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If a person is offended by a WWII german IG army then the whole imperium of man should have you red in the face and attacking GW stores because they are all pretty much space Nazis who make a pount of killing anything that isnt the samw rtace as them.

great army btw i love it

DrChaos wrote:If a person is offended by a WWII german IG army then the whole imperium of man should have you red in the face and attacking GW stores because they are all pretty much space Nazis who make a pount of killing anything that isnt the samw rtace as them.

Umm, not quite. The Imperium doesn't like people who are the same species as them, but racism is not present in any great quantity (institutional or otherwise). Not to mention there's a big difference between glorifying the slaughter of millions of real people and pretending to kill not-real space elves and robots.

Oh damn, I was hoping we'd avoid all this.

POST EDIT:

Actually, I'm going to belatedly invoke Godwin's law here. This thread was over as soon as it started. Thanks for the discussion, pretre, I enjoyed it!

OP: Nice paint job on the army, well done for following through a theme, good luck with placating the offended. I particularly like the 109 paint job on the Valk.

And away I go!

htj wrote:Actually, I'm going to belatedly invoke Godwin's law here. This thread was over as soon as it started.

Exactly.

If your opening salvo invokes Godwin's, you know you're in for a good time.

Is there really a difference
I mean is this guys plastic army of toy soilders going to go outside and start commiting mass murder, no they arnt. They will be used on a gameing board and they will used to pretend to shoot at other little soilders, and this has offended you.

How is he glorifying the slaughter of millions of people?
By making a themed IG army?
I suppose Flames of War as a game is promoting war then isnt it?

DrChaos wrote:Is there really a difference
I mean is this guys plastic army of toy soilders going to go outside and start commiting mass murder, no they arnt. They will be used on a gameing board and they will used to pretend to shoot at other little soilders, and this has offended you.

Obviously not. This is completely beside the point. Me wearing a SS uniform while I walk down the street doesn't mean that I will be committing mass murder either, but I can expect a negative response. Again, however, I am not offended by his army. I just think that he is asking for the flak he is getting (and may get if he brings it to a store) by choosing a controversial theme.

How is he glorifying the slaughter of millions of people?

He isn't really. I was talking about your comparison of the Imperium vs Nazi germany. It is a poor comparison.

By making a themed IG army?

No.

I suppose Flames of War as a game is promoting war then isnt it?

All wargames promote war. I think you mean't 'promoting mass murder'. It is much different to include a WWII german themed army in a game about WWII. That is, after all, the point. Including a WWII themed army, with Hitler in it, in another game just shows that you are trying to make a statement. That statement may be taken poorly by some.

some narrow minded fools maybe...

I think the idea is innovative , personally I would have like to have seen a WW1 german force , that would have elminiated the connatations assoiciated with a scheme such as this , and I think WW1 fits better with the look of 40K

Great painting , like the red skull...

gives me an idea for a triwing valkrie

DrChaos wrote:some narrow minded fools maybe...

I understand your position and it is clear that you are not looking to debate it. Thank you for your time.



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Synthetik wrote:I think the idea is innovative , personally I would have like to have seen a WW1 german force , that would have elminiated the connatations assoiciated with a scheme such as this , and I think WW1 fits better with the look of 40K

Great painting , like the red skull...

gives me an idea for a triwing valkrie

I think that DKOK can help out a lot with the WWI kind of look and I would agree that that could have avoided this whole business.

DODcrazy wrote:The lines are often blurred and it isn't a good thing because most of the guys in the German army were simply doing their civic duty just like anyone else who serves their country.

Now that is true! Infact General Erwin Rommel himself didn't like the Nazi ideas and such at all. He just did his job.

And would it be more accepted if he had used death korps of krieg instead of regular guardsmen (now that I think of it, It would look awesome!)?

With that said, I really like your army! The scheme is awesome. And I especially like that sentinel. very nicely done!

Nice job on the Red Skull. What about Baron Von Stryker?


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DiDDe wrote: General Erwin Rommel himself didn't like the Nazi ideas and such at all. He just did his job.

And he was pretty good at it, too.

maybe if DKOK were done the iron crosses would have been Imperial Eagles...

htj wrote:The point being: the friction is coming from people taking offence and making the assumption that painting an army in the theme of German fascist forces is a blow for Neo-Nazism. Tell me, do you have a problem with Valhallans with red stars on their tanks? What about Praetorians with British flags?

Maybe he just likes the look of Nazis in films and games, you know, like he said. He wanted to paint a themed army and he did. It doesn't have to be an attempt to cause controversy. Nor does it follow that just because someone might find something offensive then it shouldn't be done.

I don't think that a Soviet-themed army nor a British-themed army either fit into the 40k universe. Yes, it is obvious where the inspiration for these *in-universe* factions come from, but that's a reason to play the faction that fits in the universe, rather than trying to break the fourth wall and play something that *doesn't* fit.

DrChaos wrote:If a person is offended by a WWII german IG army then the whole imperium of man should have you red in the face and attacking GW stores because they are all pretty much space Nazis who make a pount of killing anything that isnt the samw rtace as them.

great army btw i love it

Again, my problem here is that one set of atrocities actually happened, to real people, in real life, whereas the Imperium of Man is a fictional organization that whose atrocities (even against human beings) are so grandiose in scale as to be a pastiche of the topic.

Well if some people would have paid attention its not Hitler, its MR. HiLter from monty python. so that ends the complaints about him. i have plenty more characters. In fact im sure that no one noticed the pugilist nazi from indiana jones as Mr. hiLters bodyguard.

LordDeth wrote:Well if some people would have paid attention its not Hitler, its MR. HiLter from monty python. so that ends the complaints about him. i have plenty more characters. In fact im sure that no one noticed the pugilist nazi from indiana jones as Mr. hiLters bodyguard.

Oh, that clears it all up then. If Mr Hitler was supposed to be comic relief, why did you remove the pic with him in it? Seems like you were trying to cover up the Hitler part of the army.

Also, naming the thread '4th Reich Imperial Guard army' probably wasn't the best idea.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fourth_Reich

Great job. I like that you've gone with the "pulp" german army with the inclusion of the Red Skull and Dr. Jones's pugilist nemisis, rather than a straight-up historical homage (which I do have a bit of a problem with). I'm a big fan of Hellboy (great icon BTW), Red Skull, Indy, Castle Wolfenstein... lots to work with there.

I'd love to see more of your characters. How about Major Toht and Belloq as melting psykers?

Thanks. I didnt remove it btw. Ill put it back up but if its removed again then dakka clearly does not want it here.

Yea so this is him for those who havent seen.

We really need a 2nd Guard army in here, With Indi, Capt America, Nick Fury and the Howling Commandos and a bunch of US themed troopers.

The guy on the far left saluting is just hilarious

im pretty sure the reason this was removed was a mixture of the Reg. standard saluting and the pile of skulls on the hilters base haha

Beautiful models. Love what you did with the cloaks on the Sniper guys.

Love it, of course I would because I have an IG army based on WWI German forces with pretty much the same paint scheme. I love the way you painted the Iron Crosses to. I have them on my tanks but not on my Guardsmen. My army is the 223rd Reichland so its close in that regard also.

Everyone knows that the Iron Cross, German Eagle, and the term "Reich" were all in use long before the Nazis came around right? Did it say third Reich? No, it did not.


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The salute was also used by the Ancient Romans, although I can see how people have a problem with it in this context.

willydstyle wrote:It's funny, because I haven't actually seen anyone in the thread claim to be offended by the army. I have seen a lot of people be offended by the idea that someone else *might* be offended, however

Nobody has addressed the fact that the theme simply doesn't fit the universe, however.

I have seen cool theme armies that "don't fit the 40k theme." There are a couple cool USMC mordian armies out there, there are a few Star Wars themed SM armies, there are armies like the angry or pretty marines that look cool, but are really out of place, or tyranid armies that look like H R Giger stuff.

I appreciate the time and effort that go into making armies that are a little outside of the box. It is kind of refreshing to sit across the table from a outside of the box theme army.

willydstyle wrote:I don't think that a Soviet-themed army nor a British-themed army either fit into the 40k universe. Yes, it is obvious where the inspiration for these *in-universe* factions come from, but that's a reason to play the faction that fits in the universe, rather than trying to break the fourth wall and play something that *doesn't* fit.

Or maybe some people enjoy using their imagination and incorporating outside things into the 40k universe. What does or doesn't fit is certainly up to the player to decide, not somebody else trying to impose their restrictions on what can or can not be used.

I like this army, I think it's coherent and well painted, and I would have no issues playing against it, although I would also think it perfectly understandable if others chose not to do so.
Although the fascist Nazi regime was undoubtedly horrific, oppressive and it's demise well earned, I wonder if the axis powers had won the second world war if people would be having these very same discussions about someone painting their army in the colours of the 'evil' Americans and British? (And Russians of course) The ones taught in schools as the old enemies who both firebombed and flattened whole cities, deliberately killing millions of civilians, etc etc.
I guess history being written by the victors gives a whole new slant to things if someone else wins!

I really like this. I like the use of the Iron Crosses, especially on the sentinel. There's something about the one painted panel and the snug fit of the GW cross that goes together really well. Also, Red Skull = Fun.

I'm not going to repeat everyone else who argued that this army isn't offensive though. Yes, there are Nazi-fanboy armies out there but I also think that this isn't one of them. I'm a fan of WWI-WWII German military themed armies but only when they're done well and not regurgitating swastikas on every mini. I recall an army on Dakka somewhere that was resplendent with Germanic imagery and even propaganda from WWII. But at no point was there something that yelled 'Hello! I'm an ignorant smeghead who may/may not be racist and may/may not be trying to insult people' in that guys army. You sir, are not a smeghead.

I think I may have repeated people. Oops.

I like it, very well done.

willydstyle wrote:I don't think that a Soviet-themed army nor a British-themed army either fit into the 40k universe. Yes, it is obvious where the inspiration for these *in-universe* factions come from, but that's a reason to play the faction that fits in the universe, rather than trying to break the fourth wall and play something that *doesn't* fit.

Saying that this army doesn't 'fit' is ridiculous. In a universe where 8-foot giants wearing head-to-toe pink armour fight continuously with giant green cockney-voiced mushrooms, you're saying that an this incredibly realistic, militaristic-looking army is out of place? Because it's symbol is the Iron Cross and one of it's commanders has a red head? Rubbish.




My 2 cents:

Of course this topic MAY cause friction; that's merely stating the obvious. However, it seems to me that the issue is whether or not it should, to which the answer has to be no. The primary symbol used in this army is the Iron Cross - originally a Prussian symbol from the early 19th Century - this isn't in bad taste, although having said that, what qualifies as 'bad' taste is highly subjective. However it seems to me that any reasonable person ought not be offended by this army - it is very well painted & modelled, and seems to be done in good taste.

For argument's sake, if this army had swastikas on every soldier it would probably be in bad taste, however it was justified. However, as it stands, it is simply modelled after a real-life army, as are all other IG regiments - in fact, the Steel Legion itself is modelled after German WW2 paratroopers [http://warhammer40k.wikia.com/wiki/Armageddon_Steel_Legion]. If someone put pictures up of their Steel Legion troops painted exactly like WW2 paratroopers I'm pretty sure no-one would have an issue with that.

In any case, I think that IG players should have the freedom to paint their guardsmen according to their own aesthetic preferences without being subject to unfair prejudice. If you thought that Vietnam-era US soldiers looked cool, go with Catachans. If you liked the look of the Soviet Red Army, then go for Valhallans. If you thought that the German Army during WW2 looked boss, then maybe go with a scheme like this. As previously stated, the German WW2 army was not synonymous with the National Socialist Party - there is nothing wrong with liking the 'look' of a period of German military history.

I think alot of people are really missing the point, either because they know nothing about history or they are just being bloody minded.
I'll repeat myself again, Nazi and German Soldier were two very different things....A good deal of the rank and file German troops were NOT Nazi followers, they were doing what was ordered of them by Hitler and his Govt. The German Army has a proud heritage and I see nothing wrong with theming an IG Army around the German forces. Yes the Nazi party was an abomination and I, like many others are glad it dissolved quickly after the war. However, you cannot discount it entirely from history, to do so would be short sighted. The German soldiers who gave their lives for thier country should be remembered, they were as brave as the American and British forces involved. Without Hitler as a catalyst we wouldn't be talking about this at all. You cannot blame a whole society for the ills of a few and Hitler was sick, driven and committed but sick.
Can we not just take this Army for what it is? A well converted and slightly satirical look at a force made up of well trained and dedicated soldiers?
What is wrong with people?