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JohnHwangDD:

No, not like Stelek. Kind of the opposite, really. It wasn't his rudeness or ego that bothered me so much as he didn't bother explaining his reasoning so that people who disagreed could gain any insight or explanation for why he held that opinion. He was simply willfully inarticulate.

Something I'll add is that calling an idea stupid is very different from calling a person stupid. Intelligent people can have stupid ideas (Sturgeon's Law) and are distinguishable from stupid people in being willing and able to see when their opinions are stupid and adjusting accordingly. Stupid people, on the other hand, mistake criticism of their ideas for insults to themselves, and feel that their ideas must be defended from attack, rather than critically examined and discarded if found to be unsound.

Kilkrazy:

Except we're not strangers, randomly meeting in a shop or on the street. We've specifically come to this forum to participate in written discussion. We're here to read each other's opinions, not mutter niceties as we try to go about unrelated business.

Nurglitch wrote:JohnHwangDD:

No, not like Stelek. Kind of the opposite, really. It wasn't his rudeness or ego that bothered me so much as he didn't bother explaining his reasoning so that people who disagreed could gain any insight or explanation for why he held that opinion. He was simply willfully inarticulate.

Something I'll add is that calling an idea stupid is very different from calling a person stupid. Intelligent people can have stupid ideas (Sturgeon's Law) and are distinguishable from stupid people in being willing and able to see when their opinions are stupid and adjusting accordingly. Stupid people, on the other hand, mistake criticism of their ideas for insults to themselves, and feel that their ideas must be defended from attack, rather than critically examined and discarded if found to be unsound.

Kilkrazy:

Except we're not strangers, randomly meeting in a shop or on the street. We've specifically come to this forum to participate in written discussion. We're here to read each other's opinions, not mutter niceties as we try to go about unrelated business.

Thats just stupid, asininely stupid, like the kind federal government level bailout stupid.

Whats interesting is that there are calls against OT, but I'd proffer thats the least moderated portion of this board.

"Too much moderation"? That is a shocking idea. If anything I would say its the opposite (but really the moderation level is fine).

Actually, I find that some posters already have a big enough ego, no need to let it grow by allowing them to constantly belittle anyone whose ideas are not as... evolved as theirs.

Why do you need to be rude to someone whose ideas you can see flaws in? Have we degenerated in our respective societies that in order to voice disagreement, we must attack ideas and not simply present a refutation of that idea and submit an alternate idea, which accounts for the flaws in the original submission?

I must admit that I don't always keep my tone in check, but I would expect that if I said something rude enough for it to get reported and a 3rd party (i.e. the mod) agreed I would be hit with the mod stick of rationality.

I voted for the "i ignore the bullxxxx option".

Nurglitch wrote:JohnHwangDD:

No, not like Stelek. Kind of the opposite, really. It wasn't his rudeness or ego that bothered me so much as he didn't bother explaining his reasoning so that people who disagreed could gain any insight or explanation for why he held that opinion. He was simply willfully inarticulate.

Something I'll add is that calling an idea stupid is very different from calling a person stupid. Intelligent people can have stupid ideas (Sturgeon's Law) and are distinguishable from stupid people in being willing and able to see when their opinions are stupid and adjusting accordingly. Stupid people, on the other hand, mistake criticism of their ideas for insults to themselves, and feel that their ideas must be defended from attack, rather than critically examined and discarded if found to be unsound.

Kilkrazy:

Except we're not strangers, randomly meeting in a shop or on the street. We've specifically come to this forum to participate in written discussion. We're here to read each other's opinions, not mutter niceties as we try to go about unrelated business.

I have met only about a dozen of the members of the forum, and I don't come here to be insulted. I only let close friends do that.

Kilkrazy wrote:

Nurglitch wrote:JohnHwangDD:

No, not like Stelek. Kind of the opposite, really. It wasn't his rudeness or ego that bothered me so much as he didn't bother explaining his reasoning so that people who disagreed could gain any insight or explanation for why he held that opinion. He was simply willfully inarticulate.

Something I'll add is that calling an idea stupid is very different from calling a person stupid. Intelligent people can have stupid ideas (Sturgeon's Law) and are distinguishable from stupid people in being willing and able to see when their opinions are stupid and adjusting accordingly. Stupid people, on the other hand, mistake criticism of their ideas for insults to themselves, and feel that their ideas must be defended from attack, rather than critically examined and discarded if found to be unsound.

Kilkrazy:

Except we're not strangers, randomly meeting in a shop or on the street. We've specifically come to this forum to participate in written discussion. We're here to read each other's opinions, not mutter niceties as we try to go about unrelated business.

I have met only about a dozen of the members of the forum, and I don't come here to be insulted. I only let close friends do that.

only my mom, wife, and various weiner dogs get that privilege and thats mostly because they are really vicious cruel and petty, and thats just my mom.

@ Nurglitch

Your point is correct, calling an idea stupid is different than calling a person stupid. However, does it take that much effort to phrase something in a polite way? The point here is, why be confrontational, and use words that are likely to evoke a defensive reaction when they are not necessary?

Isn't part of being intelligent the ability to discuss an issue in a manner that will lead to mutual enlightenment? If you use phrases and words that are likely to evoke defensive responses, are you not missing the goal of have a debate in the first place?

I do stupid things. So do you.
I expect to be called on them.

Even posts with more spite than tact, like JohnHwangDD's recent forays into responding to my posts have been, this is not an issue. Say what you mean, mean what you say. Even if that means saying something like, "That is the stupidest fecking comment I've ever seen on Dakka. Only a total feckwit slow descended from inbred fecktards would have written something like that", I approve of posting it if you think it's true.

If people are suddenly so thin-skinned that having their brilliance denied online is painful, then the problem is not going to go away when responses get candy-coated.

Should everyone be polite? I think so.
Is it polite to call a spade a spade? I think so.

Do I think fielding only rippers as troops is stupid?
Yes, and I would not hesitate to say so to someone--in person or online.

Does this mean that the person doing that is stupid?
No. Not at all, in fact they probably have a reason/excuse to do so.

Carry on.
/


Though oddly, this thread is making me re-think my initial position a bit.

Nurglitch wrote:JohnHwangDD:

No, not like Stelek. Kind of the opposite, really. It wasn't his rudeness or ego that bothered me so much as he didn't bother explaining his reasoning so that people who disagreed could gain any insight or explanation for why he held that opinion. He was simply willfully inarticulate.

Something I'll add is that calling an idea stupid is very different from calling a person stupid.

Intelligent people can have stupid ideas (Sturgeon's Law)

I completely understand what you're saying, however, I also think that you're very wrong in how you're applying your knowledge. We aren't talking about well-grounded things here in a rarified ivory tower. We're primarily talking about opinions. The vast bulk of what appears on Dakka is opinion, anecdotally-formed. So it's not detached, but rather it's intensely personal.

Calling a person's opinion stupid *is* calling the person stupid.

Calling a person's idea or opinion is a great way of trying to get around rules against being deliberately rude.

edit: @ Kirsanth

The point is, that why say

"fielding only rippers as troops is stupid"

instead of

"fielding only rippers as troops is flawed because of x, y and z."

Which statement do you think would be more helpful? That is why you are responding to someone who has such an idea to begin with, right? To be helpful?

Frazzled wrote:

You mean like the hell on earth that is Stelek's Blog. Friend you're welcome to it.

That little "hell on earth" is about 100 times more informative and insightful than the tactics/list section here on Dakka. I'm intelligent enough to cut thru all the arrogant BS...I dont need a moderator to make sure the site is rated 'G' so my feeling arent hurt.

If you think the tactics section here is any SORT of a match for the ideas posted there or on any of the other blogs I've mentioned...I feel bad for you, and congratulate any opponents you've got in 40k.

You still didn't answer how calling someone stupid is helpful. They call you stupid back and I reach for the popcorn. But it deoesn't help your case, it just makes it fun to watch.

In and of itself it isnt helpful, but what IS helpful is to be able to put ones point across in ones own words, maybe even posting a little bit of human emotion in there to get ones point across on important little tidbits. Being able to do this without having a parental figure standing over your shoulder helps in writing a creative and interesting response.

Hence...informative blogs, and boring big name forums' tactics sections.

Kilkrazy:

I think you're mistaking people actively going out of their way to insult each other with the common rudeness that people perceive whenever anyone does anything besides validate each other's opinion. As it goes disagreeing with people is commonly considered rude, at least in Canada. On message boards such as Dakka Dakka and Warseer and Portent I've been called oppositional, arrogant, and worse besides because I take it as given that a discussion requires criticism as well as agreement. With all the different backgrounds and the diversity of literacy on these boards it's just a fact that people are going to take offense to comments that come off as rude which were not intended to be insults or attacks.

Maybe it's my philosophy background, but I'm used to being able to tell someone "Your ideas sucks, and here's why", have them reply in kind, and then go get a beer and continue the discussion once the conference particulars are done for the day. I'm used to casual rudeness so long as it's concerned with building better ideas. Being rude because someone thinks it's funny or because you want to take someone down a peg, to insult someone, that's obviously not okay.

That isn't the way everyone behaves, though, so you are forcing your confrontational idea of personal interaction on everyone else. Also on the Internet any insults are even more likely to be taken the way that perhaps they may not have been intended.

What is actually wrong about being polite?

Deadshane1 wrote:

Frazzled wrote:

You mean like the hell on earth that is Stelek's Blog. Friend you're welcome to it.

That little "hell on earth" is about 100 times more informative and insightful than the tactics/list section here on Dakka. I'm intelligent enough to cut thru all the arrogant BS...I dont need a moderator to make sure the site is rated 'G' so my feeling arent hurt.

It also consists of about ten buttmuncher cultists who listen with rabid cultlike fascination. I'll stay with a forum format that has more people than can fit in my car thank you very much.

If you think the tactics section here is any SORT of a match for the ideas posted there or on any of the other blogs I've mentioned...I feel bad for you, and congratulate any opponents you've got in 40k.

1. Did I?
2, Actually you should feel bad for them. They have to deal with me live and in person. Thats generally considered a crime against humnaity in most countries.

Kilkrazy wrote:That isn't the way everyone behaves, though, so you are forcing your confrontational idea of personal interaction on everyone else. Also on the Internet any insults are even more likely to be taken the way that perhaps they may not have been intended.

What is actually wrong about being polite?

Sort of like life in general...off of the internet, wouldnt you say?

Last time someone flipped me off on the freeway for cutting them off I didnt see a moderator swoop down from above to stop him from telling me I was driving like an asshat. I took the finger, got pissed off myself...but later realised "damn, I was driving like an asshat."

Good thing God doesnt moderate life.

Deadshane1 wrote:In and of itself it isnt helpful, but what IS helpful is to be able to put ones point across in ones own words, maybe even posting a little bit of human emotion in there to get ones point across on important little tidbits. Being able to do this without having a parental figure standing over your shoulder helps in writing a creative and interesting response.

I find responses more "creative and interesting" when they don't just call my idea stupid! And proceed to point me to the "internet hawtness" one that anybody reading a codex/army book for 5 minutes would have picked up on...

Now granted, that's not how it always goes, but sometimes I see "experts" getting upset at someone wanting to use a sub-optimal list/tactic. That's a valid thing to want to do... and one you won't find discussed on most of the blogs you're citing.

Again, they'll give you great tactics and insights- but narrow ones, imho. It's certainly a good point and people who are looking for that kind of tactical advice (and sometimes I am) should certainly frequent them for that... but not expect the exact same thing to be the only type of tactic/advice "allowed" on Dakka... since it's a free forum and people can post (and try) what they like!

Ketara wrote:I don't understand why people feel the need to be rude to get their point across.

If the noob in question isn't going to take your advice, he's not going to take your advice. It doesn't matter if you're polite, or offensive, or type it out, gift wrap it, and mail it to him. I mean, does anyone here really think being offensive to someone is more likely to make them come around to your point of view? Really?

Will someone please very slowly and carefully tell me how posting to someone that their idea is 'friggin stupid' in any way contributes to helping someone's tactical capabilities develop? Because there's clearly something I'm missing here.

I sometimes think it's an american thing, then an american posts something really polite and intelligent. And I think wow.

I was always taught an empty can rattles the most.
So when I see someone verbally beating some other poster to death,
I think "what a tosser" and proceed to ignore everything that poster says.
The only reason to be agressive when posting, is when your logic is weak
Good advice like the truth sticks up for itself.

loki old fart wrote:

Ketara wrote:I don't understand why people feel the need to be rude to get their point across.

If the noob in question isn't going to take your advice, he's not going to take your advice. It doesn't matter if you're polite, or offensive, or type it out, gift wrap it, and mail it to him. I mean, does anyone here really think being offensive to someone is more likely to make them come around to your point of view? Really?

Will someone please very slowly and carefully tell me how posting to someone that their idea is 'friggin stupid' in any way contributes to helping someone's tactical capabilities develop? Because there's clearly something I'm missing here.

I sometimes think it's an american thing, then an american posts something really polite and intelligent. And I think wow.

I was always taught an empty can rattles the most.
So when I see someone verbally beating some other poster to death,
I think "what a tosser" and proceed to ignore everything that poster says.
The only reason to be agressive when posting, is when your logic is weak
Good advice like the truth sticks up for itself.

I was taught be polite, because the bastard you just insulted may be armed and not from this country.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Deadshane1 wrote:

Kilkrazy wrote:That isn't the way everyone behaves, though, so you are forcing your confrontational idea of personal interaction on everyone else. Also on the Internet any insults are even more likely to be taken the way that perhaps they may not have been intended.

What is actually wrong about being polite?

Sort of like life in general...off of the internet, wouldnt you say?

Last time someone flipped me off on the freeway for cutting them off I didnt see a moderator swoop down from above to stop him from telling me I was driving like an asshat. I took the finger, got pissed off myself...but later realised "damn, I was driving like an asshat."

Good thing God doesnt moderate life.

And what happens when you stop at your house and they are there too?

Frazzled wrote:

It also consists of about ten buttmuncher cultists who listen with rabid cultlike fascination. I'll stay with a forum format that has more people than can fit in my car thank you very much.

Like I said, I'm smart enough to cut thru the chaff. I dont need a moderator stop those little "buttmunchers" for me.

Kilkrazy wrote:That isn't the way everyone behaves, though, so you are forcing your confrontational idea of personal interaction on everyone else. Also on the Internet any insults are even more likely to be taken the way that perhaps they may not have been intended.

What is actually wrong about being polite?

It's not about being intentionally rude, you are focusing on one tiny part of things.

It's about holding people accountable for what they say. On the internet that is through calling them on a bad idea. Some people are more or less civil in how they do this. The end result though, is the interplay of ideas. If it gets a little hot in the process, oh well. Better to come to a great idea and ruffle some feathers than pat each other on the back all day and end up with a bunch of crap.

Deadshane1 wrote:

Frazzled wrote:

It also consists of about ten buttmuncher cultists who listen with rabid cultlike fascination. I'll stay with a forum format that has more people than can fit in my car thank you very much.

Like I said, I'm smart enough to cut thru the chaff. I dont need a moderator stop those little "buttmunchers" for me.

And thats the only view you're going to get.

It comes down to this. Some items on this thread have been helpful and may lead to other points of disciussion or at least looking at the issues in more detail.

But not politeness. If you (generic, not you specifically Deady) feel the need to be "honest," to call posters's views stupid, thats just not going to be permitted with regularity here. I can't believe people are arguing that. You want a blog where posters can be ridiculed and called stupid, start your blog and go there. This is a larger forum with many members from many different countries. Certain minimal standards apply. Thats not going to change. If you're butthurt about that, we'd like to say we're sorry, but really we're not, not at all.
Or in the immortal words of TBone:

RiTides wrote:I find responses more "creative and interesting" when they don't just call my idea stupid!

Unless I am sorely mistaken, no one is saying it's good practice to say "Stupid!" and leave it at that.
See JohnHwangDD's response to me on page 3 as a potentially ironic example.

Frazzled wrote:

kirsanth wrote:

Bookwrack wrote:

Frazzled wrote:You still didn't answer how calling someone stupid is helpful.

He hasn't because he can't.

Which may be because what was actually written was this:

Deadshane1 wrote:"that idea is friggin stupid"

Which is very different than "that person is friggin stupid".

Employs Frazzled rule:
If you said thse statements to me in person would I buy you a drink or call you out? Thinks for a sec. Yea I might call you out on it.
Remember everything's local, what might be an insult in yuour locale might put you in the morgue in another.

You could do with actually using that rule yourself instead of just quoting it. I have never dealt with you on a MOD front or in the OT section and yet I have found you to be rude and demeaning to many people and have dragged down many a thread. You shouldn't be a MOD.

RiTides wrote:

Again, they'll give you great tactics and insights- but narrow ones, imho. It's certainly a good point and people who are looking for that kind of tactical advice (and sometimes I am) should certainly frequent them for that...

Narrow indeed...thats why one should'nt restrict him/herself to a single source. I go to many forums/blogs and get lots of ideas. I take what I want, and leave the rest, just like your salad bar.

but not expect the exact same thing to be the only type of tactic/advice "allowed" on Dakka... since it's a free forum and people can post (and try) what they like!

Problem is...its NOT a free forum, you cannot post what you like. Try going and telling Frazz that there is no god then putting logic behind your reasoning. "SEEN IT!" You'll find some things are indeed taboo.

(again frazz, nuttin but love for ya....you're my favorite mod! You're the one that pisses people off...thats prolly why!)

To be honest, the main issues raised seem to be forms of grammar, repeated topics, and general dumbass behaviour.


Wouldnt something like an age limit in certain topics help to some degree?
Granted, the accounts made to date would comply with this (leaving new accounts to input a fake age) but even then it cuts alot of it out.
Simply adding in an age limit to certain areas of the forum could help a little. (maybe not a huge deal, but a little improvement is better than no improvement)

I myself tend to ignore topics i dislike, however, it woukld be nice to not have to ignore alot of topics simply to find one worth reading.




As posted previously, some topics may be pointless, but this would come down to ones personal opinion.

A player looking for tactics would have no use for a topic on fluff, in which they would class as pointless to them.
My point being, alot of players look for different things on dakka, in what way would it be possible to class such topics as useful or junk? (ok, obvious ones like the same question, just an hour later, and ones with titles you cant actually read through a sea of question marks apply)
So, is there any possible way of sorting out topics of use, and topics to scrap?



Ill also second nurglitch's last post.

Of course the problem with all forums is that they encourage contact with "other people". And these other people are to be feared and disliked.

fullheadofhair wrote:

Frazzled wrote:

kirsanth wrote:

Bookwrack wrote:

Frazzled wrote:You still didn't answer how calling someone stupid is helpful.

He hasn't because he can't.

Which may be because what was actually written was this:

Deadshane1 wrote:"that idea is friggin stupid"

Which is very different than "that person is friggin stupid".

Employs Frazzled rule:
If you said thse statements to me in person would I buy you a drink or call you out? Thinks for a sec. Yea I might call you out on it.
Remember everything's local, what might be an insult in yuour locale might put you in the morgue in another.

You could do with actually using that rule yourself instead of just quoting it. I have never dealt with you on a MOD front or in the OT section and yet I have found you to be rude and demeaning to many people and have dragged down many a thread. You shouldn't be a MOD.

Wait, you've never dealt with me as a mod or in the OT. How the hell else have you dealt with me then?
Come on, you know want to say it. I'm the Worst Mod Evah! In fact I should be reported. The irony of reporting a mod when you yourself are espousing a more laissez faire view of modding would be paritcularly sweet. Do it. You know you want to. Frazzled outcast un clean! Do it...

Frazzled wrote:
Thats just stupid, asininely stupid, like the kind federal government level bailout stupid.

Employs Frazzled rule:
If you said thse statements to me in person would I buy you a drink or call you out? Thinks for a sec. Yea I might call you out on it.
Remember everything's local, what might be an insult in yuour locale might put you in the morgue in another.

I was taught be polite, because the bastard you just insulted may be armed and not from this country.

Anyone else see it or is it just me?

Awesome - and all in one thread.

fullheadofhair wrote:

Frazzled wrote:
Thats just stupid, asininely stupid, like the kind federal government level bailout stupid.

Employs Frazzled rule:
If you said thse statements to me in person would I buy you a drink or call you out? Thinks for a sec. Yea I might call you out on it.
Remember everything's local, what might be an insult in yuour locale might put you in the morgue in another.

I was taught be polite, because the bastard you just insulted may be armed and not from this country.

Anyone else see it or is it just me?

Awesome - and all in one thread.

What getting butthurt now? I thought thats what you wanted? Suck it up and be man, or at least put on your big girls panties for once. Come on, I'm just being honest and human.

That is the stupidest fecking comment I've ever seen on Dakka. Only a total feckwit slow descended from inbred fecktards would have written something like that.




Key point: calling an idea "stupid" is *exactly* the same as calling the person "stupid". Trying to split hairs here simply doesn't work.

An idea does not portray someones IQ, personality or any other qualities.
It is simply an idea that may have not been thought out by someone fully, there for, making the idea dumb, and not the actual person.

Now, to speak in the same terms, if you want a fething dumbass post, re-read your one ive just quoted.

I think this thread has gone WAY downhill and we need some red tag wraps around some words from a moderator to re-rail this thread back to why DakkaDakka could or could not be going down a hill.