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Terrain?

tehbarry wrote:

Bangbangboom wrote:

LostSoulCasey'sLaw wrote:
Category 13
Fluff!(0-10 models)

How can you enter with nothing?

Interesting... Perhaps a category I could win?

whalemusic360 wrote:Terrain?

Haha, well spotted guys. Actually not an error though! whalemusic360 has the idea. If we think of a model being a Space Marine on a bike, Skaven, Greater Deamon or even a Land Raider then a diorama about fluff doesn't need to include one does it?
You could make an interesting piece of terrain or... Well i want to see what all you talented folk can come up with so i wont give you any suggestions.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
I have been looking at the categories and worrying about the number of entries we will get for some of them. With this in mind i think the best solution is to withhold the right to combine or remove categories that have too few entries. If this is in fact the case then the entries will be moved to appropriate categories.

Shouldn't be any problems there...

I am currently waiting on a reply from legoburner on regards to any backing i may have. The excitement and anticipation is palpable here!

LostSoulCasey'sLaw wrote:

I have been looking at the categories and worrying about the number of entries we will get for some of them. With this in mind i think the best solution is to withhold the right to combine or remove categories that have too few entries. If this is in fact the case then the entries will be moved to appropriate categories.

I think it would be in your interest to trim down the categories as much as you can from the get go, this way avoids people being frustrated that their cat will be merged with other after he put the effort to respect that cat and also saves you a load of work merging stuff and combining stuff after the entries are in... believe me you want crystal clear categories from the start... will keep your house organized from the start and people will not have a excuse to moan about it.

Agreeing with Navarro.

Too many categories so far, trim it down to 5...

I think 5 might be going to far the other way LunaH

Category 1
Science Fiction Single Miniature
Category 2
Science Fiction Unit(5-10 models)
Category 3
Science Fiction Monster
Category 4 [/b] WHY NOT MAKE A SCIENCE FICTION LARGE UNIT CATEGORY INSTEAD THE SAME WITH FANTASY THIS COULD INCLUDE MONSTERS AND VEHICLES
Science Fiction Vehicle

Category 5
Fantasy Single Miniature
Category 6
Fantasy Unit(5-10 models)
Category 7
Fantasy Monster
Category 8
Fantasy Vehicle

Category 9
Historical/Modern Miniatures(1-5 models)
Category 10
Historical/Modern Vehicle

Category 11
Large Scale Single Miniature(54mm+)
Category 12
Open Category [b]WHAT CAN BE IN OPEN THAT CAN NOT BE IN FLUFF OR VICA VERSA, I THINK THESE BASICALLY THE SAME CATEGORY
Category 13
Conversion Corner(No paint allowed)
Category 14
Fight!(2-20 models)
Category 15
Fluff!(0-10 models)

Here is my take on it: ( rough idea i know )

Combine Monsters with Vehicles ( large model , so dragons and steam tanks / greater daemons and stormraven ) etc etc

Combine Fantasy category with Historic

Combine Sci Fi with Modern war Vehicle ( WW1 to now )

Combine Large Scale and Open cCategory

From Catagory 11-15 can pretty much be trimmed and separated into just 2. Open , and Duels ( or fights )

Large scale and open combined I agree with also

LunaHound wrote:Here is my take on it: ( rough idea i know )

Combine Monsters with Vehicles ( large model , so dragons and steam tanks / greater daemons and stormraven ) etc etc

Combine Fantasy category with Historic

Combine Sci Fi with Modern war Vehicle ( WW1 to now )

Combine Large Scale and Open cCategory

From Catagory 11-15 can pretty much be trimmed and separated into just 2. Open , and Duels ( or fights )

This sounds good.

Although keep 13

Right folks, thanks for the fantastic input. Give me a wee while and i'll post something up. Probably just what you said but obviously i'll need to look into it myself.

Thanks for the help!


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Categories are as follows:
Category 1
Modern/Science Fiction Single Miniature
[1 infantry, bike or similar miniature.]
Category 2
Modern/Science Fiction Single Large Miniature
[1 monster, tank or similar miniature.]
Category 3
Modern/Science Fiction Unit
[5-10 miniatures. Maximum of 2 large miniatures.]

Category 4
Historical/Fantasy Single Miniature
[1 infantry, cavalry or similar miniature.]
Category 5
Historical/Fantasy Single Large Miniature
[1 monster, cannon or similar miniature.]
Category 6
Historical/Fantasy Unit(5-10 models)
[5-10 miniatures. Maximum of 2 large miniatures.]

Category 7
Large Scale Single Miniature
[54mm+ scale. 1 infantry, cavalry, bike or similar miniature.]
Category 8
Conversion Corner
[1 regular or large miniature. 1 image completely unpainted, the others may have one coloured basecoat.]
Category 9
Fight!
[2-20 miniatures. Diorama showing combat.]
Category 10
Fluff!
[0-10 miniatures. Diorama showing background story. May include no miniatures.]


Ten categories. How does that sound to everyone? Thanks for the help!


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I'll need to post the rules up again. The last version was hazy at best imho.

Just a quick update right now. I have sent a private message to Chapterhouse to see if i can get them on board. No reply from yakface or legoburner as of yet. I have my fingers crossed that this is because they are discussing the idea in great depth!! Haha.

LostSoulCasey'sLaw wrote:
Just a quick update right now. I have sent a private message to Chapterhouse to see if i can get them on board. No reply from yakface or legoburner as of yet. I have my fingers crossed that this is because they are discussing the idea in great depth!! Haha.

Sorry, we've not had any in-depth (or any) discussion on the matter yet. Also, be very careful if you're contacting people to provide potential prize support to make sure you are very clear with them that you are not affiliated with dakkadakka.com in any way (its important!).

Now onto the actual matter at hand: I am always looking for people who are willing to put their money where their mouth is (so to speak) and help run interesting stuff like this on Dakka.

If this is to go forward, it would be something that I would help you to organize, in that I would take care of wrangling up the prize support...so you should probably stop doing anything on that end, as you yourself can't promise to provide promotional support for any company that agrees to provide prizes for this.

However, there are a number of nitty-gritty issues that I would need to see solutions for before we move forward on it. We can always take this discussion to a PM if you prefer.

Before I get to my questions to you, are you aware of the 'Dakka Painting Challenges' we've run before? These have essentially been smaller painting competitions that we have run in a certain way in order to minimize some of the issue I will bring up below. Are you sure you wouldn't rather like to take on running a Dakka Painting Challenge instead of something quite so ambitious? Just keep that question in mind.


Here are the sticking points with the concept as I see them:


1) If we're going to do something big and official like a 'Golden Dakka' competition then it would need to be something that is done annually. Obviously you can't guarantee that you'll still be interested in running this 10 years down the road, but for the short(ish)-term, like the next 3 years (minimum), is this really something that you'd want to commit to doing every year?


2) The big problem with any online competition like this are the prizes. While it is pretty easy for me to wrangle up some amazing prizes, the bigger the prizes the more likely people will bend or break the rules in order to win them. This is especially true if people are paying money to enter this competition. Of course the reverse of that issue is, without big prizes you don't get all that many entries...and that's really the big sticking point. If you have big prizes then you have to strip a lot of the public elements out of it (like a public vote that means anything, as that can be manipulated), and if you don't have a big prize then you won't get too many entries. So I'm curious as to what level of prize you would envision for this competition, especially given you are talking about 10 different categories (each presumably with at least one 'big' prize for 1st place).


3) Do pictures of models submitted have to painted within any given time frame? Can people use pictures of models they painted years ago? If there is a time limit, how do you enforce it? Can people use models/images they submitted for other competitions? For instance can someone who already won a Golden Demon use a picture of that model for this competition?

With the Dakka Painting Challenges we said people had to paint a brand new model that had never been shown anywhere else on the internet yet and they also have to submit a WIP picture of the model before they paint it. While this certainly doesn't prevent someone from simply grabbing someone else's images from off the internet, it lessens it. But again, the bigger the prize and prestige this competition has, the more 'poaching' of random pics off the net will be a problem.


4) If judges are cropping down the entries to a 'shortlist' who will the judges be? Again, by charging people an entry fee you make these kinds of questions VERY important because people will want to know what biases the judges have before plunking down their money to enter. For the Dakka Painting Challenges we usually post ALL the pictures for public voting and then allow that vote to whittle down the entries to a top 3 or 5. Then we've used a group of judges to pick the winner out of those top choices to ensure that a rigged public vote can't simply 'swipe' the win. Of course, we've also never charged for entry, so that means the choice of judges can be quite a bit more lenient (I usually just use Dakka moderators with great painting skills).


5) The number of categories seems...idealistic, at best. As I pointed out before, we probably can't really give out super great prizes and you'll be running an online competition with all sorts of (at best) legitimate concerns about fairness, which means you're probably not going to get THAT many entries. So I think even having 10 different categories in the first year is probably a little too high a bar to aim for. I know you'd like to have a category for every single possible type of miniature, but I think the first year it would be best to go with only the most popular categories you think for Dakka gamers (perhaps run a poll to find out). Then if the competition is a runaway success, next year you add in a few more categories until eventually you get up to the full range you were hoping for.

I'd think probably 6 categories at most would be a good start for Dakka. Something like:

• Best single (character) sci-fi/steampunk model
• Best sci-fi/steampunk unit
• Best sci-fi/steampunk monster/vehicle

• Best single (character) fantasy model
• Best fantasy unit
• Best fantasy monster


And even then I really wonder how many for each category you'll really get. Anyway, I don't want to put you off or be a downer. I'd really love for this to happen, I just think its probably best to start small and make sure everything works before going full bore into it.

how do you make sure the person who submits the picture is the actual creator of the model?

stealing someone else's work and credit in an actual painting competition has been a problem at 1st person painting competitions, Ive seen alot of awards get taken away for someone lying about there work when the judges can see it in first person. With a competition on the internet I see the possibilities for cheating endless and the ways to stop it minimal.

How is cheating solved?

Smitty0305 wrote:how do you make sure the person who submits the picture is the actual creator of the model?

stealing someone else's work and credit in an actual painting competition has been a problem at 1st person painting competitions, Ive seen alot of awards get taken away for someone lying about there work when the judges can see it in first person. With a competition on the internet I see the possibilities for cheating endless and the ways to stop it minimal.

How is cheating solved?

There is no way to totally solve the problem, it can only be mitigated.

That's why with the Dakka Painting Challenge we said the entries cannot be shown anywhere else on the internet, we keep the prizes relatively small AND we make the first round of voting public. This does two important things:

1) Since the photos can't be anywhere else on the internet and the initial voting is public that means you have the best chance for someone to spot the picture elsewhere on the internet (if it exists) and therefore get it disqualified before the final voting by the juges.

2) By keeping the prizes relatively small, it means people are mainly entering for the spirit of the competition rather than to win anything. Of course that also means people are less likely to spend a bunch of time painting a model for this type of competition, which means the quality of entries is naturally going to be lower then any competition where the models are physically entered.

yakface wrote:Also, be very careful if you're contacting people to provide potential prize support to make sure you are very clear with them that you are not affiliated with dakkadakka.com in any way (its important!).

Just a really quick reply to put your mind at ease. I have made it clear at all stages that i do not have any sort of backing from Dakka so far and i have been professional but informal in all discussions. My message to Chapterhouse concerns trophies which i would be planning on paying for from entrance fees. Although this is just an initial request to see how interested he is.

Sorry, i am on Dakka but i am rather busy. I don't want to send you a half assed reply so i will address all of these points in detail tomorrow. I am sure you understand. I would like to say thank you for your reply as i know your a busy guy and you have taken a lot of time to go into great depth. I am bubbling over with answers and thoughts and questions so i can't wait to send you a real reply. Would you rather take this to pm? I would suggest that is a more professional medium of discussion and we either of us can post updates on this thread to keep people up to date.

Thanks again.

Or we can leave prize out of this one, see how it goes.

If it goes well , we can do it again ( with prize )

P.S. An excellent point was raised by, whalemusic360.

whalemusic360 wrote:For verification, design an official entry logo, and have entrants print it out and include it in a pic with the model being entered.

That is really all i have time for tonight, sorry.


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I have replied to yakface via pm. I think it's more professional considering there are crass subjects like money involved. Plus i'm sure you'll all find text walls of logistics boring!

Keep up the chat and interest here and we will take your ideas into account where possible. I will keep you updated and drop teasers as things progress. Look out for logo designs and such in future...

Lets keep the buzz alive people!

UPDATE: Chapterhouse may be able to do the trophy casting if we can work out prices. And he would definitely like to be involved in the event if it gets of the ground. Good news so far!

EDIT: I manged to spell involved wrong twice...

Okay sorry i've been MIA for a while. Thats what happens when you drink for 96hours... But i'm back. And i've got a second wind now. Gona bash these plans into shape! Will post something solid tomorrow which will get us much closer to an end product. Any suggestions or ideas? If so, get them posted up now before i make any decisions.

Peace Out.

Yeh... So you may see i have hit a bit of a brick wall... Mentally that is. I don't really have anywhere to bounce ideas around quickly enough to make decisions.

But never fear! I am going to rope in a mate and bounce ideas off of him like golf balls. By the end of it he will be a bruised fleshy bag of broken bones and hopefully i will have some ideas down on paper. If not at least Khorne will be appeased for a few more days...

LostSoulCasey'sLaw wrote: [...] I am going to rope in a mate and bounce ideas off of him like golf balls. By the end of it he will be a bruised fleshy bag of broken bones [...]

That's the spirit!

Best of luck, looks like you've got some great ideas so far.

Zefig wrote:

LostSoulCasey'sLaw wrote: [...] I am going to rope in a mate and bounce ideas off of him like golf balls. By the end of it he will be a bruised fleshy bag of broken bones [...]

That's the spirit!

Best of luck, looks like you've got some great ideas so far.

Thanks man! Me and him are going to work some stuff out tomorrow unless something comes up that means he can't come round.

Nice to see continued support!

UPDATE: My pal's coming round tomorrow afternoon and hes gona hang around all day/evening to read what i've got and throw some ideas back at me.

Woooo... Sorry it's been so long folks. R/L got really interesting when my friends came home from University which kept me very busy.

Time to get back in the saddle though! Got a really tasty idea from my pal which should be fun and i worked out a few kinks(i think). So keep your eyes peeled for an electrifying post.

I think this is a great idea

In response to Yakface's comment about 'the bigger the prize, the bigger the incentive to cheat' why not let the winners have a 'title' to display above their avatar (in lieu of/in addition to the [DCM] ) instead of a prize for the first year?

As Yakface says; most people enter the competion for the spirit of painting and as such are likely to be regular posters in the P&M forums. Anyone trying to cheat their way to victory would be quickly found out.

I think it would be best to not pull out big prizes. It should be the spirit and not the cash, that soaking players into the dakka deamon. May try and get a golden dakka trophy that will be given from winner to winner and so on. There´s no need to actually have one for every winner just one that wanders. Get a picture with you the winner and the golden dakka, load it up and it will have a special place in a nice dakka gallery.
For the first I would go without any prices and just a little fame and that´s it. If it runs well, there´s still the option to create a golden dakka trophy.

Good to know that this idea still lives! I second your idea J.Black!

Okay sorry its been so long but i have done some thinking at least. I am deffo going to be running this without any 'material' prizes later in the year as long as i have Dakkas blessing. Also. I have a huge idea... Like, really frakking huge... Like, part time business idea. Links in really well with this project. Oooft. No more information for now. Gonna keep this one up my sleeve i think!

I'd love to see what you all think it is. In fact i encourage discussion. The again your probably not as excited as me. Here are a couple of buzz words to get you salivating haha! International, Online, Monthly. Time for research...

Peace out!!

Sent a private message to yakface concerning holding this event in this coming November... Eager to get started, will keep this thread updated. Hope i've still got a few followers!

Don't know if this has been mentioned but could it be a requirement to submit the photographed model with something similar to a timestamp or title next to the model on a piece of paper? It would prevent people pulling images from the gallery (unless they really want to photoshop it in) also i think a before painting and after painting shots should be required, to a)minimalise using other pics and to b) show any conversion work gone into the model.

My $0.02

Great idea however, if it goes through count me in

Thanks for your support! Keep an eye on the thread, things should really get going soon, lots to do and not long to do it.

As for timestamps or similar, i believe it was whalemusic360 who originally suggested this. I will definitely be running something like this. Probably in the form of a logo which can be printed off and photographed with the entry. I wont be making WIP photographs a requirement for entry but anything that shows hard work off could really swing it with the judges.

I'd like to volunteer as a judge if you're looking for help. I'll be happy to send credentials by PM.