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ObliviousBlueCaboose wrote:

Harriticus wrote:It'd be a great twist though that Draigo actually died that day against M'Kar and the Ordo Malleus made up his legend to inspire others, including new Grey Knights.

But GW doesn't have the balls for that of course, mostly because they couldn't sell a Draigo model then.

Eldrad is dead. Doesn't he have a model? I know a lot of Eldar i've played used him

The difference being that Draigo isn't dead.

Durza wrote:It's quite amusing how instead of saying anything to refute my opinion, you simply slap the latest slang term over it and insult me, and will likely do so again.

So you're saying that the Draigo fluff is well written, insightful, and would have been considered remotely possible before the Grey Knights codex came out?

I don't understand ... you seem to recognize that I said something to refute your opinion other than insult you, which I did, but you also say that I didn't ... I guess you're trying to be sarcastic. But sarcasm is saying something that is the opposite of what is the case to emphasize it's not the case. For example, saying "oh this is really some great weather" in the middle of a hurricane. But what you've done is said "wow, you addressed my point" ... when that's what I actually did.

bombboy1252 wrote:I mean come on, would anyone buy a draigo model if his description was "So Draigo went into the warp....and he died...the end"

That's exactly right. If Ward had written that, he'd deserve some of the hate he currently gets. But fortunately he didn't write that.

girgam wrote:i think what Draigo has done for the 40k fluff is make matt ward a target, even if he does write something that is insightful and brilliant it will be picked apart like crows fighting over a carcass.

People on the internet complained about Mat Ward many years before we even guessed he'd write a new GK book. The hatred in this case is mostly a knee-jerk reaction; more of the same old stuff.

Harriticus wrote:I think Draigo is the symbol of the transition of GK fluff from a Chapter of heroes who struggle against the Daemonic in a never ending and ultimately unwinnable secret war to GK are a chapter of heroes who terrorize Daemons in a never ending war.

Yes, exactly right.

Harriticus wrote:I like the image that the Grey Knights are constantly the underdog in their secret war, but more lately the image that comes to mind is an army of unstoppable Daemon killers that Daemons can do nothing against so their best option is to just avoid them entirely.

Wait ... no, that's not the point of Kaldor Draigo -- it's the opposite, like you just said. Of course, what happens on the tabletop is a different matter. I hear a lot of Daemons players saying exactly this but that is "new codex" syndrome and not a reflection on their fluff.

ObliviousBlueCaboose wrote: Draigo is dead. The Inquisition/GK leadership is making a propaganda piece about him.

It can't be this because the Inquisition isn't interested in propaganda. That's someone else's job. Who would they even be propagandizing since the very existence of the GK is a secret? Incidentally, that also rules out your second point.

bombboy1252 wrote:

ObliviousBlueCaboose wrote:

bombboy1252 wrote:

2. Draigo is a corrupted GK and escaped into the warp to hide with the other renegade marines. The Inquisition/GK leadership is making a propaganda piece about him.

...........That's makes no sense....Grey Knights can't be corrupted...

Yes buy into the propaganda. Like a good little imperial citizen. It will help you sleep at night.

I've already listed how i deduced that the Grey Knights can be corrupted. in another thread. Let me find it...

Here are the key tenets of my arguement. The thread is found here http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/30/404908.page

Spoiler:

Fact. Grey Knights cannot be corrupted.
Fact. They killed the sisters to use their blood to fight corruption.
These two facts contradict each other. Either they are incorruptible and killed the sisters for no reason (or perhaps blood for the blood god). Or they can be corrupted.
Fact They fight along side deamons.
Fact: They use deamon blades.
Fact: They have a Knight in the warp. Now if the bloodtide can corrupt a grey knight, the warp can too. So either hes now dead, or corrupted and the inquisition is covering it up or he is a super special snowflake.

My reasoning. Using the facts, especially the use of deamon allies and deamon blades, the whole chapter has fallen to chaos.

Or the knights can be corrupted, and the ones who are are executed or escape into the warp. Inquisition covers it up.

But it clearly says in the codex, "not a single grey knight has ever fallen to chaos". The information from the codex wasn't written by an inquisitor, it was written by a person IRL. Matt Ward isn't an inquisitor, or a brain-washed imperial citizen...thus you're point is invalid...

People like you take the fun out of the fluff. No imagination. This isn't YMDC. To me codexes are the propaganda of the respected race. And by proving the codex contridicts itself, i prove you can't trust it. But of course GW doesnt have the balls to have draigo be a chaos pawn. It'd be too cool.

Draigo is a pawn, he is a Daemon.

iproxtaco wrote:The difference being that Draigo isn't dead.

But the point is whether there is a model isn't contingent on the character being alive.

iproxtaco wrote:

bombboy1252 wrote:

ObliviousBlueCaboose wrote:

bombboy1252 wrote:

ObliviousBlueCaboose wrote:2. Draigo is a corrupted GK and escaped into the warp to hide with the other renegade marines. The Inquisition/GK leadership is making a propaganda piece about him.

...........That's makes no sense....Grey Knights can't be corrupted...

Yes buy into the propaganda. Like a good little imperial citizen. It will help you sleep at night.

I've already listed how i deduced that the Grey Knights can be corrupted. in another thread. Let me find it...

Here are the key tenets of my arguement. The thread is found here http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/30/404908.page

Spoiler:

Fact. Grey Knights cannot be corrupted.
Fact. They killed the sisters to use their blood to fight corruption.
These two facts contradict each other. Either they are incorruptible and killed the sisters for no reason (or perhaps blood for the blood god). Or they can be corrupted.
Fact They fight along side deamons.
Fact: They use deamon blades.
Fact: They have a Knight in the warp. Now if the bloodtide can corrupt a grey knight, the warp can too. So either hes now dead, or corrupted and the inquisition is covering it up or he is a super special snowflake.

My reasoning. Using the facts, especially the use of deamon allies and deamon blades, the whole chapter has fallen to chaos.

Or the knights can be corrupted, and the ones who are are executed or escape into the warp. Inquisition covers it up.

But it clearly says in the codex, "not a single grey knight has ever fallen to chaos". The information from the codex wasn't written by an inquisitor, it was written by a person IRL. Matt Ward isn't an inquisitor, or a brain-washed imperial citizen...thus you're point is invalid...

Please don't. Just read Crowe's entry and be done with it, the Codex contradicts itself.

All me reading Crowe's entry proved is that he hasn't been corrupted by the sword........

But that he CAN be corrupted by it, that he has to resist the temptations.

obviosbluecaboose wrote:Fact. Grey Knights cannot be corrupted.
Fact. They killed the sisters to use their blood to fight corruption.
These two facts contradict each other. Either they are incorruptible and killed the sisters for no reason (or perhaps blood for the blood god). Or they can be corrupted.

Your using the meanings of "corrupted" interchangeably. "Corrupted," regarding the Blood Tide, means something like "infected." It has nothing to do with whether one is morally lax or completely resolute in your faith. That's why some of the Sisters were corrupted by it, even though they are famous for being faithful. The other sense of "corrupted" means something like "fallen." In this sense, the GK did not become corrupted. But remember -- it's not that it is impossible for them to fall. It's that they never have yet.

iproxtaco wrote:But that he CAN be corrupted by it, that he has to resist the temptations.

And he resists, just like other grey knights do....

I never said it was impossible for them to be corrupt, I was saying none of them have...Crowe included

iproxtaco wrote:But that he CAN be corrupted by it, that he has to resist the temptations.

Precisely, as usual.

Manchu wrote: ObliviousBlueCaboose wrote: Draigo is dead. The Inquisition/GK leadership is making a propaganda piece about him.

It can't be this because the Inquisition isn't interested in propaganda. That's someone else's job. Who would they even be propagandizing since the very existence of the GK is a secret? Incidentally, that also rules out your second point.

Its the waning times of the imperium. I also mentioned the GK leadership. Could be used to keep moral up. And point one doesnt rule out point two. The GK leadership has a reputation to uphold. OR maybe the entire chapter is corrupted and their in on it. You can never be sure when it comes to chaos.

bombboy1252 wrote:

iproxtaco wrote:But that he CAN be corrupted by it, that he has to resist the temptations.

And he resists, just like other grey knights do....

I never said it was impossible for them to be corrupt, I was saying none of them have...Crowe included

You did earlier, but never mind.

iproxtaco wrote:

bombboy1252 wrote:

iproxtaco wrote:But that he CAN be corrupted by it, that he has to resist the temptations.

And he resists, just like other grey knights do....

I never said it was impossible for them to be corrupt, I was saying none of them have...Crowe included

You did earlier, but never mind.

When?

Edit: Never mind I'm tired...

ObliviousBlueCaboose wrote:

Manchu wrote: ObliviousBlueCaboose wrote: Draigo is dead. The Inquisition/GK leadership is making a propaganda piece about him.

It can't be this because the Inquisition isn't interested in propaganda. That's someone else's job. Who would they even be propagandizing since the very existence of the GK is a secret? Incidentally, that also rules out your second point.

Its the waning times of the imperium. I also mentioned the GK leadership. Could be used to keep moral up. And point one doesnt rule out point two. The GK leadership has a reputation to uphold. OR maybe the entire chapter is corrupted and their in on it. You can never be sure when it comes to chaos.

When it says none of them have fallen to Chaos, it means, not a single Grey Knight has ever fallen to Chaos. Try and contradict that.

ObliviousBlueCaboose wrote:Its the waning times of the imperium. I also mentioned the GK leadership. Could be used to keep moral up. And point one doesnt rule out point two. The GK leadership has a reputation to uphold. OR maybe the entire chapter is corrupted and their in on it. You can never be sure when it comes to chaos.

At first, I just want to say "bs" but it's true that one never really does know. At the same time, this kind of reductive logic doesn't make for very good discussion. "Anything is possible" renders your point equally valid, or worthless, as its opposite.

Okay. It says no grey Knight has ever fallen to Chaos. I can't contradict that using the Codex, i can only say that they can be corrupted. And since they can be corrupted, eventually ones going to fall.

I understand you guys love your Pure Holy Grey Knights, but you have to admit its cannon they can be corrupted.

It'd be dumb if there was no chance of corrupting them. But by your logic, it doesn't matter what the codex says anyway -- it's probably just propaganda.

Exactly, propaganda to make them look like the Bestest, Bravest, Incorruptable-est badass Marines ever. Every codex is written to be propaganda for its respected army. Its trying to promote the army.

Manchu wrote:

Kanluwen wrote:The Grey Knights Codex actually does a fairly good job of it.

This is the best and maybe only worthwhile (hence best) comment I've ever seen someone make about the Draigo fluff.

The point of Draigo is not that he's invincible but that all his efforts (and by proxy, all of the Imperium's efforts) are useless against Chaos. So the questions that Mat Ward is trying to ask you, the hook he's trying to get into your imagination is: if you knew you could never win, would you still fight? What motivates a man to do so?

Kanluwen wins the thread. Possibly the 40k Discussion sub-forum.

No he doesn’t. Kanluwen has made this point before. Whilst yes, one can say that the “tragic, fleeting struggle” is what the author was going for, did the author achieve this in a reasonable and enjoyable manner? The answer is no.

The motivations and the tragedy are the underlying messages of the story BUT they are not the key focus of the story. The key focus in the story, due to the way it is written, is the repeated attempts to emphasise Draigo’s physical prowess and victories above all else. Why is Draigo written to be victorious against a daemon primarch versus other possible daemonic villains that could have been used? Why is Draigo able to reforge a daemonic weapon with ease? Why is Draigo single-handedly victorious in all combat he participates against? Why is Draigo able to escape from the warp to lead the Grey Knights to victory when he is needed?

If the intention was to focus on Draigo as a tragic figure then there would be more focus on Draigo’s inner workings, symbolism, themes and parallels. Instead we see a piece that dictates victory after victory. There is little character discussion or development for Draigo in the entire piece making it hard to understand his motivations or his reasoning to persevere. If anything, his victories emphasise his existence as symbol of destruction against Chaos itself (in all forms, no matter how powerful).

By all means, one can say he is tragic, it does not change the fact that at the end of the day, Draigo is a mary sue, doomed to exist in a poorly written piece of fiction.

It seems to me that the focus on Draigo being so powerful, so strong, able to do so much is to emphasize how powerful chaos is. It wouldn't be much of a point if he achieved merely reasonable "victories" over his enemies.

candy.man wrote:
The motivations and the tragedy are the underlying messages of the story BUT they are not the key focus of the story. The key focus in the story, due to the way it is written, is the repeated attempts to emphasise Draigo’s physical prowess and victories above all else.

Really? Heh. Because to me at least it seemed that the stuff that Ward focuses most upon is spiritual incorruptibility.

Why is Draigo written to be victorious against a daemon primarch versus other possible daemonic villains that could have been used?

Like what? The Bloodthirsters--which Sanguinius was able to break over his knee? Which Inquisitor Rex was able to banish (after defeating in martial combat, mind you) the most powerful of himself?

The Great Unclean Ones, who really don't look all too physically imposing and are defeated pretty handily by non-Grey Knights?

Lords of Change? Please. We already have a Grey Knight whose arch enemy is a Lord of Change, and where it is the 'main daemonic villain'.
Brother-Captain Stern ring a bell?

Keepers of Secret? We have a place where that happens too, Prince Tyrion in WHFB.

Why is Draigo able to reforge a daemonic weapon with ease?

Probably because it was in the Warp at the time, where even the weakest physical body can be a demigod provided their psyker capabilities are powerful enough?

Why is Draigo single-handedly victorious in all combat he participates against?

Who knows. Maybe he's just that good.

Why is Draigo able to escape from the warp to lead the Grey Knights to victory when he is needed?

He's not. He's "able to escape" from the Warp when the barrier between the material realm and the Immaterium is at its thinnest--y'know, like when there's a huge Daemonic incursion...which the Grey Knights usually will happen to be at.

Kanluwen wrote:The Great Unclean Ones, who really don't look all too physically imposing

?

They look fat, but so do most Olympic strongmen...

Thanks for your reply Kan. To me at least, Ward didn’t focus so much on the spirit of corruptibility per say but rather he is unstoppable against chaos. The spirit of incorruptibility was better emphasised through Stern, Crowe and Mordrak. There’s no duality or mental struggle with Draigo, to emphaise incorruptibility. The entire piece practically bullet points victories in physical prowess only.

In regards to a choice of opponent, these are not good enough reasons why Draigo should defeat a daemon primarch. Sanguinius was a primarch it took a very great feat to break the Bloodthirster’s back. It was not an incredibly easy task for Sanguinius to do this.

As for Rex, his victory over Angrath was partly due to luck and plot armour otherwise Rex profile would be vastly superior to Angrath’s. Rex’s victory was a 1 in a million victory and it is not like he is able to vanquish apoc daemons at the drop of a hat.

As for the other choices, why are these inappropriate? All greater daemons are powerful and only the best of the best of Grey Knights can go toe to toe with one without wearing Dreadknight armour. Draigo is a talented individual and it would have been a great read if he was victorious against a normal greater daemon. There is no need for Draigo’s victories to be bigger and better than everyone else. A daemon primarch is above Draigo’s level in terms of fluff and power and thus makes it an unrealistic read.

As for his prowess, why was he written to be that good? What purpose does it serve? It took 100 Grey Knights to sacrifice their lives to banish Angron with their psychic blast. Does that mean Draigo has the strength of 100 Grey Knights? If Draigo can defeat a daemon primarch, does that mean he is as strong as a primarch? Again, making Draigo extremely powerful and extremely victorious makes his story unbelievable

candy.man wrote:It took 100 Grand Masters to sacrifice their lives to banish Angron, does that mean Draigo has the strength of 100 Grand Masters?

Whoa now.

It took 100 Grey Knight Terminators, the highest ranked one being a Brother Captain. And they also had to fight Angron's Bloodthirster bodyguard.

Oh sorry, my bad, that is what I meant. According to the lexi, they summoned a giant psychic blast to banish him.

candy.man wrote:Oh sorry, my bad, that is what I meant. According to the lexi, they summoned a giant psychic blast to banish him.

Actually, the remaining Terminators, a few dozen, I think, focused all of their power into one psychic attack, stronger than the sum of its parts, and fired it at Angron, like you said... Only that didn't banish Angron. It should have, but through sheer force of will he clung to the Materium. The Brother Captain then beheaded him.

A bit more dignified and manly a defeat than pushed to the ground and written on.

In principal Draigo defeating Mortarion isn't bad, but it's the fact that it was done in such a humiliating manner.

Say Draigo were to of instead used the last of his psychic might to force Mortarion, who so recently murdered the former Supreme Grand Master, to his knees, and using his sanctified blade he carved a holy seal into the Daemon Primarch's heart, invoking the blessed name of the deceased Supreme Grand Master, perhaps channeling his fading Warp Essence, to banish him.

Or something stupid like that. It beats "I forced him to the ground and wrote a name on his heart."

candy.man wrote:Again, making Draigo extremely powerful and extremely victorious makes his story unbelievable

What a strange criticism of 40k fluff. Again, if he wasn't extremely powerful and victorious his story wouldn't work at all.

I think a huge part of the problem is that the entire battle is just one longer than normal timeline entry. Hopefully, we'll get a WD short story or BL book that will give us the details we need in the future.

As much as I would like to read a Draigo themed black library book, I would hate to constantly read everyone post how bad it is...just because Draigo is in it...

Manchu wrote:

candy.man wrote:Again, making Draigo extremely powerful and extremely victorious makes his story unbelievable

What a strange criticism of 40k fluff. Again, if he wasn't extremely powerful and victorious his story wouldn't work at all.

But there in lies the other problem with his fluff being that he exists solely to be victorious in battle. In order for the intended nature of his fluff to work, being the incorruptibility, perseverance and tragedy, the author would have written his story differently, emphasising on his inner workings, not unparalleled victories.

If the entire purpose of his fluff is to make Draigo seem powerful and unstoppable then making Draigo unparalleled in terms of strength would fit but that would be admitting that the tragedy aspect is not the key focus for the story, therefore admitting that the entire purpose of Draigo’s existence is as a mary sue.

bombboy1252 wrote:As much as I would like to read a Draigo themed black library book, I would hate to constantly read everyone post how bad it is...just because Draigo is in it...

QFT. I dread the release of the Necron codex for this reason. From what yakface has posted, it sounds very good (not to say I didn't like the last one) but Dakka will be inundated with hatred for weeks and weeks. OTT, most people will completely forget that he wrote the GK dex in this same period. We might ask ourselves: what unfortunate Necron Lord will be the new whipping boy? And I can't wait for all the image macros, let me tell you. Fortunately, named characters don't seem to make it into much of the BL books anymore or vice versa.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

candy.man wrote:... therefore admitting that the entire purpose of Draigo’s existence is as a mary sue.

Not at all. The focus is on his overwhelming strength at-arms because he is a warrior character in a game about fighting wars, often involving hand-to-hand combat with monstrous creatures. I'm not stupid, I know the character was written with this context in mind -- I just don't think that's all there is to him nor do I think Mat Ward wrote this character to stand in for himself to fulfill his own fantasies (which as I understand it is the definition of the word Mary Sue). Like I keep saying, in order for the idea of Chaos being insurmountably overpowering to come through, Draigo has to be OTT awesome (which is just fine in 40k; realism is of no value when we talk about the space knight fighting the demon monster). We don't need to know about Draigo's inner struggles to get that Chaos is ultimately invincible. We just need to know that even him, the ultimate anti-daemon badass, cannot make a lasting dent. And for that to be astonishing, the temporary dents he does make have to be huge.