any case you're talking about spending over 300 points. You're basically spending a deathstar number of points to stop a deathstar. This could be done better otherwise.

if they make another squad run the guard player doesnt have to shoot them that turn. the unit was neutralized + the guard players weapons were freed up. it's better than killing them. the psychic choir acts as a force multiplier even when there is no death star to wipe. when there is it can really save your bacon.

AF

AbaddonFidelis wrote:Ailoros

you said As for the -LD option, it sounds so cool, but I can't really see it all that useful unless you put it in combination with stuff, which makes it really expensive... In any case you're talking about spending over 300 points. You're basically spending a deathstar number of points to stop a deathstar. This could be done better otherwise.

if they make another squad run the guard player doesnt have to shoot them that turn. the unit was neutralized + the guard players weapons were freed up. it's better than killing them. the psychic choir acts as a force multiplier even when there is no death star to wipe. when there is it can really save your bacon.

AF

How do you figure over 300 points? A max PBS is 110. Even with a chimera they're way under 200.

OP, they're not a "must have" but they're definitely worthwhile. I run a squad of 9 (overseer and 8 psykers) in a chimera as part of my standard list. Many's the game where I go first and cause enough wounds to an enemy unit close to their table edge and then Weaken Resolve them. And watch them run off the table. And I haven't found newer psychic hoods to be much of an issue, given their 24" range compared to the PBS 36" range.

Ailaros wrote: In any case you're talking about spending over 300 points. You're basically spending a deathstar number of points to stop a deathstar. This could be done better otherwise.

In most IG lists, you don't have to spend any extra pts to make the PBS effective. PBS needs long range firepower, and most IG lists include long range firepower for many reasons. The PBS enhances your long range firepower, and it is the best and cheapest way to handle deathstars. Hell, it was made to stop the dominance of nob bikers (and it did). Stopping deathstars can't actually be done better otherwise.

You really seem to underestimate the power of weaken resolve. It is not hard to force 25% casualities on one enemy unit, and then you can take that unit out of the fight for a turn/chase it off the board. It is useful against almost all armies and units. The blast option is nice so they are not useless against fearless enemies.

I think you are seeing them too much in the light of your own list, where I agree that they don't fit. They do however fit very well in many other IG armies.

don_mondo wrote:How do you figure over 300 points? A max PBS is 110. Even with a chimera they're way under 200.

Read Ailaros' post- add the price of a Colossus or a Callidus assassin.

AbaddonFidelis wrote:Ailoros

if they make another squad run the guard player doesnt have to shoot them that turn. the unit was neutralized + the guard players weapons were freed up. it's better than killing them. the psychic choir acts as a force multiplier even when there is no death star to wipe. when there is it can really save your bacon.

AF

Well you still have to shoot them first, to make them run... whilst its not hard to force 25% casualties on most squads, the dice gods/terminator armour/lack of LOS to bring your guns to bear means like isn't as easy as 1,2,3. However, it IS a fantastic combo against Deathstar's, and even if you don't face a deathstar, being able to force retreat on the squad you find the most threatening is powerful- as said, really really can save your bacon (my 10 CSM just arrived in the guard lines with meltaguns, bad dice rolls the first round of shooting means they both miss.....then their rhino went pop, reduced leadership, and goodbye squad T___T) . Also, as Illumini said, the blast option is nice- unless theres 7 or less psykers, that blast ignores marine FNP (BA, Plague-O's etc).


I think the general agreement is they aren't necessary, but they are a solid choice that work well with most of the codex.

Right. The thing is that the PBS is a force multiplier, but it is ONLY a multiplier: it can't be both good on its own and a multiplier in the same turn.

For example, a priest is a multiplier because he gives everyone rerolls. However, the priest also is able to use said rerolls to be DEATH INCARNATE to vehicles. Likewise Straken is good because he gives everyone furious charge. During any turn in which Straken gives furious charge, he is also giving furious charge to himself as he's playing super punch-out with a monstrous creature.

Meanwhile, PBS can weaken resolve, but, as mentioned you need something ELSE to actually cause enough damage to force a leadership test. You have to pay more because you need to spend points on the force that you want multiplied.

As such, a PBS would be a GREAT addition if you ALREADY had lots of units designed to force your opponents to make Ld checks. If you don't, however, you need to restructure your list around your support unit, instead of structuring your support around the core of your army.

That's why I never take them myself, but I could imagine building an army where they would be necessary to work right (like a artillery/mortar heavy list that threw out a lot of pinning checks a turn, for example).

Ailaros
you said: the PBS is a force multiplier, but it is ONLY a multiplier: it can't be both good on its own and a multiplier in the same turn.

Well I guess the psychic battle squad doesnt really need to be good on its own... if its surrounded by tanks and guardsmen who are just a stellar buy for what they cost vs their capabilities. So basically my answer is that you already are surrounded by units designed to make your opponent take leadership tests... leman russes guardsmen artillary etc. basically the whole guard army.

AF

Sure, if you're running a static gunline, then yeah, PBSs would be helpful.

Needless to say, this provides zero incentive for me to include them, as I actually like winning games.

meched up guard can't shoot?

Oh dear god Ailaros, don't let your mind be corrupted by the double standard ignore button pushing space wolves don't shoot Kroot suck bolters QQ there is only one way to play at that's my way AbaddonFidelis.

He runs SM/CSM last I heard, so I"m not sure if he even runs Guard.

As for his last post, seems like a lure, or more likely putting words in your post. I'd be careful getting too into your own opinons on the matter, it's like talking to a wall IMO, YMMV of course
__________
They are not on a 'need' basis, I will agree.
Their claim to fame as I recall it was for being a Hard Counter to the Nob Bikers which wer the fad at the time.

AbaddonFidelis wrote:they are a must include.
there are still some hard core units out there that even guard shooting can't be certain to crack right away. most of these are answered pretty effectively by a psyker battle squad. Even if their power works only half of the time (psychic hood) it's potentially so devastating that it's worth it.
AF

Not really. A lot of those units you want to "answer effectively" only give you a turn or two before they are rolling through your lines. PBS really need to be used in pairs if you really want to make Weaken Resolve even a semi-reliable part of your plan. Otherwise, a single squad is a good way to squeeze another large blast and AV12 hull into the list.


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Illumini wrote:I think you are seeing them too much in the light of your own list, where I agree that they don't fit. They do however fit very well in many other IG armies.

I think this cuts to the heart of the matter. Although I think at larger point values, even for Ailaros' crazy lists they could be quite useful. At that point his priest combat mobs are of respectable size (30+), you can throw Creed or Straken in for Furious Charge, and all of a sudden they are putting enough quality attacks out that a Weaken Resolve + bayonet charge = target unit broken and run off the board.

Terminus
why do you have to use them in pairs?

Because the first will fail its psychic test, or get cancelled with a hood, or get destroyed before it can do the job, so the second can pick up the slack. And if the first one succeeds, great, now you can wreck another target with the second.

What's that old adage? Take three things to get the job done, because one will get killed, one will miss, and the third will finally succeed. PBS are a bit too expensive for me to drop three of them, but two are still better than one.

It's just playing the odds.

ok I can see your reasoning. thanks.

I know PBS are force multipliers, but how many IG armies don't have at least some form of long range shooting?

Irdiumstern wrote:

Illumini wrote:Agreed, far from a must, but still a very nice buy. It is also the best elite choice, so if you are running low on other slots and have a comfortable amount of scoring units, then they will be a good choice.

IMO, they should be run with 6+1 guys, and then if you have pts left after making the rest of the list, add some more

Heresy! Everyone knows Marbo is the best

I would say they're not a must have, but still a fairly good choice. A large blast is going to be useful, and if you're playing something non fearless, you can cackle manically.

A large blast is going to be useful?
How many large blast do you already have in an IG army?
Hello Leman Russ ...

I think the PBS is a good choice. In a mech army, it can directly counter some things that might otherwise give you some trouble...like a big squad of scout bikes, terminators, or nob bikers.

Imagine a big squad of 10 man assault terminators. The pbs makes dealing with them ridiculously easy. Almost like an autowin.

I guess the thing is..the pbs isn't always good. There are a lot of times they don't do much. But they're cheap and absolutely golden in the situations where they are good.

The problem as well is that there really isn't anything that the PBS can do that isn't done elsewhere better. Want to get those assault marines off the board? Either hope they roll high with their fall back, and then try and juggle them off the board with a combination of 3D6" fall back and ATSKNF.

...or buy a basilisk and kill them all with a single shot...

The only thing that the PBS can do that others can't is make pinning actually useful, and trying to get a loltastic alpha strike when you opponent deploys too close to the board edge. However, there is a lot of stuff that's immune to pinning, or are otherwise fearless, and in any case your opponent still gets to make a regrouping check at full Ld at the beginning of their next turn, which means that you have to keep on doing it over and over (in which case, why not just kill it outright?).

Plus, once they start taking any casualties, they start sucking hard.

They're not terrible, but they're also something that your opponent can EASILY figure out how to stop, and then they'll be pretty useless (like, say, a deathstrike).

You can't rally if there is an enemy unit within 6". ATSKNF or not.

Ailaros wrote:The problem as well is that there really isn't anything that the PBS can do that isn't done elsewhere better. Want to get those assault marines off the board? Either hope they roll high with their fall back, and then try and juggle them off the board with a combination of 3D6" fall back and ATSKNF.

...or buy a basilisk and kill them all with a single shot...

The only thing that the PBS can do that others can't is make pinning actually useful, and trying to get a loltastic alpha strike when you opponent deploys too close to the board edge. However, there is a lot of stuff that's immune to pinning, or are otherwise fearless, and in any case your opponent still gets to make a regrouping check at full Ld at the beginning of their next turn, which means that you have to keep on doing it over and over (in which case, why not just kill it outright?).

How are you breaking those assault marines without weaken resolve? Even power blobs that can beat assault marines do so by attrition rather than winning combat and running them down (except in rare cases if you're using Furious Charge and maybe even a priest). And anyway, assault marines are not exactly the threat being discussed here. I'd like to see you "kill outright" a Seer Council. Pinning basically removes that unit as a threat for a turn, and gives you an extra turn to whittle them down. If you break them, you just run them down by keeping them from rallying.

They're not terrible, but they're also something that your opponent can EASILY figure out how to stop, and then they'll be pretty useless (like, say, a deathstrike).

How exactly are they "easily" stopped? They aren't a Land Raider, but they are harder to stop than say a squad of veterans or a CCS in a chimera. They have a 36" range and their abilities can be used on the move. Weaken Resolve is not a shooting attack, so it can be used even if the Chimera moved 12". A 48" threat range is not exactly "EASILY" stopped. Non-Ordo hoods are not as effective against them until they are right up in your face since you can easily move out of their influence. Runes of warding do suck, though.

AbaddonFidelis wrote:alot of the baddest meanest most hard core threats to guard are non fearless and hard to down with weight of fire. nob bikerz thunderwolves blood angels assault marines etc. the psyker battle squad means that instead of having to eliminate the whole batch you just have to kill 1-3 of them. when they run away you can redirect your other weapons to more immediate threats. the psyker battle squad is better than just 1 more shooting attack, which those points would probably end up being spent on. They're a force multiplier.

None of those things you named are very hard to take down with a bunch of s8+ fire battlecannons make nobz cry bloody tears of rage, blood angels assault marines ... are assault marines? if you mean with fnp ... well that wont help them agains things like ... a battlecannon! nice how versatile that thing can be. TWC are the most difficult of that list, but still far from impossible to kill.

Mabye its just me, but i can think of better things to spend 165 pts on (9x + chimera, without a chimera theyre dead or running off the board themselves turn 1 ...


Edit: Saw a question asking how they would stop the seer council with one shot ...

Well the guy is guard, so he has a daemonhunters inq with hood, so you just wait, turn 1-2 the fortune is going to fail, and they die that turn.

If a Seer Council is on the board, you aren't getting to use your powers. Passing a Ld9 test on 3D6 is tough, but then you roll a 12 and the Overseer executes several of them, dramatically reducing the potency of your powers even if you do cast them.