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A Draigo Black library book that retcons the mary sue nature of his fluff would actually be pretty good. It would need to have deep character narration from Draigo himself and thoroughly explore the psychological aspects of his journey.

What everyone would hate would be a book that further accentuates his mary sue nature. I wouldn’t want to read 500 pages of how Draigo roundhouse kicks all opponents that dare cross his path.

It's largely opinion.

Personally, as a Necron fan, I dread the rumors of the new fluff, but hold nothing against those who like it.

I will ask this though: Other than being Grey Knight+, what distinguishing character traits does Draigo have?

Even if his "struggle" is indeed futile and even if it were conveyed convincingly, which I don't think it is, I really can't give a gak about someone's struggle when their entire history consists of some guy doing a bunch of things.

I recognise that that describes a few 40k characters, but I don't think that excuses it. Quite the contrary, really.

Marbo is another such character, lacking any interesting character traits. He's just some guy who does things.

Also, a Mary Sue is not necessarily an Author Avatar Manchu. But I don't think Draigo is a traditional Mary Sue because, quite simply, he doesn't really have any character traits to signify him as one... He's a Godmode Sue though, I'd say.

Darn TV Tropes making its way into my forum posting.

candy.man wrote:A Draigo Black library book that retcons the mary sue nature of his fluff would actually be pretty good. It would need to have deep character narration from Draigo himself and thoroughly explore the psychological aspects of his journey.

What everyone would hate would be a book that further accentuates his mary sue nature. I wouldn’t want to read 500 pages of how Draigo roundhouse kicks all opponents that dare cross his path.

Sounds good. I might enjoy a series of it depending on the writer and how it was done.

My favorite superhero is Batman. He's a "normal" human being who whups the gak out of everyone, including Supes when he gets out of hand. The fact that he is so fething tenacious -- in fact, Batman is pretty well OTT -- does not make me like him less. That's one of the reasons I like him and find him interesting. Here's this non-powered character that stands toe-to-toe with cosmically powerful beings. With Draigo, it's a bit like that. When Batman opens up on the bad guys, I'm rooting for him and not complaining about "they just want to sell more comics" or "that is totally unrealistic" or "he's just Tony Daniel's mary sue." As Batman is to Superman so Draigo is to greater daemons. (You have to keep in mind that 40k generally is far more OTT than almost anything in comics, at least DC Comics.) The fact that he's not a Primarch, or something like that, and still chews the face off of Mortarion and a Lord of Change, etc, makes him cool to me along those same lines. It makes me think "this is one tenacious guy." And the fact that even he can't do anything about Chaos in the long-term -- well, that's the bleak truth of it, the GrimDark. That's the twist that makes him truly great because it's not like he doesn't know this. Why not just give in? But he doesn't because he's a tenacious, daemon-stomping sonuvabitch GK grand master. Kaldor Draigo runs up to Mortarion, writes some fallen GK's name on his heart, and might as well be screaming "I'm the goddamned Batman!" right in his corrupted ear. Mat Ward may not be Shakespeare but I like the character and I don't think him being OTT (in 40k of all places, where everything else has always been so reasonable and believable and focused on characters' feelings and moods) is any kind of problem.

Manchu wrote:My favorite superhero is Batman. He's a "normal" human being who whups the gak out of everyone, including Supes when he gets out of hand. The fact that he is so fething tenacious -- in fact, Batman is pretty well OTT -- does not make me like him less. That's one of the reasons I like him and find him interesting. Here's this non-powered character that stands toe-to-toe with cosmically powerful beings. With Draigo, it's a bit like that. When Batman opens up on the bad guys, I'm rooting for him and not complaining about "they just want to sell more comics" or "that is totally unrealistic" or "he's just Tony Daniel's mary sue." As Batman is to Superman so Draigo is to greater daemons. (You have to keep in mind that 40k generally is far more OTT than almost anything in comics, at least DC Comics.) The fact that he's not a Primarch, or something like that, and still chews the face off of Mortarion and a Lord of Change, etc, makes him cool to me along those same lines. It makes me think "this is one tenacious guy." And the fact that even he can't do anything about Chaos in the long-term -- well, that's the bleak truth of it, the GrimDark. That's the twist that makes him truly great because it's not like he doesn't know this. Why not just give in? But he doesn't because he's a tenacious, daemon-stomping sonuvabitch GK grand master. Kaldor Draigo runs up to Mortarion, writes some fallen GK's name on his heart, and might as well be screaming "I'm the goddamned Batman!" right in his corrupted ear. Mat Ward may not be Shakespeare but I like the character and I don't think him being OTT (in 40k of all places, where everything else has always been so reasonable and believable and focused on characters' feelings and moods) is any kind of problem.

I hate Batman. I hate everything about him. Just thought you should know.

If you like characters who run around beating the gak out of everything while not giving a single feth... Well, all the more power to you I guess.

And if you like characters who run around getting the gak beat out of them while crying big tears of sensitivity, more power to you as well. I just think that you're not going to find what you're looking for in 40k.

....That was the best Draigo defense I have ever heard Manchu.....

And if you like to over analyze bad writing trying to justify it more power to you.

I am not defending or attacking the mary sue status of Draigo; but until more info comes out(from a better writer no less) just deal with Draigo being the wet dream enemy of Chuck Norris until then.

Varrick wrote: And if you like to over analyze bad writing trying to justify it more power to you.

If you like to say someones writing is bad because you barely analyzed it at all...more power to you as well...

bombboy1252 wrote:

Varrick wrote: And if you like to over analyze bad writing trying to justify it more power to you.

If you like to say someones writing is bad because you barely analyzed it at all...more power to you as well...

The over analyzing is going into inception mode of "hes a marry sue meant to be tragic, then a tragedy meant to be a marry sue, and so on.

Frankly i am not sick of draigo threads because of the subject matter or Wards writing but how everyone has this "we must go deeper" mentality. I keep expecting the Balrog to burst free from the thread. But i am sick of them.

Manchu wrote:And if you like characters who run around getting the gak beat out of them while crying big tears of sensitivity, more power to you as well. I just think that you're not going to find what you're looking for in 40k.

Yeah I never said that. I never said Draigo should never win.

I apologise for my perhaps condescending tone in my last post, but I personally find Draigo's fluff stupid, OTT (Even by 40k's standards), and if it meant to convey a tragic or grimdark tone, I honestly believe it failed, completely, wholly, and utterly. Draigo is capable of feats that not a single other being has matched within the setting. It's so incredibly OTT any theme Ward was going for is lost in the bad writing, I can't look at his fluff and think "Wow that's tragic" when he kicks the gak out of all comers in the Materium or in the Warp, and does ridiculous crap like burn down the Gardens of Nurgle's domain, or smashes the Inevitable City to rubble (The fact that he even made it to the City past the labyrinth is insane in of itself).

No codex is some incredible literary achievement. But I find Draigo's fluff particularly bad.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Varrick wrote:I keep expecting the Balrog to burst free from the thread. But i am sick of them.

+1

Varrick wrote:

bombboy1252 wrote:

Varrick wrote: And if you like to over analyze bad writing trying to justify it more power to you.

If you like to say someones writing is bad because you barely analyzed it at all...more power to you as well...

The over analyzing is going into inception mode of "hes a marry sue meant to be tragic, then a tragedy meant to be a marry sue, and so on.

Frankly i am not sick of draigo threads because of the subject matter or Wards writing but how everyone has this "we must go deeper" mentality. I keep expecting the Balrog to burst free from the thread. But i am sick of them.

Whenever I see a Draigo thread, I just keep seeing people post "Pffft, what a mary sue" and "Theirs no way a Grey Knight would be able to kill a daemon primarch"

I find these threads start because people don't look deeper, and if they learned how to analyze a short story in highschool, it could of all been avoided in the first place...

bombboy1252 wrote:Whenever I see a Draigo thread, I just keep seeing people post "Pffft, what a mary sue" and "Theirs no way a Grey Knight would be able to kill a daemon primarch"

I find these threads start because people don't look deeper, and if they learned how to analyze a short story in highschool, it could of all been avoided in the first place...

How do you figure?

Void__Dragon wrote:

bombboy1252 wrote:Whenever I see a Draigo thread, I just keep seeing people post "Pffft, what a mary sue" and "Theirs no way a Grey Knight would be able to kill a daemon primarch"

I find these threads start because people don't look deeper, and if they learned how to analyze a short story in highschool, it could of all been avoided in the first place...

How do you figure?

What do I figure, what part of my post are you asking about?

Varrick, let me re-analyze it at what you seem to consider the appropriate level: MarySue MarySue Draigo MarySue MarySue MarySue MarySue Mat Ward MarySue 40k MarySue MarySue MarySue MarySue MarySue MarySue MarySue MarySue MarySue MarySue unrealistic MarySue MarySue MarySue Mortarion MarySue Draigo MarySue MarySue MarySue MarySue MarySue. (sources: 1d4chan and TV Tropes)

V__D: I don't think you're bad or stupid for liking different things than me. I mean, it's one thing to say "X is not to my taste" and it's another thing to say "X is objectively worthless for everyone." So I appreciate that you admit you don't like Draigo personally rather than stating, as I have read again and again on Dakka, that no reasonable fan of 40k could possibly like Draigo.

bombboy1252 wrote:What do I figure, what part of my post are you asking about?

The second part, mostly.

Manchu wrote:My favorite superhero is Batman. He's a "normal" human being who whups the gak out of everyone, including Supes when he gets out of hand. The fact that he is so fething tenacious -- in fact, Batman is pretty well OTT -- does not make me like him less. That's one of the reasons I like him and find him interesting. Here's this non-powered character that stands toe-to-toe with cosmically powerful beings. With Draigo, it's a bit like that. When Batman opens up on the bad guys, I'm rooting for him and not complaining about "they just want to sell more comics" or "that is totally unrealistic" or "he's just Tony Daniel's mary sue." As Batman is to Superman so Draigo is to greater daemons. (You have to keep in mind that 40k generally is far more OTT than almost anything in comics, at least DC Comics.) The fact that he's not a Primarch, or something like that, and still chews the face off of Mortarion and a Lord of Change, etc, makes him cool to me along those same lines. It makes me think "this is one tenacious guy." And the fact that even he can't do anything about Chaos in the long-term -- well, that's the bleak truth of it, the GrimDark. That's the twist that makes him truly great because it's not like he doesn't know this. Why not just give in? But he doesn't because he's a tenacious, daemon-stomping sonuvabitch GK grand master. Kaldor Draigo runs up to Mortarion, writes some fallen GK's name on his heart, and might as well be screaming "I'm the goddamned Batman!" right in his corrupted ear. Mat Ward may not be Shakespeare but I like the character and I don't think him being OTT (in 40k of all places, where everything else has always been so reasonable and believable and focused on characters' feelings and moods) is any kind of problem.

Didn’t you state earlier that the purpose of his story is to emphasise Draigo as a tragic figure. Are you now saying his purpose is to be a bad ass?

I don’t think Batman is a good comparison here as the Batman comics, especially the newer takes on his origin story, deeply analyse his inner workings and how he came to be. He does not battle criminals solely be victorious but rather for Gotham itself so other people don’t experience a similar tragedy to the one he encountered as a child. He often takes the extra step to get the job done. He often wins battles with his mind, rather than his physical strength and the fact that Superman has entrusted kryptonite with Batman says a lot about his character. There’s also a duality with between his physical and mental struggles and his good/bad moral actions. Whilst Batman is often victorious, the emphasis is never on his victories.

Draigo lacks everything that makes Batman good. There is no analysis on his character, no duality, no mental struggle, no defining character traits, nothing that defines him outside of battle. All that exists with Draigo are battles and victories with each opponent seemingly more powerful than the previous.

Now if Draigo’s profile was written to have the same level of depth and quality as Batman (as silly as it sounds) that would make his story a lot more palatable amongst the fanbase.

Void__Dragon wrote:

bombboy1252 wrote:What do I figure, what part of my post are you asking about?

The second part, mostly.

ahh....okay

I believe people just quickly read through Draigo's bit of fluff, and immediately decide "well this guy is just more Ward crap, what a load of gak, this guy just ridiculous"
and if they were to actually re-read, and analyze with the rest of the GK background, they would find out that Draigo's fluff is basically what the entirety of the Grey Knights are doing.
(Defeating daemons, but the daemons just come back, and theirs nothing they can do about it)

But that's just my opinion on it...

Manchu wrote:V__D: I don't think you're bad or stupid for liking different things than me. I mean, it's one thing to say "X is not to my taste" and it's another thing to say "X is objectively worthless for everyone." So I appreciate that you admit you don't like Draigo personally rather than stating, as I have read again and again on Dakka, that no reasonable fan of 40k could possibly like Draigo.

Well as a Necron fan I'm obligated to, since my favorite faction has a hatedom of its own as well.

And besides, I've accepted that some people can have legitimate reasons for liking Leman Russ, a character I like less than Draigo.

Do note I don't think every character needs to be INCREDIBLY DEEP AND BROODING or anything like that, I just would prefer to get an inkling of a character's personality from the fluff, even if it's not particularly original or complex. Which sounds hypocritical, now that I think of it, being a Necron fan...

It's all in good fun anyway. I try not to get serious about a fictional universe like 40k.

@c.m: Just like with Draigo, you want Batman to be all about the mental facet of his character. But he's a superhero and not a character on a soap opera. Yeah, he's complex emotionally but the only reason any of us care about that is because he kicks ass. So you're trying to make me out as contradicting myself: is Draigo supposed to emphasize the power of Chaos (I never, never used the word "tragic" and never would) -OR- is he a badass. This illustrates the part of my point that you keep missing -- Draigo MUST be a badass in order to drive home the point that Chaos is so powerful.

Manchu wrote:@c.m: Just like with Draigo, you want Batman to be all about the mental facet of his character. But he's a superhero and not a character on a soap opera. Yeah, he's complex emotionally but the only reason any of us care about that is because he kicks ass. So you're trying to make me out as contradicting myself: is Draigo supposed to emphasize the power of Chaos (I never, never used the word "tragic" and never would) -OR- is he a badass. This illustrates the part of my point that you keep missing -- Draigo MUST be a badass in order to drive home the point that Chaos is so powerful.

Comic books are just as capable of depth and complexity as any other medium IMO. I think great comics like Watchmen, The Killing Joke, Arkham Asylum: A Serious House on Serious Earth, All-Star Superman, and Kingdom Come and stuff have proven that, at least in my mind.

In fact, I'd say soap operas are easily one of the worst forms of media.

A bit off-topic, admittedly. Will balance it out with an off-topic response!

bombboy1252 wrote:ahh....okay

I believe people just quickly read through Draigo's bit of fluff, and immediately decide "well this guy is just more Ward crap, what a load of gak, this guy just ridiculous"
and if they were to actually re-read, and analyze with the rest of the GK background, they would find out that Draigo's fluff is basically what the entirety of the Grey Knights are doing.
(Defeating daemons, but the daemons just come back, and theirs nothing they can do about it)

But that's just my opinion on it...

Some people obviously do, and a lot of Ward's fluff is blown way out of proportion, namely the alleged Blood Angel x Necron "brofist."

But at the same time, some have read it, have discussed it thoroughly, and still don't like it.

I take no issue with you for liking it, but I personally don't find it as, for lack of better term, "deep", or maybe "interesting," as you do.

Or rather, I think some of the themes you talk about are there, but the execution was really lackluster, IMO.

Void__Dragon wrote:

bombboy1252 wrote:ahh....okay

I believe people just quickly read through Draigo's bit of fluff, and immediately decide "well this guy is just more Ward crap, what a load of gak, this guy just ridiculous"
and if they were to actually re-read, and analyze with the rest of the GK background, they would find out that Draigo's fluff is basically what the entirety of the Grey Knights are doing.
(Defeating daemons, but the daemons just come back, and theirs nothing they can do about it)

But that's just my opinion on it...

Some people obviously do, and a lot of Ward's fluff is blown way out of proportion, namely the alleged Blood Angel x Necron "brofist."

But at the same time, some have read it, have discussed it thoroughly, and still don't like it.

I take no issue with you for liking it, but I personally don't find it as, for lack of better term, "deep", or maybe "interesting," as you do.

Or rather, I think some of the themes you talk about are there, but the execution was really lackluster, IMO.

Than I believe were going to have to agree to disagree good sir. *puts on hat, and leaves the thread....never to be seen again*

Manchu wrote:@c.m: Just like with Draigo, you want Batman to be all about the mental facet of his character. But he's a superhero and not a character on a soap opera. Yeah, he's complex emotionally but the only reason any of us care about that is because he kicks ass. So you're trying to make me out as contradicting myself: is Draigo supposed to emphasize the power of Chaos (I never, never used the word "tragic" and never would) -OR- is he a badass. This illustrates the part of my point that you keep missing -- Draigo MUST be a badass in order to drive home the point that Chaos is so powerful.

You sort of missed my point about Batman. I was getting that that because his is character traits are complex, his capabilities are easier to palate. Yes he is a bad ass superhero and the reason why we read but if this was his sole defining trait than no one would like Batman. It’s one of the reasons why no one writes 1950’s style comic book plots anymore.

Which brings us back to the power thing? You can’t have a single person emphasise the opposite of chaos or oppose it single handedly. No matter no many victories to tack on his belt and to do that it makes the entire his story unbelievable and silly. If there were more to Draigo than to just his existence to oppose Chaos itself in all forms in a victorious manner, there might be justification to his story but there isn’t (Batman has complex character traits which justifies his capabilities). That is the key flaw with his background. He is defined solely by defeating powerful opponents and nothing else. He exists solely to defeat powerful opponents. There aren’t any character traits whatsoever to make the suggested Chaos symbolism work. He lacks the depth to make the comparison work. You can’t have a deep meaningful comparison like the one you’re suggesting if there isn’t any depth to the story to begin with.

And to say he must be super duper strong in order for this comparison to work is also silly as there ways to have him symbolically oppose chaos without having Draigo literally do it with his sword every time.

What's amusing about this whole discussion is that, honestly, guys, Games Workshop just ain't that deep.

We're talking about the company that's given us Sly Marbo, Ferrus Mannus of the Iron Hands, Canis Wolfborn, "Nevermore!", and countless other characters and references with the depth of your average spit puddle.

If it looks like a duck, walks like a duck, and quacks like a duck, it's probably not a Sisyphean allegory for the Imperium as a whole. It's probably a badly-written duck.

I dunno about any sort of "metaphor for the Imperium" stuff, there's nothing in Draigo's fluff that really indicts that, I at least agree it's not intentional. However, he still deliberately meant to have a tragic aspect.

Seaward wrote:What's amusing about this whole discussion is that, honestly, guys, Games Workshop just ain't that deep.

We're talking about the company that's given us Sly Marbo, Ferrus Mannus of the Iron Hands, Canis Wolfborn, "Nevermore!", and countless other characters and references with the depth of your average spit puddle.

If it looks like a duck, walks like a duck, and quacks like a duck, it's probably not a Sisyphean allegory for the Imperium as a whole. It's probably a badly-written duck.

So, you're saying that codex writers and BL authors just throw sh*t together without putting any thought into it....they just want it to be "KYOOOOOL"

If that were the case, than their would only ever be 1 codex writer at a time, the codexs would be half the size they are now because their would barely be any fluff, and the codex would come out twice as fast because they have less to write...

Just because a company puts little "easter eggs" if you will, doesn't mean they just love to throw gak together...

bombboy1252 wrote:

Seaward wrote:What's amusing about this whole discussion is that, honestly, guys, Games Workshop just ain't that deep.

We're talking about the company that's given us Sly Marbo, Ferrus Mannus of the Iron Hands, Canis Wolfborn, "Nevermore!", and countless other characters and references with the depth of your average spit puddle.

If it looks like a duck, walks like a duck, and quacks like a duck, it's probably not a Sisyphean allegory for the Imperium as a whole. It's probably a badly-written duck.

So, you're saying that codex writers and BL authors just throw sh*t together without putting any thought into it....they just want it to be "KYOOOOOL"

If that were the case, than their would only ever be 1 codex writer at a time, the codexs would be half the size they are now because their would barely be any fluff, and the codex would come out twice as fast because they have less to write...

Just because a company puts little "easter eggs" if you will, doesn't mean they just love to throw gak together...

No, I'm saying that codex writers write for fourteen year-olds.

Seaward wrote:No, I'm saying that codex writers write for fourteen year-olds.

+1 to this.

bombboy1252 wrote:

Durza wrote:

Manchu wrote:

Durza wrote:No, the question Ward is trying to ask you is [fratboy impression].

Pointing out that GW employees want you to buy GW products is ... less than insightful. If that criticism makes Mat Ward's fiction suck then every single part of all 40k fiction and all fiction that is tied to a marketed franchise also sucks. So I think we had better take it for what it is and limit our criticism to what the man actually wrote -- a character who is the most effective, purest champion humanity can possibly generate and yet who cannot really stand up against Chaos at all. That's classic grimdark. Run it through the IQ-destroying culture of internet memes and it becomes the fratboy impression you just posted.

So you're saying that the Draigo fluff is well written, insightful, and would have been considered remotely possible before the Grey Knights codex came out? Draigo's fluff explicitly states that not only can he stand up to Chaos, he regularly does, with impunity. And just because the majority of people agree something is terrible, it doesn't mean you're right when you say it's not. Classic grimdark would be if Mortarion came back and carved Nurgle's name in Draigo after Draigo was tired, because it would show their struggle is in fact hopeless. Your idiotic internet meme (yes, I can call your opinions memes to) reads into it far beyond what the writing deserves. Does Draigo get bested while fighting these innumerable hordes? No, because Ward doesn't want grim dark, he wants to have his own characters that are clearly better than anyone elses, because he says so.

It's quite amusing how instead of saying anything to refute my opinion, you simply slap the latest slang term over it and insult me, and will likely do so again.

1) Thats exactly what hes saying

2) Like the rest of the Grey Knights?

3) Their all opinions...

4) Draigo does a good job of that all ready...

5) Don't act like a fratboy if you don't want people saying you're acting like a fratboy...

1)Then I feel sorry for him and you, since you seem to agree with him.

2)If you count 'with a high chance of death' as 'with impunity', then yeah, sure.

3)Yes, they are, so there's no need to insult people over them. Especially when you're wrong.

4)Yes, being an invincible warrior defeating legions of daemons without ever getting hurt is really hopeless.

5)I would ask if you know what the actual meaning of fratboy is, but I don't really care.

Void__Dragon wrote:In principal Draigo defeating Mortarion isn't bad, but it's the fact that it was done in such a humiliating manner.

Say Draigo were to of instead used the last of his psychic might to force Mortarion, who so recently murdered the former Supreme Grand Master, to his knees, and using his sanctified blade he carved a holy seal into the Daemon Primarch's heart, invoking the blessed name of the deceased Supreme Grand Master, perhaps channeling his fading Warp Essence, to banish him.

Exactly. It's not that he necessarily won but it's the details, especially how Draigo had time to give the daemon open-heart surgery. Okay, so he took on the Primarch in revenge regardless of the threat it entailed, but the branding just comes across as just petty mickey-taking. To cap off it all, Mortarion 'escapes' afterwards. What kind of GK spends time doodling names after beating someone so powerful instead of properly banishing them? Draigo just reads like a snide bully and both characters seem incompetent.