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Wouldn't him escaping to the warp achieve essentially the same thing as a banishment though?

An interesting idea here: if Draigo can beat Mortarion and Draigo is legal for use, shouldn't that mean GW will have to bring Mortarion into use since he clearly wouldn't be a game breaker if Draigo, an existing playable model can beat him?

candy.man wrote:And to say he must be super duper strong in order for this comparison to work is also silly as there ways to have him symbolically oppose chaos without having Draigo literally do it with his sword every time.

I'm not missing your point. I'm disagreeing with it. The GrimDark isn't about symbolism. Rather than one thing standing for another, you simply have the thing itself. This is possible in a fictional world with warp daemons and space knights. J.R.R. Tolkien once described his fantasy characters as being on the outside who we (real people) are on the inside. It's the same idea, kicked into the highest gear, with 40k. There is no use in metaphorically fighting Chaos in a setting defined by endless war.

Yes, but the grim dark feeling of 40k was originally from two seemingly endless armies confronting each other in a war which would never end. Now its a contest between who has the most epic character.

Draigo is the epitome of endless confrontation.

Greyish wrote:To cap off it all, Mortarion 'escapes' afterwards. What kind of GK spends time doodling names after beating someone so powerful instead of properly banishing them? Draigo just reads like a snide bully and both characters seem incompetent.

Mortarion didn't just run away though. He couldn't return from the Warp for many years. Regardless of whether or not Draigo technically banished him, he did something with a similar effect. As has been speculated, it may have actually been a part of a ritual of some sort.

Manchu wrote:Draigo MUST be a badass in order to drive home the point that Chaos is so powerful.

Actually Draigo makes Chaos look weak. He destroys the realms of the Chaos gods and they can't do anything to stop him - all they can do is rebuild once he has moved on. Reading his fluff, the overwhelming impression I get is that this guy has only one defining character trait - invincibility. The only thing he hasn't succeeded in doing is permanently killing a Chaos god - and given how unstoppable he's made out be, I think one could be forgiven for concluding that the only reason why he hasn't killed a god (yet) is because they are afraid of him and are actively avoiding him. Really, if Draigo got in a fight with Khorne, who would win? If not Draigo, then why hasn't Khorne killed him?

Also I don't really think "inability to single-handedly rid the Warp of Chaos" makes him a flawed or tragic character.

Seaward wrote:

bombboy1252 wrote:

Seaward wrote:What's amusing about this whole discussion is that, honestly, guys, Games Workshop just ain't that deep.

We're talking about the company that's given us Sly Marbo, Ferrus Mannus of the Iron Hands, Canis Wolfborn, "Nevermore!", and countless other characters and references with the depth of your average spit puddle.

If it looks like a duck, walks like a duck, and quacks like a duck, it's probably not a Sisyphean allegory for the Imperium as a whole. It's probably a badly-written duck.

So, you're saying that codex writers and BL authors just throw sh*t together without putting any thought into it....they just want it to be "KYOOOOOL"

If that were the case, than their would only ever be 1 codex writer at a time, the codexs would be half the size they are now because their would barely be any fluff, and the codex would come out twice as fast because they have less to write...

Just because a company puts little "easter eggs" if you will, doesn't mean they just love to throw gak together...

No, I'm saying that codex writers write for fourteen year-olds.

You do know 14 year-olds know how to read a good story right? Just because they write books for teenagers doesn't mean that everything has to be "Boom boom exploshun boom killy kill kill BOOBS"

Their can actually be some good writing in it.....

bombboy1252 wrote:
You do know 14 year-olds know how to read a good story right? Just because they write books for teenagers doesn't mean that everything has to be "Boom boom exploshun boom killy kill kill BOOBS"

Their can actually be some good writing in it.....

While some 14 year olds will know a good story when they read it (I'll offer myself as a once-example) the majority of young men just entering their teenage years will much prefer the 'Boom boom exploshun boom killy kill kill BOOBS' to any sort of story with deep and though provoking symbolism.

Which is exactly what 40k offers.

bombboy1252 wrote:

Seaward wrote:

bombboy1252 wrote:

Seaward wrote:What's amusing about this whole discussion is that, honestly, guys, Games Workshop just ain't that deep.

We're talking about the company that's given us Sly Marbo, Ferrus Mannus of the Iron Hands, Canis Wolfborn, "Nevermore!", and countless other characters and references with the depth of your average spit puddle.

If it looks like a duck, walks like a duck, and quacks like a duck, it's probably not a Sisyphean allegory for the Imperium as a whole. It's probably a badly-written duck.

So, you're saying that codex writers and BL authors just throw sh*t together without putting any thought into it....they just want it to be "KYOOOOOL"

If that were the case, than their would only ever be 1 codex writer at a time, the codexs would be half the size they are now because their would barely be any fluff, and the codex would come out twice as fast because they have less to write...

Just because a company puts little "easter eggs" if you will, doesn't mean they just love to throw gak together...

No, I'm saying that codex writers write for fourteen year-olds.

You do know 14 year-olds know how to read a good story right? Just because they write books for teenagers doesn't mean that everything has to be "Boom boom exploshun boom killy kill kill BOOBS"

Their can actually be some good writing in it.....

But that requires more work than "kaboom BLAm ACK ACK ACK FWOOOSH".

Ray Bradbury wrote a short story set on Venus where the plant life grew at an extremely accelerated pace. So if you stood still for too long, the plants would even envelop and suffocate you. This is the image I have of Draigo in the Warp. Which story is more interesting:

(a) Draigo just has a little machete and chops a few vines out of his way and then they grow right back as if he never chopped them in the first place.

(b) Draigo has the ability to mow down an entire jungle in one fell swoop but as soon as he does so the jungle immediately grows back, rendering his power no less awesome but ineffective even so.

In either story, the jungle grows back and Draigo's efforts are ultimately futile. But when you just chop at a few vines that regenerate, the sense of futility is greatly diminished. That would be an appropriate story about some nameless Guardsmen. A hero of such titanic stature, literally the very best that the Imperium can produce at that point in its history, needs NOT ONLY a proportional challenge BUT ALSO at least some footing to face that challenge.

When a Greater Daemon tears a Guardsman in half without a thought, we don't find out much about how powerful the Daemon is. It was only Joe Guardsman, after all. Show the same Daemon carving through a squad of Space Marines and you're beginning to tell me something -- and it's because I know Space Marines are badass. I know they're badasses because that's one of the "rules" of the setting. There are a bunch of examples, little anecdotes and quotations, in their Codex and elsewhere that communicate this. Same with Draigo: we get an faceful of text about his long career of asskickery. So when he goes crazy on Chaos inside of the Warp we have a good sense that if anybody can do something about these Ruinous Powers, it'll be this guy.

But of course he can't do anything against them. Not really. In a world where time itself shifts, I think you guys are placing too much emphasis on Chaos having to "recover" from Draigo's attention. The point is that he could defeat Khorne in arm-wrestling, solve a rubiks cube faster than Tzeentch, drink Slaanesh under the table, and burp louder than Nurgle -- but in actuality, Khorne would ultimately force Draigo's arm down, Tzeetch would reveal that his rubiks cube was solved before they even started the timer, Slaanesh would get back up for round 2 ... through one million, and Nurgle's belch would not have been less loud but rather simply transcended the normally audial spectrum.

It just looks like Draigo wins. He never actually does. And the reason it looks so convincing is because we read about being able to do all this ridiculous gak -- if he can't win, then who can? Well, no one. Maybe the emperor -- but he's a husk that's been on life support for 10,000 years. That's the point. This is the GrimDark.

And, yes, I used the jungle example because Draigo actually does it. This was to save me from people saying "you're analyzing gak writing too deeply."

If you think that Draigo could beat Khorne in arm wrestling, you're either seriously under estimating Khorne or seriously over estimating Draigo.

And since it's ok for Draigo to wander around the warp killing things that get replaced, I guess you won't mind if the next Chaos codex has a daemon so powerful he jumped out of the Warp and wanders realspace destroying entire Space Marine chapters. After all, they can just get new marines, and the bit that says so at the end would show how the daemon's quest is pointless.

Manchu wrote:Draigo is the epitome of endless confrontation.

Yes, between the people who think he should be culled and the people who think he should be left as an example of why fans don't write codex fluff.

Durza wrote:And since it's ok for Draigo to wander around the warp killing things that get replaced, I guess you won't mind if the next Chaos codex has a daemon so powerful he jumped out of the Warp and wanders realspace destroying entire Space Marine chapters. After all, they can just get new marines, and the bit that says so at the end would show how the daemon's quest is pointless.

That's a ridiculous comparison. Daemons reform from the very substance of the Warp.

So? Daemons come back. The Imperium trains new marines.

If you defeat a daemon, it doesn't die. It does not end. It goes away for some period of time and then comes back. But it's the same daemon.

If you kill a Space Marine, that particular Marine is done. It will take decades to train a replacement and then further decades if not centuries to hone his abilities to the level of the Marine he replaced.

This is an obvious difference.

And yet, if it was a single daemon doing this, the impact would be unnoticeable. Just more casualties in the Imperium. And then he could go to Ultramar and start humping Guilliman's stasis pod after stealing Clagar's power fists.

if anything, Draigos fluff shows just how powerful he is! in Hammer of deamons Alaric has trouble keeping loyal and almost turns, and that was in the eye of terror. draigo lives in the warp itself and is still loyal!!

On the subject of why the gods haven't killed him yet, don't you think it could be that they literally haven't noticed him yet? I mean, think about it. They are literally gods. Their power, and thought processes go beyond what we could imagine. They haven't noticed him in the same way that you haven't noticed that there could be a spider in a certain part of your house, or there are useless files clogging up your hard disk. And at no point has Draigo burned down the gardens of nurgle, he set fire to a jungle, likely a small portion. In the same light, he has never touched the impossible city. He destroyed the fortress of M'Kachan, likely a personal demesne.

It's not a bad point although it suffers from not taking the published fluff on it's face. More likely, the Chaos Gods are just torturing him.

That works too. I prefer the idea that he is just too small to care about, being how much effort they put into fething each other over. But until we get some clarification (IE. Never), I guess we'll never know. Anyone saying they are scared of him, come on guys, thats verging on strawman.

I don't see what the big deal is about Draigo. He's stuck in the warp, kills stuff, and it comes back like it never happened. As for Mortarion, he didn't kill him, just scarred him, after he had just finished fighting one of the Imperium's best fighters. Boo hoo.

Now I'll tell you what a big deal is. Dreadknights. How can they turn a concept so awesome into something stupid by putting a baby carrier on the front? They really dropped the ball on that one.

Yeah, I wanna know how they messed up the Dread Knight myself.

If it was just a enclosed cockpit like thing it would be bearable, but with the pilot just dangling out in the front, with his legs and arms exposed...just why?

CthuluIsSpy wrote:

Brother Coa wrote:This again?

I will space iproxtaco from writing bible on "how I am wrong and he is right".

But seriously? Like this wasn't asked like 30 times since the codex was released.

What? Was that English? I really can't tell.

How do you space someone exactly? And "from writing bible"? What does that even mean?

Like I said, it's what people here would say. 3 post below that explain what I had in mind.
And that was not English, that was Serbian.

Brother Coa wrote:

CthuluIsSpy wrote:

Brother Coa wrote:This again?

I will space iproxtaco from writing bible on "how I am wrong and he is right".

But seriously? Like this wasn't asked like 30 times since the codex was released.

What? Was that English? I really can't tell.

How do you space someone exactly? And "from writing bible"? What does that even mean?

Like I said, it's what people here would say. 3 post below that explain what I had in mind.
And that was not English, that was Serbian.

Ah, that makes sense then.
Also, I hadn't realised this thread already had 4 pages. Derp

Randomonioum wrote:On the subject of why the gods haven't killed him yet, don't you think it could be that they literally haven't noticed him yet? I mean, think about it. They are literally gods. Their power, and thought processes go beyond what we could imagine. They haven't noticed him in the same way that you haven't noticed that there could be a spider in a certain part of your house, or there are useless files clogging up your hard disk. And at no point has Draigo burned down the gardens of nurgle, he set fire to a jungle, likely a small portion. In the same light, he has never touched the impossible city. He destroyed the fortress of M'Kachan, likely a personal demesne.

Only it says that the Warp carried only the stench of charcoal etc etc etc. Thus strongly implying that it was the whole jungle.

And there is but one Inevitable/Impossible City. Draigo destroyed it. To do this, he must of solved the Infinite Labyrinth.

Randomonioum wrote:On the subject of why the gods haven't killed him yet, don't you think it could be that they literally haven't noticed him yet?

Published fluff says that they cannot kill him.

Cannot. Think about that for a while.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Void__Dragon wrote:
And there is but one Inevitable/Impossible City. Draigo destroyed it. To do this, he must of solved the Infinite Labyrinth.

That's the part I find most outrageous, honestly. Homeboy solved Tzeentch's maze. Not only can he beat down primarchs, he's more cunning than Tzeentch.

Incidentally...how the hell does he resupply? You're saying he's been wearing the same suit of Terminator armor for centuries without maintenance?

Seaward wrote:

Randomonioum wrote:On the subject of why the gods haven't killed him yet, don't you think it could be that they literally haven't noticed him yet?

Published fluff says that they cannot kill him.

Cannot. Think about that for a while.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Void__Dragon wrote:
And there is but one Inevitable/Impossible City. Draigo destroyed it. To do this, he must of solved the Infinite Labyrinth.

That's the part I find most outrageous, honestly. Homeboy solved Tzeentch's maze. Not only can he beat down primarchs, he's more cunning than Tzeentch.

Incidentally...how the hell does he resupply? You're saying he's been wearing the same suit of Terminator armor for centuries without maintenance?

Logistics is a dangerous game to play here; and not even a tactical geniu- Whats that bit of string over there...

CREEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEED!

Seaward wrote:

Randomonioum wrote:On the subject of why the gods haven't killed him yet, don't you think it could be that they literally haven't noticed him yet?

Published fluff says that they cannot kill him.

Cannot. Think about that for a while.

Published fluff also says that every one of the Black Crusades almost destroyed the Imperium, and this is clearly not the case. And considering how many times things get exaggerated (like the word incorruptible appearing in almost every entry, usually with 'even more' in front of it) in that codex, it could just be that they can't corrupt him. Or they haven't tried to kill him yet.

Automatically Appended Next Post:

Void__Dragon wrote:
And there is but one Inevitable/Impossible City. Draigo destroyed it. To do this, he must of solved the Infinite Labyrinth.

That's the part I find most outrageous, honestly. Homeboy solved Tzeentch's maze. Not only can he beat down primarchs, he's more cunning than Tzeentch.

Incidentally...how the hell does he resupply? You're saying he's been wearing the same suit of Terminator armor for centuries without maintenance?

Clearly, he cut holes in the labyrinth. And as for resupply, he *censored*

Void__Dragon wrote:

Randomonioum wrote:On the subject of why the gods haven't killed him yet, don't you think it could be that they literally haven't noticed him yet? I mean, think about it. They are literally gods. Their power, and thought processes go beyond what we could imagine. They haven't noticed him in the same way that you haven't noticed that there could be a spider in a certain part of your house, or there are useless files clogging up your hard disk. And at no point has Draigo burned down the gardens of nurgle, he set fire to a jungle, likely a small portion. In the same light, he has never touched the impossible city. He destroyed the fortress of M'Kachan, likely a personal demesne.

Only it says that the Warp carried only the stench of charcoal etc etc etc. Thus strongly implying that it was the whole jungle.

And there is but one Inevitable/Impossible City. Draigo destroyed it. To do this, he must of solved the Infinite Labyrinth.

I have only Tzeentch's Lexicanum entry and a hazy memory from part of Slaves to Darkness excerpt to go off of currently, is it possible that you're getting the Impossible Fortress and the Inevitable City mixed up. And wasn't it a feature of the Inevitable City that wherever in Tzeentch's realm you traveled, you'd inevitable find your way there? I don't have my usual sources to check right now, so feel free to disregard.

Seaward wrote:
Published fluff says that they cannot kill him.

Cannot. Think about that for a while.

All that means is that he can beat any daemon horde or champion they bother to send his way.

Seaward wrote:
Incidentally...how the hell does he resupply? You're saying he's been wearing the same suit of Terminator armor for centuries without maintenance?

If you look at the timeline, Draigo's banishment to the warp only just happened on M41.999.
Some say he may have also obtained some otherworldy qualities as a temporary denizen of the Warp, eliminating the need to re-arm and repair as long as his brothers believe he will one day return.
Another idea is that he simply grabs ammo when he explodes out of the Warp from other nearby Grey Knights.

Why would we need primarchs when we got Draigo?

The Epic Chaosdude!!! wrote:Why would we need primarchs when we got Draigo?

Because Draigo's trapped in the warp and is essentially a Daemon the GK can summon for short periods of time? While the Primarches conquered the Galaxy...