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I hope the codex reflects both their roles in the inqusition and ecclesiarchy though with karamazov popping up in the GK codex i fear they will go purely ecclesiarchy. I was surprised to see the other two ordos represented in the codex. Hopefully the close to mid range theme stays though adding missile launchers to retributors may ease the reliance on exorcists.

I'd like to see celestians get the option of bolt pistols and chainswords, this would give the codex a good, solid but not ridiculous cc unit hitting on 3's but at s3, bung in a canoness and away you go. Dominions i think could be played with, their special weapon options could be transferred to the retributors and overhaul them completely maybe mount them only in an immo and have a h flam and sis superior and 4 sisters with combat shields, bolt pistols and chainswords a chunkier foil to the hit and run seraphim maybe.

Inquisitors, hmm in my mind just cut and paste from the GK codex i think they're great what they always should have been. I like the fact that they are the chamber militant of the ordo hereticus it gives them character and purpose above that of wars of faith and guarding churches and pushes their elite status over guard. You could have the ordo hereticus inq as one HQ choice (Inquisitorial strikeforce) and say a cardinal militant (war of faith) as another and they give access to two types of unit. Inq henchman and frateris militia/redemptionist cultists or such like.

Technically not all of those are immo spam, some having 2 or 3...but I get the point...I would run them if I had SoB...

spireland wrote:I hope its pretty close to the current dex, just with some fifth edition additions.

Unfortunately one of the main things I'm expecting is a fifth edition removal: the replacement of the armoury by limited by-unit upgrade lists.

For Dominions, I think giving them Scouts would work. Give them a role aside from simply spamming more weapons.

im2randomghgh wrote:Technically not all of those are immo spam, some having 2 or 3

Which isn't spam at all.

If two of the same unit is spam then there is no good non-spam army.

At any rate, a good player can win with a bad army list, this is hardly news. After all, we're winning with Sisters to begin with, and that's hardly the best army list around.

Unrelated: I hope in the (hopefully) 1st quarter Tau dex update we get to play with demiurgs, they just seem so mysterious...Right now we only get them in BFG.

Zweischneid wrote:

fox-light713 wrote:Last I heard matt ward was not the one writing the SoB codex, but Phil Kelly is supposedly the one writing it.

So novice sisters will now be stealing Thunderhawks to cruise mischiveously and promiscously around Sister town with their Sister-claws and Sister-belts while Saint Celesntine's troubled underdog-childhood will be revealed, though she now turns into "the most intelligent Dark Elder Sister of all" who lops black-holes-in-a-box at her rival Sisters while cackling away happily like bugs bunny on carrot pay day?

Please Lord no.. Sisters sure deserve better than Phail Kelly.

I honestly think the Space Wolves was Phil Kelly parodying the space marines. His work fluff wise on the Orks, Eldar and Dark Eldar is just awesome, honestly. Yes, the same guy who came up with an ork warboss going back in time to kill himself to get two copies of his favorite gun is from the same guy who wrote the wolf dex.

Zweischneid wrote:

fox-light713 wrote:Last I heard matt ward was not the one writing the SoB codex, but Phil Kelly is supposedly the one writing it.



So novice sisters will now be stealing Thunderhawks to cruise mischiveously and promiscously around Sister town with their Sister-claws and Sister-belts while Saint Celesntine's troubled underdog-childhood will be revealed, though she now turns into "the most intelligent Dark Elder Sister of all" who lops black-holes-in-a-box at her rival Sisters while cackling away happily like bugs bunny on carrot pay day?

Please Lord no.. Sisters sure deserve better than Phail Kelly.

Hay I wanted Phill kelly for my new nids dex instead i got Robin fething cruddence. I know our dex is still ok but we lost a lot of flavor that made nids awesome. Trust me phill will do your sisters justice unlike robin fething cruddence!

Yet Robin Cruddace did a decent job of the Guard codex, so we shall just have to wait until his next work to see which of them was a fluke, IG or nids.

Either one of them is better than ward for me. I don't think the 'nid codex is bad anyway... it's more the FAQs that need re-writing.

I just want 2 things out of this codex:

1) Keep my troop spam viable - Fluff has shown plenty of times that whole convents goto war... love that.

2) Fix this whole "Over/Under" squad size mess with faith - It is a running gag at my FLGS that folks have NO idea how it works and think I'm just making crap up... I litterally have to have a separate copied sheet for my opponent (which I'm fairly they're just messing with me, but I'm terrible with sarcasm).

Melissia wrote:Either one of them is better than ward for me. I don't think the 'nid codex is bad anyway... it's more the FAQs that need re-writing.

Speak for yourself. Cruddace produced the most overpowered (IG) and underpowered (Nid) Codex of 5th. It clearly shows his inability in grasping the working mechanics of 40K. His treatment of the Hive War shows utter ignorance of the fluff too.

Kelly is far worse. Things like Orks-back-in-time, Wolves on a Ferris Bueller Day off in their Thunderhawk or Vect's black-hole-in-a-box make me think his is reading or watching loony-toons while writing his books, rather than 40K stuff. Reading a Kelly Codex, I always half-expect Bugs Bunny to show up as a Special Character. And worse, he is utterly incapable of "characterization". Rather, in Kelly Codexes we're treated to the most atrocious sort of expositionary writing, say, when he tells us literaly "Vect is the most intelligent and devious Dark Eldar". Captivating, really! What's more, his rules, whether Wolves or Dark Eldar produce rather bland, uniform spam-armies. All SW armies now carry Long Fangs and JotWW-spam. All DE just do the kinda-MSU Raider Spam. There is absolutely no creativity or talent there. Oh, and lets not forget Kelly's master stroke of a guy called "the Decaptiator" who wields a weapon called "the Decapitator" and decapitates people. And if he does it long enough, the world will end! I swear, if Kelly ever writes another Marine Codex, there will probably be a SC called "Bolter" who carries a "Bolter" and "bolters" people.

Given these alternatives, Mat Ward is far and wide the best codex writer they have. All his books fall fairly well into the middle of the power (or balance) category. And more importantly, they are the most diverse and flexible books. He pioneered Chapter Tactics making the Space Marine book the gold standard of versatility. Likewise, the Blood Angel Dex with the options for Mech, Jumpers, Golden Army, all-DC, MSU, Terminator Deathstar, Dread-army, etc... alone produces brings more variety to todays gaming tables than all of the Codex from Kelly and Cruddace taken together. And in his much maligned fluff writing, Ward respects previous work (e.g. Hive War... compare his version to Cruddace version), actually made Necrons interesting and truly inscrutable for the fist time (Blood Angel alliance) and brilliantly re-invented the Grey Knights (Terminus Decree, Chapter Founding, Purifier Fortress, etc..).

I take a Ward Codex over the inept scribbling of the others any day.

I actually like the current Witch Hunters codex. Its faith system throws my opponent's off guard. It also adds strategy, making the player think when is the best time to use a given power. On top of that, it can't be countered like psychic powers.

Divine Guidance and Spirit of the Martyr allows Sisters to withstand attacks that would otherwise annihilate them at the same time dish out tremendous damage. I fear a new codex will rid these special assets in exchanged for less useful ones. I don't want Sisters to be streamlined like Space Marines. I want them to remain unique.

If anything needs to be changed, its Sister's long range shooting. The current Sisters are decent in objective missions, but they are outgunned by all armies when it comes to long range shooting. Sure the Exorcist is one of the best tank killers in the game, but it fires D6 random shots, which can make it unreliable.

I just hope there is still Sisters Repentia (thats what they were called right? The ones that carried eviscerators?)

Zweischneid wrote:

Melissia wrote:Either one of them is better than ward for me. I don't think the 'nid codex is bad anyway... it's more the FAQs that need re-writing.

Speak for yourself. Cruddace produced the most overpowered (IG) and underpowered (Nid) Codex of 5th. It clearly shows his inability in grasping the working mechanics of 40K. His treatment of the Hive War shows utter ignorance of the fluff too.

Kelly is far worse. Things like Orks-back-in-time, Wolves on a Ferris Bueller Day off in their Thunderhawk or Vect's black-hole-in-a-box make me think his is reading or watching loony-toons while writing his books, rather than 40K stuff. Reading a Kelly Codex, I always half-expect Bugs Bunny to show up as a Special Character. And worse, he is utterly incapable of "characterization". Rather, in Kelly Codexes we're treated to the most atrocious sort of expositionary writing, say, when he tells us literaly "Vect is the most intelligent and devious Dark Eldar". Captivating, really! What's more, his rules, whether Wolves or Dark Eldar produce rather bland, uniform spam-armies. All SW armies now carry Long Fangs and JotWW-spam. All DE just do the kinda-MSU Raider Spam. There is absolutely no creativity or talent there. Oh, and lets not forget Kelly's master stroke of a guy called "the Decaptiator" who wields a weapon called "the Decapitator" and decapitates people. And if he does it long enough, the world will end! I swear, if Kelly ever writes another Marine Codex, there will probably be a SC called "Bolter" who carries a "Bolter" and "bolters" people.

Given these alternatives, Mat Ward is far and wide the best codex writer they have. All his books fall fairly well into the middle of the power (or balance) category. And more importantly, they are the most diverse and flexible books. He pioneered Chapter Tactics making the Space Marine book the gold standard of versatility. Likewise, the Blood Angel Dex with the options for Mech, Jumpers, Golden Army, all-DC, MSU, Terminator Deathstar, Dread-army, etc... alone produces brings more variety to todays gaming tables than all of the Codex from Kelly and Cruddace taken together. And in his much maligned fluff writing, Ward respects previous work (e.g. Hive War... compare his version to Cruddace version), actually made Necrons interesting and truly inscrutable for the fist time (Blood Angel alliance) and brilliantly re-invented the Grey Knights (Terminus Decree, Chapter Founding, Purifier Fortress, etc..).

I take a Ward Codex over the inept scribbling of the others any day.

1. Ward codices are the worst. To argue this point is futile. Check out the thread called "So Grey Knights worship Khorne Now?"
Or the 1d4chan Matt Ward Gallery of Disaster. He really is the worst. They probably just don't want to get rid of him to make their other writers seem god-like by comparison.

2. Nids are NOT underpowered, Tau are underpowered, Necrons are underpowered, Nids are NOT underpowered.

3. Guard is good, but still perfectly beatable, you just need this think called Strategy .

4. The BA/Cron alliance was an abomination. They might as well have team the BA with Chaos, it just didn't make sense.

5. He RUINED the GK. They bathed in SoB blood. How do you, clearly someone who cares about the Adepta, go along with that?

From a games perspective, Matt Ward's codex are broken. AV14, AV13, FNP, and Furious Charge spam Blood Angels, Force Weapon all time time Grey Knights that will most of the time crush Daemon players is far from balanced.

I'm not saying nids are underpowered no they do fine, they just lost some of the army feel. Also I'm pretty pissed about the fluff in the new one.

Zweischneid wrote:

Melissia wrote:Either one of them is better than ward for me. I don't think the 'nid codex is bad anyway... it's more the FAQs that need re-writing.

Speak for yourself. Cruddace produced the most overpowered (IG) and underpowered (Nid) Codex of 5th. It clearly shows his inability in grasping the working mechanics of 40K. His treatment of the Hive War shows utter ignorance of the fluff too.

Kelly is far worse. Things like Orks-back-in-time, Wolves on a Ferris Bueller Day off in their Thunderhawk or Vect's black-hole-in-a-box make me think his is reading or watching loony-toons while writing his books, rather than 40K stuff. Reading a Kelly Codex, I always half-expect Bugs Bunny to show up as a Special Character. And worse, he is utterly incapable of "characterization". Rather, in Kelly Codexes we're treated to the most atrocious sort of expositionary writing, say, when he tells us literaly "Vect is the most intelligent and devious Dark Eldar". Captivating, really! What's more, his rules, whether Wolves or Dark Eldar produce rather bland, uniform spam-armies. All SW armies now carry Long Fangs and JotWW-spam. All DE just do the kinda-MSU Raider Spam. There is absolutely no creativity or talent there. Oh, and lets not forget Kelly's master stroke of a guy called "the Decaptiator" who wields a weapon called "the Decapitator" and decapitates people. And if he does it long enough, the world will end! I swear, if Kelly ever writes another Marine Codex, there will probably be a SC called "Bolter" who carries a "Bolter" and "bolters" people.

Given these alternatives, Mat Ward is far and wide the best codex writer they have. All his books fall fairly well into the middle of the power (or balance) category. And more importantly, they are the most diverse and flexible books. He pioneered Chapter Tactics making the Space Marine book the gold standard of versatility. Likewise, the Blood Angel Dex with the options for Mech, Jumpers, Golden Army, all-DC, MSU, Terminator Deathstar, Dread-army, etc... alone produces brings more variety to todays gaming tables than all of the Codex from Kelly and Cruddace taken together. And in his much maligned fluff writing, Ward respects previous work (e.g. Hive War... compare his version to Cruddace version), actually made Necrons interesting and truly inscrutable for the fist time (Blood Angel alliance) and brilliantly re-invented the Grey Knights (Terminus Decree, Chapter Founding, Purifier Fortress, etc..).

I take a Ward Codex over the inept scribbling of the others any day.

I thought this was serious for a moment, but after reading this, I realize it is a troll. Almost had me there! 2/10

Even then, a writer cannot please everybody. You are in the minority in this case.

The argument that Tyranids are underpowered makes me laugh.

Tyranids have a far better feel to them and a far better army than before. The only thing really missing from the previous editions is the ability to produce stupidly overpowered monstrous creature spam...

The only thing I wish was different were the Lictors, and the presence of a Lictor Alpha similar to DoW2.

Tyranids can be utterly brutal in the right hands. I don't understand how people are finding them to be underpowered. Where are they going wrong? Using old codex tactics? New 'dex comes out, you change your tactics. That is the way of this game.

Melissia wrote:The argument that Tyranids are underpowered makes me laugh.

If that's the case, could you do me the favour and rank the 5th Edition books (C:SM, C:IG, C:SW, C:Nids, C:BA, C;DE, C:GK, I believe) in their order of power as you see them (for the sake of simplicity, assuming equal skill of the player across the board, as well as an "all-comer" environment)?

Zweischneid wrote:

Melissia wrote:The argument that Tyranids are underpowered makes me laugh.

If that's the case, could you do me the favour and rank the 5th Edition books (C:SM, C:IG, C:SW, C:Nids, C:BA, C;DE, C:GK, I believe) in their order of power as you see them (for the sake of simplicity, assuming equal skill of the player across the board, as well as an "all-comer" environment)?

Why just 5ed books? Are you forgetting the, what, 7, 8 other armies? Even if they were the weakest of those armies (they're not), they'd still be better than almost all the 4ed ones because the 4ed ones are not designed to work well with 5ed, only 4ed.

im2randomghgh wrote:
Why just 5ed books? Are you forgetting the, what, 7, 8 other armies? Even if they were the weakest of those armies (they're not), they'd still be better than almost all the 4ed ones because the 4ed ones are not designed to work well with 5ed, only 4ed.

You answer your own question. I restrict it to 5th Edition books, precisely because 4th Edition books were written before the current rule-set. As such, unanticipated discrepancies are to be expected and can consequently not be attributed to bad (or good) Codex-writing.

Zweischneid, in what way do you consider the Tyranid codex underpowered?

Zweischneid wrote:

im2randomghgh wrote:
Why just 5ed books? Are you forgetting the, what, 7, 8 other armies? Even if they were the weakest of those armies (they're not), they'd still be better than almost all the 4ed ones because the 4ed ones are not designed to work well with 5ed, only 4ed.

You answer your own question. I restrict it to 5th Edition books, precisely because 4th Edition books were written before the current rule-set. As such, unanticipated discrepancies are to be expected and can consequently not be attributed to bad (or good) Codex-writing.

Either way, returning to the point, Nids are better than DE and about even with non-daemon-fighting GK, IMHO.

Zweischneid wrote:

Melissia wrote:The argument that Tyranids are underpowered makes me laugh.

If that's the case, could you do me the favour and rank the 5th Edition books (C:SM, C:IG, C:SW, C:Nids, C:BA, C;DE, C:GK, I believe) in their order of power as you see them (for the sake of simplicity, assuming equal skill of the player across the board, as well as an "all-comer" environment)?

You just committed one of the three classic blunders: Never start a land war in asia, never get into it with a Sicillian when death is on the line and never start an argument about 40k with Melissia!

Besides, I'm not going to put a linear ranking system. That's misleading.

Melissia wrote:Besides, I'm not going to put a linear ranking system. That's misleading.

Exactly, it is all about what strategy you prefer, and what strategy you use with which army against which type of army.

I'm just hoping a new Sisters codex keeps a similar feel and uniqueness. Every step they take that makes them closer to Guard or Marines is a loss in my book. Don't morph the army too much, and stick with old school gothic feel (Sisters are the only army left that still has it IMO). I can cope with 'codex rankings', and of course we're going to get awesome new models, just don't mess up the army as a whole.

Creeping Dementia wrote:I'm just hoping a new Sisters codex keeps a similar feel and uniqueness. Every step they take that makes them closer to Guard or Marines is a loss in my book. Don't morph the army too much, and stick with old school gothic feel (Sisters are the only army left that still has it IMO). I can cope with 'codex rankings', and of course we're going to get awesome new models, just don't mess up the army as a whole.

Let me sum that up:

MATT WARD GTFO!

im2randomghgh wrote:
Either way, returning to the point, Nids are better than DE and about even with non-daemon-fighting GK, IMHO.

Ok, possible. But the DE-Codex is weaksauce incarnate anyways, and another pointless product of GW's most inept Codex-writer.

Jack-o-Black-holes-in-a-box still make my cry at what 40K has come to these days..

But the "common" or "majority" opinion here appears to be that DE are "well balanced" (which is largely Kelly-fan-wänk, not to mention desperate self-aggrandisation of Dark Eldar players who enjoy deluding themselves to be some kind of "better/advanced/more skilled" breed of 40K players) and GKs to be fairly powerful.