Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

Holy crap Deadshane. That's the story of my life on Dakka.

Great example here: http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/266425.page

Noob says, "I need advice with my list."
I say, "Alright, X, Y, Z."
Noob says, "STFU, not everyone agrees with your drivel on how to play Orks."
Thread spins out of control.

NO MODERATION:

Veteran is allowed to get his point across in a very HUMAN manner, true, WITH frustration, but unfettered by the moderators he can go on to tell the Noob why his Ideas ARE completely wrong and idiotic when considered by a true successful veteran playing this game. He lets slip that some ideas that the Noob has are "stupid" but in reality...THEY ARE. There are no PERSONAL insults hurled, and the point is delivered. Albeit not as politely as could be delivered, but the point is made. Post is not moderated/deleted.

Other's of similar mind read the unmoderated and undeleted post of the Veteran and for the most part...dakka appears to agree with him. Tells the Noob to follow advice.

If the Noob is adult enough, he reads the post and those following. His feelings may be hurt a bit, but the fact is that he needed to learn why his idea Sucked. People posted in conversational manners much like you'd find in an actual games store.

Here's how it would really go. :

Veteran is allowed to get his point across in a very HUMAN manner, true, WITH frustration, but unfettered by the moderators he can go on to tell the Noob why his Ideas ARE completely wrong and idiotic when considered by a true successful veteran playing this game. He lets slip that some ideas that the Noob has are "stupid" but in reality...THEY ARE. There are no PERSONAL insults hurled, and the point is delivered. Albeit not as politely as could be delivered, but the point is made. Post is not moderated/deleted.

Other's of similar mind read the unmoderated and undeleted post of the Veteran and the newb and split into four camps: those for the newb; those against the newb; those watching while eating popcorn (me); and those randomly trolling with random images and flotsom (again me). The first two groups call each other poopie heads and question their parentage of the other group. Occasionally they will PM each other with even more graphic statements and images. Threats will be made and chests beaten mightily. Repeat loop for 27 pages. The two groups spread to other threads which are happily minding their own business. People quit. Frazzled east a lot of popcorn.

Threads where that has occured:
DoP batreps.
BBF batreps or threads.
Threads about tournaments and the WC.

On the positive, you're all Newbs to me.

I don't understand why people feel the need to be rude to get their point across.

If the noob in question isn't going to take your advice, he's not going to take your advice. It doesn't matter if you're polite, or offensive, or type it out, gift wrap it, and mail it to him. I mean, does anyone here really think being offensive to someone is more likely to make them come around to your point of view? Really?

Will someone please very slowly and carefully tell me how posting to someone that their idea is 'friggin stupid' in any way contributes to helping someone's tactical capabilities develop? Because there's clearly something I'm missing here.

Frazzled wrote:

NO MODERATION:

Veteran is allowed to get his point across in a very HUMAN manner, true, WITH frustration, but unfettered by the moderators he can go on to tell the Noob why his Ideas ARE completely wrong and idiotic when considered by a true successful veteran playing this game. He lets slip that some ideas that the Noob has are "stupid" but in reality...THEY ARE. There are no PERSONAL insults hurled, and the point is delivered. Albeit not as politely as could be delivered, but the point is made. Post is not moderated/deleted.

Other's of similar mind read the unmoderated and undeleted post of the Veteran and for the most part...dakka appears to agree with him. Tells the Noob to follow advice.

If the Noob is adult enough, he reads the post and those following. His feelings may be hurt a bit, but the fact is that he needed to learn why his idea Sucked. People posted in conversational manners much like you'd find in an actual games store.

Here's how it would really go. :

Veteran is allowed to get his point across in a very HUMAN manner, true, WITH frustration, but unfettered by the moderators he can go on to tell the Noob why his Ideas ARE completely wrong and idiotic when considered by a true successful veteran playing this game. He lets slip that some ideas that the Noob has are "stupid" but in reality...THEY ARE. There are no PERSONAL insults hurled, and the point is delivered. Albeit not as politely as could be delivered, but the point is made. Post is not moderated/deleted.

Other's of similar mind read the unmoderated and undeleted post of the Veteran and the newb and split into four camps: those for the newb; those against the newb; those watching while eating popcorn (me); and those randomly trolling with random images and flotsom (again me). The first two groups call each other poopie heads and question their parentage of the other group. Occasionally they will PM each other with even more graphic statements and images. Threats will be made and chests beaten mightily. Repeat loop for 27 pages. The two groups spread to other threads which are happily minding their own business. People quit. Frazzled east a lot of popcorn.

Threads where that has occured:
DoP batreps.
BBF batreps or threads.
Threads about tournaments and the WC.

On the positive, you're all Newbs to me.

Ok then Frazz, do you DISPUTE that you can find better tactics and list advice at the other sources I've mentioned? (cause part of me would like to hear you actually claim that the tactics/list section here is JUST as informative as the blogs and solid club forum tactics out there....why?...laughter is healthy for the soul.)

If not, why would you say that is?

Nothing wrong with being rude to someone so long as it's well-written, and thus conveys some modicum of insight or reasoning to justify the bile.

@Nurglitch: Aspirationally speaking, however, wouldn't it be best to leave the bile out altogether--especially if you want your modicum of insight to actually be considered? When you have bile flung at you, it's hard to see past the bile.

Ah Nurgles
Eloquent verbal abuse
Shall I compare thee to a slummer's day
thou drivelling garbage can diver?

Sorry it isn't quite in iambic pentameter but was never any good with metre
(in any case was at short notice and for illustrative purposes only)

Have to disagree. Slight slights can turn into all out fights
so best to try and be polite imho

Deadshane1 wrote:

Frazzled wrote:

NO MODERATION:

Veteran is allowed to get his point across in a very HUMAN manner, true, WITH frustration, but unfettered by the moderators he can go on to tell the Noob why his Ideas ARE completely wrong and idiotic when considered by a true successful veteran playing this game. He lets slip that some ideas that the Noob has are "stupid" but in reality...THEY ARE. There are no PERSONAL insults hurled, and the point is delivered. Albeit not as politely as could be delivered, but the point is made. Post is not moderated/deleted.

Other's of similar mind read the unmoderated and undeleted post of the Veteran and for the most part...dakka appears to agree with him. Tells the Noob to follow advice.

If the Noob is adult enough, he reads the post and those following. His feelings may be hurt a bit, but the fact is that he needed to learn why his idea Sucked. People posted in conversational manners much like you'd find in an actual games store.

Here's how it would really go. :

Veteran is allowed to get his point across in a very HUMAN manner, true, WITH frustration, but unfettered by the moderators he can go on to tell the Noob why his Ideas ARE completely wrong and idiotic when considered by a true successful veteran playing this game. He lets slip that some ideas that the Noob has are "stupid" but in reality...THEY ARE. There are no PERSONAL insults hurled, and the point is delivered. Albeit not as politely as could be delivered, but the point is made. Post is not moderated/deleted.

Other's of similar mind read the unmoderated and undeleted post of the Veteran and the newb and split into four camps: those for the newb; those against the newb; those watching while eating popcorn (me); and those randomly trolling with random images and flotsom (again me). The first two groups call each other poopie heads and question their parentage of the other group. Occasionally they will PM each other with even more graphic statements and images. Threats will be made and chests beaten mightily. Repeat loop for 27 pages. The two groups spread to other threads which are happily minding their own business. People quit. Frazzled east a lot of popcorn.

Threads where that has occured:
DoP batreps.
BBF batreps or threads.
Threads about tournaments and the WC.

On the positive, you're all Newbs to me.

Ok then Frazz, do you DISPUTE that you can find better tactics and list advice at the other sources I've mentioned? (cause part of me would like to hear you actually claim that the tactics/list section here is JUST as informative as the blogs and solid club forum tactics out there....why?...laughter is healthy for the soul.)

If not, why would you say that is?

You mean like the hell on earth that is Stelek's Blog. Friend you're welcome to it.

You still didn't answer how calling someone stupid is helpful. They call you stupid back and I reach for the popcorn. But it deoesn't help your case, it just makes it fun to watch.

The biggest problem I see is that moderation is heavy (which is fine) but it is not equally applied. Advertisers, long time posters, and (seemingly) friends of the moderation team get more privileges as to what they get away with than the normal poster.

12thRonin wrote:The biggest problem I see is that moderation is heavy (which is fine) but it is not equally applied. Advertisers, long time posters, and (seemingly) friends of the moderation team get more privileges as to what they get away with than the normal poster.

Examples? Who are friends of the mods. This might be interesting.

@Deadshane

You hit the nail on the head. You laid out what happens here perfectly and I believe that is the main reason we have such gawd awful tactics and list advice here, now.

Maybe we should all just start a blog. Dakka's old malcontents blog of ass kicking. All ye who enter here, better know what you're talking about or prepare to get flamed!

Deadshane, that's a very valid point. However, I would say that the tactical advice on a blog is also narrower, as it is usually from (mostly) one person's point of view, or the point of view of a single group, instead of having a larger sampling.

I saw tactics at 'Ard Boyz for fantasy that I haven't seen on Dakka. But then, that's not usually the section I lurk! And of course, I guess I could post them up here now that I've seen them, if I was a little more motivated

Reecius wrote:@Deadshane

You hit the nail on the head. You laid out what happens here perfectly and I believe that is the main reason we have such gawd awful tactics and list advice here, now.

Maybe we should all just start a blog. Dakka's old malcontents blog of ass kicking. All ye who enter here, better know what you're talking about or prepare to get flamed!

Go for it.

Frazzled wrote:You still didn't answer how calling someone stupid is helpful. They call you stupid back and I reach for the popcorn. But it deoesn't help your case, it just makes it fun to watch.

He hasn't because he can't. There's a reason why the inability to argue a disagreement without resorting to insults and personal attacks is considered a significant character flaw. Outright calling something stupid doesn't work because it's a direct attack that immediately puts the recipient in a defensive state of mind. It's hard to be recpetive to someone's argument when they're opening belitting you.

It's actually possible to be directly blunt without being insulting. Instead of just writing something off as 'stupid' by saying a little less confrontational, like, 'You have a lot of X, which just doesn't work because of factors Y and Z,' which not only leaves the recipient not feeling like he has to immediately step up and defend himself, but also averts multiple pages of sniping back and forth, and you ending up feeling butthurt because the big bad mods came down on you for telling it like it is.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

12thRonin wrote:The biggest problem I see is that moderation is heavy (which is fine) but it is not equally applied. Advertisers, long time posters, and (seemingly) friends of the moderation team get more privileges as to what they get away with than the normal poster.

Unless you can back that up with examples, I'm going to call that a pretty big pile of BS.

Bookwrack wrote:

Frazzled wrote:You still didn't answer how calling someone stupid is helpful.

He hasn't because he can't.

Which may be because what was actually written was this:

Deadshane1 wrote:"that idea is friggin stupid"

Which is very different than "that person is friggin stupid".

I note none of the proponents of less moderation have responded to me as of yet.

only being in dakka a few days , but i find it both relaxed mature , reasonable , educational friendly and inspiring , which are qualities you will rarely find on any forum let alone one to do with competetive battles

Frazzled wrote:DoP batreps.
BBF batreps or threads.
Threads about tournaments and the WC.

Clearly, then, what we need is an DoP to play BBF in a WC-sponsored tournament.

with UNMODERATED thread leading up, and UNMODERATED batreps afterward

Hiliarity ensues!




Automatically Appended Next Post:

Nurglitch wrote:Nothing wrong with being rude to someone so long as it's well-written, and thus conveys some modicum of insight or reasoning to justify the bile.

Like, Stelek?

kirsanth wrote:

Bookwrack wrote:

Frazzled wrote:You still didn't answer how calling someone stupid is helpful.

He hasn't because he can't.

Which may be because what was actually written was this:

Deadshane1 wrote:"that idea is friggin stupid"

Which is very different than "that person is friggin stupid".

Employs Frazzled rule:
If you said thse statements to me in person would I buy you a drink or call you out? Thinks for a sec. Yea I might call you out on it.
Remember everything's local, what might be an insult in yuour locale might put you in the morgue in another.

Nurglitch wrote:Nothing wrong with being rude to someone so long as it's well-written, and thus conveys some modicum of insight or reasoning to justify the bile.

The only two reasons for being rude to a stranger are (1) because you are having a bad day and it slips out, and (2) because you want to belittle them and have some jollies at their expense. Both of these are bad, but the first one is at least only a sin of omission rather than commission.

JohnHwangDD wrote:

Clearly, then, what we need is an DoP to play BBF in a WC-sponsored tournament.

with UNMODERATED thread leading up, and UNMODERATED batreps afterward

Hiliarity ensues!

I'd pay good money for that.

kirsanth wrote:

Deadshane1 wrote:"that idea is friggin stupid"

Which is very different than "that person is friggin stupid".

That is the stupidest fecking comment I've ever seen on Dakka. Only a total feckwit slow descended from inbred fecktards would have written something like that.




Key point: calling an idea "stupid" is *exactly* the same as calling the person "stupid". Trying to split hairs here simply doesn't work.

Hey guys I have one more major suggestion. In the news and rumors on major topics (IE: Codex updates ect.) could we get the mods to keep the first post in the thread up to date? For instance, if tom starts the topic with what he heard, then two pages of discussion later salley puts a picture up, then 3 pages later gw make an annoucment and billy adds it I now have to read 5+ pages hoping there is more information in there. (and there may not be)

If a mod kept up with the thread and added the actual news to the first post of the thread then if I hadn't been follwing the thread or was a random visitor then I would be easily able to pick up on the thread.

hyperviper6 wrote:Hey guys I have one more major suggestion. In the news and rumors on major topics (IE: Codex updates ect.) could we get the mods to keep the first post in the thread up to date? For instance, if tom starts the topic with what he heard, then two pages of discussion later salley puts a picture up, then 3 pages later gw make an annoucment and billy adds it I now have to read 5+ pages hoping there is more information in there. (and there may not be)

If a mod kept up with the thread and added the actual news to the first post of the thread then if I hadn't been follwing the thread or was a random visitor then I would be easily able to pick up on the thread.

not getting ya HP. What?

Frazzled wrote:

Reecius wrote:@Deadshane

You hit the nail on the head. You laid out what happens here perfectly and I believe that is the main reason we have such gawd awful tactics and list advice here, now.

Maybe we should all just start a blog. Dakka's old malcontents blog of ass kicking. All ye who enter here, better know what you're talking about or prepare to get flamed!

Go for it.

You take gak too literally, brotha. I love Dakka. I am voicing my discontent because I care about the site. However, there isn't much to offer here anymore in comparison to what it was. At least not from my POV. I crack a few jokes here and there but that doesn't mean I want to leave the ship. I want to see Dakka improve.

One day a student in class said, "I have a stupid question." "No matter," replied the professor, "There are stupid people in this class who will think it is a smart question."

kirsanth wrote:

Bookwrack wrote:

Frazzled wrote:You still didn't answer how calling someone stupid is helpful.

He hasn't because he can't.

Which may be because what was actually written was this:

Deadshane1 wrote:"that idea is friggin stupid"

Which is very different than "that person is friggin stupid".

It really isn't. The human response to being hit with confrontational language is to be confrontational right back, and in this context, it's not far removed from directly calling the person stupid, because by implication, why else would they be including stupid things in their list. That's the problem with derogatorily attacking ideas in the context of say, army lists or wargame tactics.

Reecius wrote:

Frazzled wrote:

Reecius wrote:@Deadshane

You hit the nail on the head. You laid out what happens here perfectly and I believe that is the main reason we have such gawd awful tactics and list advice here, now.

Maybe we should all just start a blog. Dakka's old malcontents blog of ass kicking. All ye who enter here, better know what you're talking about or prepare to get flamed!

Go for it.

You take gak too literally, brotha. I love Dakka. I am voicing my discontent because I care about the site. However, there isn't much to offer here anymore in comparison to what it was. At least not from my POV. I crack a few jokes here and there but that doesn't mean I want to leave the ship. I want to see Dakka improve.

You think I am taking it in a bad way. I'm serious. See what you can do.

Frazzled wrote:

hyperviper6 wrote:Hey guys I have one more major suggestion. In the news and rumors on major topics (IE: Codex updates ect.) could we get the mods to keep the first post in the thread up to date? For instance, if tom starts the topic with what he heard, then two pages of discussion later salley puts a picture up, then 3 pages later gw make an annoucment and billy adds it I now have to read 5+ pages hoping there is more information in there. (and there may not be)

If a mod kept up with the thread and added the actual news to the first post of the thread then if I hadn't been follwing the thread or was a random visitor then I would be easily able to pick up on the thread.

not getting ya HP. What?

I think he means put all condense all new/rumours/pictures into the opening post of a new/rumours thread so somebody doesn't have to look through 5/6 pages for tidbits.

Not sure how to do that without a lot of coverage.