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It's also a squad that depends heavily on your local meta. If everybody is running fearless stuff (chaos, demons, or nids), or tons of psychic defense, then it's less good.

For all the poo-poohing that's been going on in this thread, there are some genuinely tough units that the PBS can deal with more efficiently than most other options avialable to the IG. Things like assault termies, nobs of all colors, Loganwing (at least for pinning), TWC, even blob platoons.

I don't use them myself, as I prefer a more aggressive style. I've also never used the IG at hard boys levels. The times I've ran PBS though I've generally been satisfied.

Ailaros wrote:

Jihallah wrote:Sorry bud, but you do often have a "if it doesn't fit with my army, then its ok but there's much better choices- like mine!" attitude at times =\

I DON'T.

ONLY.

TELL.

PEOPLE.

TO PLAY.

MASSED.

INFANTRY.

Where is this very wrong impression coming from?

Since you ask, I'll add that I also have gotten this impression very strongly from all your posts, Ailaros, especially in tactics and army lists forums. In our interactions specifically, you have a particular tendency to discount any kind of mech build or mech-based tactic and argue that infantry-based meltaguns backed by manticores & basilisks reign supreme. Also you seem not to consider the possibility that anyone would be able to make successful use of standoff tactics, and that the objective of all opposing armies is to close on your guard army at full speed, and that if they don't close, they automatically lose the game.

If it's not your intention to communicate this impression, then sorry about that.

Also your arguments often tend to take the form of "I can think of a situation where your tactic doesn't work, therefore it's worthless," and the corresponding "I can think of a situation where my tactic works, therefore it's the best." The technical name for this argument is the "fallacy of accident" or "exception that proves the rule." There's always going to be a situation where something doesn't work--a better argument evaluates whether or not the situation arises often enough to make the rule widely applicable.

My point here bears on the question of PBSs because they are pretty situational, maybe the most situational unit in the Guard codex (or maybe it's the cover-ignoring AP3 weapons). I don't think anybody would reasonably argue that PBSs are less useful--maybe even near-useless--in certain matchups. The question, I think, is whether the situations where PBSs *are* useful, and the degree to which they are useful, compensate for the bad matches.

good point biophysical.

That was well said, Flavius, I agree on all points.

Ailaros
This is why people think you advocate massed infantry.
http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/309665.page#1811713
http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/308861.page#1798391
http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/60/307615.page#1794436
http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/308425.page#1792408

-Nazdreg- wrote:
But weve got a new problem (and thats the reason (one of them) why a chimera is very useful for psykers) and that is Shadow in the warp. It just dont work against units inside transports (ok tyranids are often fearless, but you can make stealers or other exposed units run easier). And they often need the speed to drive around intervening terrain and the armour to fight off the nasty anti person fire and assaults.

I was thinking Shadow of the Warp is 18". If it is much longer than that it poses problems. Even though a lot of tyranids are fearless, from a tournament perspective, I don't think they are a point against PBS. Tyranids are pretty vulnerable to large blasts. Extra large blasts, especially ones that are S8+, are rarely wasted against tyranids, regardless of the AP.

Polonius hit the nail on the head.

Psyker battle Squad is good against certain things like Fateweaver, Nobs, Assault Terminators, Thunder Wolf deathstars, Lootas or Longfangs near the edge of the board.

Against these things you really want the Psyker battle squad because without it you can have an uphill battle.

I'm just finding more Mech Marines lately then match ups that the Psyker Battle Squad is good against. With mech marines they rush their librarian up 12 inches in a vehicle to the center of the board if they get first turn which makes it difficult to be outside of 24 inches from their Librarian.

However when I do run into a match up where I want the PBS I really want them back in. So I ended up putting them back in. Had a game vs Blood Angels last night. The PBS got off 1 shot with their large blast before the Librarian was in range. Didn't get any squads down to Weaken Resolve first turn. However the game 2 nights ago, they hit a squad of lootas and they ran off the board and then I nailed some nobs and made them run. PBS was MVP of that game for sure.

Considering dropping them down to the basic 6 psykers. 8 is better for the double toughness 4 to kill nobs and things with the large blast and in case you take casualties but it makes it cost less points if you run into a match up where the PBS is not good. What you think of 6 psyker PBS?

+1 Flavius, I can also add that arguments like this:

"I can think of a situation where your tactic doesn't work, therefore it's worthless,"

are generally shot down by Ailaros because they are "meaningless".

"Fallacy"

is also a favorite defense

@Ailaros: People havn't said that you only tell people to play massed infantry. What you seem to be guilty of, is seeing every option only in the light of your list/playstyle, and shooting down any option that don't fit your army/playstyle. I would guess that what you get the most flak from isn't related to this though, it's your incredible stubborness and refusal to allow anyone else to be "right". Does make for entertaining reads though

Lest this turn into a "pick on Ailaros" thread, though, I also want to mention that reading his posts made me think differently about both manticores and the economies of putting heavy weapons in blob squads. I actually changed a list to put autocannons in my blob just before locking the list in for a league based on something Ailaros wrote, and I've been really happy with the results.

Also planning to try out the plasma SWS Ailaros recommends. I can think of a lot of situations where that would be useful.

Little off topic, but I think everybody's contributions are important.

And he does make ace battlereports and conversions

In regards to the 6 man PBS: I haven't run one, but it seems like a pretty good investment for the points. It still can do a good portion of the things that a full size PBS can do, it is easy to hide, and it is cheap. In a tournament, if you run into one of those situations where it's garbage, you haven't lost many points (and hey, it still contests).

:-) Ailaros and I play slightly different IG lists (we play at the same store :-))... His stuff is much better painted than mine of course. He plays a pretty solid list, I tend more to the heavy weapons and other weird, situationally useful things... 'course, I also play several Marine armies, so I tend more to the things that caused me more problems...

Back on topic, I have to admit I'm planning on trying the PBS out, but with an escalation league running now they might have to wait a bit... Seem to be a sort of "swiss army" unit, might work sometimes, except against Eldar :-)