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DeffDred wrote:I'm confused Melissia. Are you calling people unoriginal because of what they call their army or what they imagine is possible with an army?

Hm.

Melissia wrote:It's like these are the lowest common denominator of Chaos players, who have no imagination so all they do is copy-paste everyone else's army and claim it as their own instead.

I think that covers it. Mind you, I find CSMs to be dull, too, with my preferences leaning towards Lost and the Damned and Chaos Daemons as far as Chaos goes. LatD's combined human/xeno armies, heavy focus on mutations and psychic powers, weird tech and daemon-infested machines, and so on make it all the more a tragedy that it is no longer a supported army-- it has potential for a dazzling variety of playstyles, units, and lore. Meanwhile Daemons are one of the most unique armies in 40k with a playstyle, visual style, and general lore that is truly all their own.

Fluff may establish that SoB are essentially universally incorruptible, but there seems to be no logical reason for this.

Yes, they're hyper-fanatical, disciplined, and faithful, but they're only mortal and, realistically, Sisters would have fallen in the 'past' just like any others.

Well, that's a sucky Xmas present. Welcome back to SOB threads, M. Glad to see you're still keeping it civil. Thought we lost you to the OT forever.

On topic, turning is rare and should be treated as such. As much as I disagree with her methods, I agree that chaos sob is a silly concept. That being said, it's a big universe, do your thing.

And whoever has the primarch quote, that was great.


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Ronin-Sage wrote:Fluff may establish that SoB are essentially universally incorruptible, but there seems to be no logical reason for this.

Yes, they're hyper-fanatical, disciplined, and faithful, but they're only mortal and, realistically, Sisters would have fallen in the 'past' just like any others.

Faith. Other folks have it but sisters are faithful. Being filled with the actual light of the Emperor does wonders for your soul (and complexion).

Ronin-Sage wrote:realistically, Sisters would have fallen in the 'past' just like any others.

When you see the light of your god shine before you, guiding your bolter shells in to enemy weak points, giving you strength to tear apart orks, giving you speed to outmaneuver Eldar, blessing your weapons with the power to smite daemons and psykers and the corrupt with preternatural ease... causing you to be able to heal wounds with a touch, or to survive a titan's cannon with nary a scratch on your armor, to revive from the most deadly of wounds...

... well, how much more convincing do you have to have? Sisters KNOW the Emperor is their god. Their eyes have seen the glory. The Daughters of the Emperor are given blessings by He upon His Golden Throne that not even His sons, the Adeptus Astartes, receive. They live their life with purpose, knowing that they do His work, and that they will not die unless His purpose for them is fulfilled. They strip themselves of sin, seek penance for the merest slights, seek purity of body and soul-- and obtain it. Their loyalty to the Emperor is second to none. They are paladins in the Emperor's name, and His light flows through them.

Furthermore, not only does making an entire army of chaos-worshipping Sisters dilute (and directly contradict) their lore. it also dilutes the power of the few times one did betray the Emperor. Miriael Sabathiel's story is a powerful one precisely because it is unprecedented.

Ronin-Sage wrote:Fluff may establish that SoB are essentially universally incorruptible, but there seems to be no logical reason for this.

Yes, they're hyper-fanatical, disciplined, and faithful, but they're only mortal and, realistically, Sisters would have fallen in the 'past' just like any others.

By that reasoning so should Grey Knights..... logic only goes so far in 40k in the end its down to personal preference...........

@ Pretre - if you mean the "More Primarchs have fallen than Sisters" - that would be me - I really like it

Melissia wrote:When you see the light of your god shine before you, guiding your bolter shells in to enemy weak points, giving you strength to tear apart orks, giving you speed to outmaneuver Eldar, blessing your weapons with the power to smite daemons and psykers and the corrupt with preternatural ease... causing you to be able to heal wounds with a touch, or to survive a titan's cannon with nary a scratch on your armor, to revive from the most deadly of wounds...

... well, how much more convincing do you have to have? Sisters KNOW the Emperor is their god. Their eyes have seen the glory. The Daughters of the Emperor are given blessings by He upon His Golden Throne that not even His sons, the Adeptus Astartes, receive. They live their life with purpose, knowing that they do His work, and that they will not die unless His purpose for them is fulfilled. They strip themselves of sin, seek penance for the merest slights, seek purity of body and soul-- and obtain it. Their loyalty to the Emperor is second to none. They are paladins in the Emperor's name, and His light flows through them.

Furthermore, not only does making an entire army of chaos-worshipping Sisters dilute (and directly contradict) their lore. it also dilutes the power of the few times one did betray the Emperor. Miriael Sabathiel's story is a powerful one precisely because it is unprecedented.

Wow. Well put.


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@Mr Morden: Well done.

Melissia wrote:

Ronin-Sage wrote:realistically, Sisters would have fallen in the 'past' just like any others.

When you see the light of your god shine before you, guiding your bolter shells in to enemy weak points, giving you strength to tear apart orks, giving you speed to outmaneuver Eldar, blessing your weapons with the power to smite daemons and psykers and the corrupt with preternatural ease... causing you to be able to heal wounds with a touch, or to survive a titan's cannon with nary a scratch on your armor, to revive from the most deadly of wounds...

... well, how much more convincing do you have to have? Sisters KNOW the Emperor is their god. Their eyes have seen the glory. The Daughters of the Emperor are given blessings by He upon His Golden Throne that not even His sons, the Adeptus Astartes, receive. They live their life with purpose, knowing that they do His work, and that they will not die unless His purpose for them is fulfilled. They strip themselves of sin, seek penance for the merest slights, seek purity of body and soul-- and obtain it. Their loyalty to the Emperor is second to none. They are paladins in the Emperor's name, and His light flows through them.

Furthermore, not only does making an entire army of chaos-worshipping Sisters dilute (and directly contradict) their lore. it also dilutes the power of the few times one did betray the Emperor. Miriael Sabathiel's story is a powerful one precisely because it is unprecedented.

...I'm not quite sure how to respond to this, but you seem to have an awfully inflated view of the SoB.

Ronin-Sage wrote:...I'm not quite sure how to respond to this, but you seem to have an awfully inflated view of the SoB.

This is a very amusing statement for me, but whatever.

All of what she has said is fact. Just look at the actual rules/fluff.
- light of your god shine before you (Light of the Emperor)
- guiding your bolter shells in to enemy weak points (Divine Guidance)
- giving you strength to tear apart orks (Hand of the Emperor)
- giving you speed to outmaneuver Eldar (The Passion)
- blessing your weapons with the power to smite daemons and psykers and the corrupt with preternatural ease (Divine Guidance, Holy Fusillade, Emperor's Deliverance)
- causing you to be able to heal wounds with a touch, or to survive a titan's cannon with nary a scratch on your armor, to revive from the most deadly of wounds... (Spirit of the Martyr)
Sisters KNOW the Emperor is their god. Their eyes have seen the glory. The Daughters of the Emperor are given blessings by He upon His Golden Throne that not even His sons, the Adeptus Astartes, receive. They live their life with purpose, knowing that they do His work, and that they will not die unless His purpose for them is fulfilled. They strip themselves of sin, seek penance for the merest slights, seek purity of body and soul-- and obtain it. Their loyalty to the Emperor is second to none. They are paladins in the Emperor's name, and His light flows through them. (Easily proven by the fact that they are the only ones who receive magic powers from the Emperor)

pretre wrote:

Ronin-Sage wrote:...I'm not quite sure how to respond to this, but you seem to have an awfully inflated view of the SoB.

This is a very amusing statement for me, but whatever.

All of what she has said is fact. Just look at the actual rules/fluff.
- light of your god shine before you (Light of the Emperor)
- guiding your bolter shells in to enemy weak points (Divine Guidance)
- giving you strength to tear apart orks (Hand of the Emperor)
- giving you speed to outmaneuver Eldar (The Passion)
- blessing your weapons with the power to smite daemons and psykers and the corrupt with preternatural ease (Divine Guidance, Holy Fusillade, Emperor's Deliverance)
- causing you to be able to heal wounds with a touch, or to survive a titan's cannon with nary a scratch on your armor, to revive from the most deadly of wounds... (Spirit of the Martyr)
Sisters KNOW the Emperor is their god. Their eyes have seen the glory. The Daughters of the Emperor are given blessings by He upon His Golden Throne that not even His sons, the Adeptus Astartes, receive. They live their life with purpose, knowing that they do His work, and that they will not die unless His purpose for them is fulfilled. They strip themselves of sin, seek penance for the merest slights, seek purity of body and soul-- and obtain it. Their loyalty to the Emperor is second to none. They are paladins in the Emperor's name, and His light flows through them. (Easily proven by the fact that they are the only ones who receive magic powers from the Emperor)

Why are you bringing tabletop rules into a discussion about fluff like it's actually relevant? And regardless, let's say these feats are common(they're not) and not effectively miracles...how does this bolster the argument that says Sisters are incorruptible? Putting it that way, you're *hurting* your argument about purity of faith, because it's suggesting that Sisters are faithful because they 'see', when true faith wouldn't rely on such things(or benefits).

Ronin-Sage wrote:Why are you bringing tabletop rules into a discussion about fluff like it's actually relevant? And regardless, let's say these feats are common(they're not) and not effectively miracles...how does this bolster the argument that says Sisters are incorruptible? Putting it that way, you're *hurting* your argument about purity of faith, because it's suggesting that Sisters are faithful because they 'see', when true faith wouldn't rely on such things(or benefits).

Because tabletop rules have fluff of their own. It is difficult to separate them. It is well established that Sisters actually manifest faith on a regular basis in the fluff. Just because they happen a lot doesn't mean they aren't granted by the Emperor. Faith isn't any less faith because you know you're right. In fact, throughout history there are plenty of folks who 'knew' they were right and were faithful.


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New WD Dex wrote:The perfervid, unquestioning nature of this faith is a potent weapon, manifesting as divine inspiration that drives the Adepta Sororitas to unprecedented feats of prowess. Sisters of Battle gripped with holy fervour banish fears from their minds, shrug off wounds and summon great strength to smite their foes. Those who witness such miracles are left in no doubt that the Emperor indeed walks with these pious warriors.

That's the fluff section, btw, not the crunch.

I'm not aware of any fluff that says Sisters benefit from miracles on a regular basis(I'm sure there's a codex edition or two that has some pretty badass feats described, but if we counted codex feats as 'regular basis'...). What they *do* benefit from is some of the best training and equipment the Imperium has to offer, but come on, miracles? Regularly?

I can see the Emperor throwing a miracle the Sisters' way every now and then, and when he feels like it, maybe making one of them into a living saint, but what you're saying is that Sisters are superheroes of barely contained awesomeness and win.

Scroll up, read the quote I posted. If you want, I'll go ahead and find the one from each codex for you so we can establish a trend.

And as I've pointed out, if everyone took some fluff from their favorite army's codex and touted it as being 'the norm', everyone's army would be action-fantasy anime -level strong.

Ronin-Sage wrote:And as I've pointed out, if everyone took some fluff from their favorite army's codex and touted it as being 'the norm', everyone's army would be action-fantasy anime -level strong.

Umm. Except the rules match the fluff in this case and have in every edition. Sisters can do miraculous things based on faith.

You're kind of waffling here. First you were saying that the rules don't count because they are not fluff and now you're saying the fluff doesn't count because it's not rules. Make up your mind.

My mind has made up, and the consistent message has been Sisters aren't doing ass-impossible feats on a regular basis. The alternative is that they're cheese incarnate.

You, however, seem to want to believe that Sisters in fluff can benefit from tangible miracles on a regular basis, but I think that diminishes them. It's that their fanaticism and faith makes them strong, not that they're doing kamehameha waves regularly.

But you're free to believe whatever.

Ronin-Sage wrote:My mind has made up, and the consistent message has been Sisters aren't doing ass-impossible feats on a regular basis. The alternative is that they're cheese incarnate.

Yes, the only acceptable reason that the sisters are faithful and able to use that faith to smite their enemies is that they are cheese incarnate. Good call.

You, however, seem to want to believe that Sisters in fluff can benefit from tangible miracles on a regular basis, but I think that diminishes them. It's that their fanaticism and faith makes them strong, not that they're doing kamehameha waves regularly.

Their fanaticism and faith not only makes them strong but has physical manifestation. Is it so hard to believe that in a universe where aliens, magic mind bullets, daemons and spaceships exist that people might be able to physically manifest strong faith? Because it isn't for me.

But you're free to believe whatever.

The sun rises tomorrow. Tell your friends.

pretre wrote:

Ronin-Sage wrote:My mind has made up, and the consistent message has been Sisters aren't doing ass-impossible feats on a regular basis. The alternative is that they're cheese incarnate.

Yes, the only acceptable reason that the sisters are faithful and able to use that faith to smite their enemies is that they are cheese incarnate. Good call.

You, however, seem to want to believe that Sisters in fluff can benefit from tangible miracles on a regular basis, but I think that diminishes them. It's that their fanaticism and faith makes them strong, not that they're doing kamehameha waves regularly.

Their fanaticism and faith not only makes them strong but has physical manifestation. Is it so hard to believe that in a universe where aliens, magic mind bullets, daemons and spaceships exist that people might be able to physically manifest strong faith? Because it isn't for me.

Why are you assuming because I don't believe Sisters have a miracle script running in the background that they don't benefit from miracles at all? My view is that such things are possible, but very rare.

pretre wrote:

Ronin-Sage wrote:But you're free to believe whatever.

The sun rises tomorrow. Tell your friends.

No value in this, so I'm going to ignore it. Wait.

Ronin-Sage wrote:Why are you bringing tabletop rules into a discussion about fluff like it's actually relevant? And regardless, let's say these feats are common(they're not) and not effectively miracles...how does this bolster the argument that says Sisters are incorruptible? Putting it that way, you're *hurting* your argument about purity of faith, because it's suggesting that Sisters are faithful because they 'see', when true faith wouldn't rely on such things(or benefits).

Not just tabletop rules, but also rules in Dark Heresy (the stronger the act of faith is, the rarer it is, but veteran Sisters are preternaturally lucky in combat as a matter of course, represented by a talent which lets them achieve righteous fury [the game's version of critical hits, for those familiar with DnD] twice as often as any other class), and in lore (Canoness Praxedes, for example, single-handedly slew a hive tyrant in close combat, but it is specifically stated in C:WH that they train in a martial art that involves heavy amounts of prayer and allows them to perform feats which appear miraculous to the unschooled).

As for "true faith", you're misunderstanding. They have faith without doubt-- isn't that what true faith is?

Their eyes have seen the glory and removed all doubt.

Ronin-Sage wrote:Why are you assuming because I don't believe Sisters have a miracle script running in the background that they don't benefit from miracles at all? My view is that such things are possible, but very rare.

You've twisted things a bit off track. Sisters have true faith that protects them from the corruption of chaos. Their true faith is manifested by actual miracles. Hence the reason that sisters very rarely turn to chaos, like twice in history. Less than the number of primarchs.

For reference, the quote I refer to in C:WH is thus:

For millennia the Sisters have practiced their unique method of war combining combat doctrine and prayer which enables them to accomplish feats upon the battlefield that appear miraculous to the unschooled.

It's canon that Sisters of Battle accomplish miracles (Acts of Faith) on the battlefield on a regular basis.

Personally, I'm of the school that the Sisters' abilities are not "true miracles" (as this would require the existence of true divine magic, which is a concept I strongly object for 40k), but the result of their incredibly strong will, allowing them to not just go one but two extra miles with frightening ease. Their belief in the Emperor is so strong that it simply overrides conventional human limits, making them disregard minor wounds as if they weren't there, acting with utter regard to their own safety and survival if need be, or concentrate on a single task with such determination and mental focus that it enables them to become impromptu snipers. Stuff that can appear as miracles, but in reality isn't. You get my drift.

It is this incredible willpower which also makes them nearly immune to the temptations of Chaos, for when you look at how Chaos works, you will see that the Sisters simply don't have a lot of mental weaknesses where temptation could gain a foothold. Unlike the Imperial Guard or the Space Marines, the Sisters regularly undergo a stern regimen of humiliation and mortification designed to humble and thus fortify their spirits. Further, unlike the Imperial Guard or the Space Marines, the Sisters - at least the SoB - are all orphans "recruited" as babies; they never even knew a normal life and its pleasantries, and thus can never be tempted with what they might miss out on. It's a mixture of indoctrination, a very limited worldview, religious zeal and a missing childhood. In its grimdark, almost dehumanizing conditioning it is unrivalled by anything else in existence throughout the Imperium.

I've once read a short story from Ben Counter which had a Seraphim and a Marine Sergeant be subjected to corruption by a Daemon Prince, and I think the way it was handled there was pretty good:

Daemonblood wrote:"What curiously small creatures you are to present such a thorn in my side." The words roared and rumbled through the air, thick with dark amusement. "What little bundles of ignorant flesh. I am Parmenides, called the Vile, chosen Prince of Nurgle. I am the virus which the Plague God sends to infect your mortal worlds. I am the festering in your wounded empire. Do creatures as insignificant as yourselves have names, too, I wonder?"
"Sergeant Castus of the Ultramarines, Second Company", the Marine replied in a defiant voice, as if he were trying to impress the daemon prince.
The horrific gaze turned to Aescarion, questioning.
"I would not give you my name, though it cost my soul", the Battle Sister snarled, and she gripped her axe tighter.
"Such a shame", Parmenides replied. "But the girl I can understand. Her mind is most infertile. What has she ever questioned? They teach her and she believes."

Of course there are areas where they would still be vulnerable. There seems to be a certain pride, an almost arrogant streak amongst them which usually manifests itself when their authority or loyalty is put into question. And then we have all the flagellantism, with the subjects being taught that pain is a good thing, so someone starting to actually like it is not really out of the question. However, the Sisterhood is an extremely tight-knit group with a strong sense of trust and community, so it stands to reason that its members would effectively police themselves and gain even more strength of their ability to rely upon one another. This is not much different than with the Space Marines, however, unlike the Astartes, the Sisters are not nearly as independent but feel obliged to a greater cause and a chain of command that reaches firmly unto Terra itself. You will remember that during the Heresy, a lot of Marines only followed Horus because their own commanders did, not because they themselves were corrupted - something like this would be unthinkable with the Sisters, as even their overall leader would still feel indebted to something greater than herself, having no aspirations to replace it. Such are the chains of faith - they are as blinding as they are empowering.

Of course, there is always room for exceptions (I still like the idea of Miriael, even if it goes against their original "uncorruptible" trait), but it should be clear why mass corruptions can be regarded as somewhat inappropriate if you go by the majority of their studio material.

Lynata wrote:Personally, I'm of the school that the Sisters' abilities are not "true miracles" (as this would require the existence of true divine magic, which is a concept I strongly object for 40k), but the result of their incredibly strong will, allowing them to not just go one but two extra miles with frightening ease. Their belief in the Emperor is so strong that it simply overrides conventional human limits, making them disregard minor wounds as if they weren't there, acting with utter regard to their own safety and survival if need be, or concentrate on a single task with such determination and mental focus that it enables them to become impromptu snipers. Stuff that can appear as miracles, but in reality isn't. You get my drift.

I think it boils down to the same thing though. Whether their faith in the Emperor makes the miracle or the Emperor makes the miracle as a reward for their faith, they are still miracles generated from their faith. Either way, either Will or Divine Magic keeps them protected from Chaos. Take that Chaos!


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@Lynata: Also, that story is pretty sweet. The main character almost gets in trouble quite a bit for her obsession with that Sergeant, although I suppose it pays off.

The statement that they can do Acts of Faith because their kung fu is stronger than yours (which is essentially what C:WH says) can go either way, as well, whichever interpretation you prefer.

They are distinctly NOT psychic powers, however, and have been stated as not psychic powers numerous times in numerous sources. They cannot be detected by psykers, they cannot be countered by anti-psychic traits, or be effected by psychic powers which effect psykers or other psychic powers; in fact, they seem to be more of the anti-psyker persuasion, given Shield of Faith and the effects of Pure Faith in Dark Heresy.

Mr Morden wrote:As I mentioned before - you could def have a Chaos army that mock the duaghters of the Emperor by using looted armour etc. They would not be turned Sisters but Chaos Warlords would likely enjoy this sort of thing....

"I told you, I'm just wearing it because it makes Sister Claudia mad. Any enjoyment I may get from wearing women's armour is purely secondary."

Melissia wrote:, it's misogynistic,

Whoa whoa, throwing the sexism card? You're off the deep end now. What's inherently misogynistic about making Chaos Sisters?

I won't touch the rest of this argument because it's just downright contentious for the sake of being contentious, but you're going to have to explain this one. Well, more like there is no possible valid explanation for it, so I'm going to amuse myself making you squirm trying to justify it.


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DeffDred wrote:

If you're so unimaginative that the only concept you can think of for a new army is to add "chaos" as a descriptor to a previously existing army then you probably should let someone else come up with your concept.

Because DARK Eldar is way more imaginative.

Not to mention that Dark Eldar only came about in 40K because people kept showing up to Games Day and other GW events with Chaos Eldar armies (using the Eldar rules, obviously). There were no Dark Eldar, at all, anywhere in the fluff, until 3rd Edition. GW just figured they could cash in if they released an army for them.

Veteran Sergeant wrote:What's inherently misogynistic about making Chaos Sisters?

It's like trying to make Chaos Grey Knights.


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Ronin-Sage wrote:Fluff may establish that SoB are essentially universally incorruptible, but there seems to be no logical reason for this.

Then why are Grey Knights incorruptible to?
It may have something to do with faith but I am not sure...


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Ronin-Sage wrote:
Why are you bringing tabletop rules into a discussion about fluff like it's actually relevant? And regardless, let's say these feats are common(they're not) and not effectively miracles...how does this bolster the argument that says Sisters are incorruptible? Putting it that way, you're *hurting* your argument about purity of faith, because it's suggesting that Sisters are faithful because they 'see', when true faith wouldn't rely on such things(or benefits).

1. They use that in the fluff to, read their codex old and new one.
2. They receive protection from the Emperor himself via their faith. Unless Chaos can corrupt him the Sisters are incorruptible.


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Ronin-Sage wrote:I don't believe Sisters have a miracle script running in the background that they don't benefit from miracles at all? My view is that such things are possible, but very rare.

Then why are you arguing here if you believe that?
And they do benefit from the blessing of the Emperor, just ask every for that was defeated by them.
Oh, and Living Saint's to.

Veteran Sergeant wrote:What's inherently misogynistic about making Chaos Sisters?

Because the overwhelming majority of people who want Chaos Sisters only want it because they want to see women fall to worship Slaanesh, IE, to turn women in to sex toys and/or sex-crazed maniacs. Even Games Workshop fell for this in the interest of titillating their readers, as Miriael Sabathiel fell to Slaanesh (Khorne would have made much more sense by far).

IMO the Sisters are not immune to corruption but then I think no mortal is - and that inlcudes Grey Knights as it can corrupt Primarchs, the Slann - anything mortal.

However I feel that they are - with the Grey Knights, one of the most resistant to its blandeshments - being granted special protection from the Emperor himself.

So when does the Chaos Necrons thread start cos the new fluff grants them zero protection especially if Tzeentch offers a Necron Lord the cnahce to regain flesh, cure the Flayer virus etc - they are just as vulnerable now as other race sicne they retianed their personalities and souls (?). Be intersting to see what an obliterator virus would do to a Necron

Mr Morden wrote:IMO the Sisters are not immune to corruption but then I think no mortal is - and that inlcudes Grey Knights as it can corrupt Primarchs, the Slann - anything mortal.

And I think that some things in fluff should never get changed. By your logic even Emperor can be corrupted, so why Chaos Gods didn't try that?

Depending on how you read the Fluff I am not sure the Emperor counts as mortal - and I assume Chaos tried/try.

re changing fluff - do you mean Necrons - I agree for the most part - the new fluff is somehow weaker and less iconic.