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Lynata wrote:Miriael. <3

As much as I oppose the idea of mass-corruption, she would have deserved some more recognition and fan-art, or even her own miniature. Her background is just too cool.

She might be in the Chaos: Renegade book, who knows until it is out.

Bwahahah! ZOMBIE-Nympho-bisexual-BDSM-Space Nuns...
Actually the image I had of undead sisters was something more "banshee-style" Something like this:
http://www.games-workshop.com/gws/catalog/productDetail.jsp?catId=cat440105a&prodId=prod1250031a
but with bolter and power armour... Nurgle zombies are actually not that appealing...

Btw, given that the "Canon" contradicts itself I think everyone should stick to the interpretation that most pleases him...
Personally I think that corruptibility (does this word exist?) of Sisters add'em a little bit of tragedy, that in a Dystopian future should be everywhere (This is the reason for which I would burn all Ward's Fluff about BA and GK... too much heroism and no weaknesses)

Panopticon wrote:They are basically baseline humans, so they can be turned, I can't think of any specific fluff instances where it happened. But in the first Grey Knights novel a sister mentions to Justicar Alaric that "I know no Grey Knight has turned, but some sisters have, it is rare and we don't like talking about it."

Or something to that effect, not the exact quote.

Uh.. they arent excatly baseline humans, they are really fanaticall/crazy filled with love for the emperor.

punkow wrote:Chaos Sisters? The Grotesque-lover in me really wants to see an army of Nympho-Bisexual-BDSM-Space Nuns...

I changed my mind. THIS is why we can't have nice things.

Belief in the Emperor is no protection from Chaos.

More than half the galaxy turned to chaos... And the Emperor was walking around then.

Sisters are mortal. Mortals can turn to chaos.

DeffDred wrote:Belief in the Emperor is no protection from Chaos.

More than half the galaxy turned to chaos... And the Emperor was walking around then.

Sisters are mortal. Mortals can turn to chaos.

Way to skip the last couple pages of arguments in favor of a short and sweet opinion. The contention of those that think that Sisters are protected from Chaos is that they have more than simple belief.

Personally, I think there's a big difference between belief and surety in your faith. The concept of belief often implies doubt. For Sisters of Battle, there is no doubt.

As to your last point, of course they can turn, but they don't.

DeffDred wrote:More than half the galaxy turned to chaos... And the Emperor was walking around then.

Technically, worship of the Emperor only sky-rocketed after He was killed, his "sacrifice" becoming the founding myth of the Temple of the Savious Emperor. There were some who believed him to be a god earlier, yes, but the ones who did fall to Chaos did so out of spite because the Emperor told them he really isn't and that they're suppose to stop this gak.



If you think that "belief in the Emperor is no protection from Chaos", what exactly is your own explanation for the Sisters' special rules?

And ... half the galaxy? I think not.

DeffDred wrote:Sisters are mortal. Mortals can turn to chaos.

I assume this includes the Grey Knights, then.

Brother Coa wrote:

Veteran Sergeant wrote:
I'm not talking about what a Repentia is, or isn't, or their individual susceptibility to Chaos. That's mostly irrelevant. The very fact that Sisters ever feel the need to become a Repentia shows an inherent weakness in Sisters that Chaos can exploit. Like you said, they're only human. If they are becoming Repentia, it is (usually) because they've given into some kind of weakness or desire.

Chaos offering Sister it's powers is like multimilionare offering a newest Ferrari to the Ethiopian child.
You can't offer something to someone, while that someone is not interested in that.

And yet the sister in Daemonifuge fell to Chaos. And yet Miriael Sabathiel fell to Chaos. So we know it's happened. You guys can argue this until you're blue in the face, and I imagine you do. But it doesn't change the facts. You hang onto some single line from a Codex that is fifteen years old and obviously part of the canon that has been long since abandoned. Welcome to Retcon 40K. Most of the stuff we now hold "true" about the Horus Heresy didn't exist back then. Should we argue the Battle of Calth never happened since the Codex: Ultramarines in 1995 said the Ultramarines had been campaigning along the Galactic East and their only action in the Heresy was to smash a large force of Horus's reinforcements? No, that's stupid. The fluff has just changed. It didn't even take that long for it to happen, just a few years. There's no mention of "only one" in Codex: Witch Hunters, because by that time, there were already more. Deal with it. Preferably like an adult, unlike our 15000 post troll over there who is so hilariously convinced she is right that she can't seem to behave herself or construct a complete, rational argument. The Sisters are not inviolable to Chaos, they're just highly resistant.

Others can argue that Khorne is more correct. But I'd still be right in everything I said about Slaanesh being the most likely. You know how we know? Well, in at least three of the known times it has happened, the Sisters fell to Slaanesh. You can claim whatever you want. That GW is sexist, or the stories were written by sexually frustrated basement dwelling neckbeards... whatever. But the stories have been written, their contents embraced by GW as canon, and thus the actions have happened. The argument can be made that Khorne would appeal to their martial prowess and their holy indignance. But if you look at the fluff, it doesn't add up. Yes, Sisters can be subject to the hatred rule. Yes, they can be subject to frenzy. But it's all situational. The Sisters themselves aren't angry all the time. They're just naive and brainwashed enough that they can be easily manipulated by their superiors due to their faith, and get riled up. But after the battle, they aren't angry anymore. Their hatred isn't seething, and all consuming. It's just a tool for the Ecclesiarchy and Inquisition to use. Sure, they might fall to Khorne. I wouldn't argue against it. But Slaanesh is a power that they are vulnerable to all the time. Always waiting in the wings with poisonous words and promises. Obviously from time to time, his promises are alluring and they work. And it doesn't have to be in the silly BDSM, whips and leather version of the Adeptus Sorority fantasy some players seem to have. Maybe he's just offering them the chance to relax, take their shoes off, and watch a Katherine Heigl movie or two while drinking a glass of Cab and eating chocolate ice cream. We don't really know. Certainly the depictions of what Slaanesh converted Miriael with didn't involve nipple clamps and leather straps, but she embraced it. Chaos offers the unknown, that which cannot be had, or that which is desired. But what is certain is that Slaanesh is as much about killing people as Khorne or Nurgle. Just in a different way. The Emperor's Children were warriors just like the World Eaters. Certainly their martial prowess was on par, and yet their corruption was different. Just as the Sisters are warriors, and their paths to corruption will be varied. Their faith is in a God Emperor who isn't actually a god. We know he is not actually a god from the fluff, and the questionably canonicty of their faith powers (thus being derived from nothing (*heresy!*), hence why in the supposedly holy tome of Codex: Sisters of Battle, the Sisters had no Faith Powers, just the vastly more believable Sacred Rites) is a different discussion altogether. What doesn't change is that the Sisters are, in the end, nothing more than single minded religious zealots. And those sorts of people have never been manipulated or perverted to commit atrocities.

If you still don't understand I will help you more

Thanks, but no thanks. But I'm fairly positive, and example has shown, that I know plenty more about Chaos than you do. I've been around this game since before Chaos even had its own Codex. Since before "Blood for the Blood God" became the most overused quote since "For the Emprah!"

So you throw out a Daemonifuge card, a graphic novel that is canonical as C.S. Goto novels are?
Fine, then I will use Bloodtide card were Sister faith is so strong that protected them from Chaos corruption so strong that even Grey Knights couldn't resist.
And you again compare Space Marines here, and we said many times that Marines and Sisters are not the same when it comes to personal feelings.

And I perfectly understand Chaos, it can't corrupt that easily. And you are suggesting here that it can corrupt everything and anyone. It seems that you are the one who don't know about it.

I'm not saying anything other than what has happened. I think most Black Library material is garbage. But it is what is. The fluff is rife with material of questionable quality. But GW has very deliberately eradicated the things it feels don't apply (Squats, lol), and allowed to remain what is acceptable (Daemonifuge).

As far as what you think I'm suggesting about Chaos, you're completely wrong. I understand English isn't your first language, and perhaps the context isn't easy for you to understand across the language barrier. However, what is universal despite language is that your interpretations of the Sisters is solely based on retconned and dated fluff. Chaos very obviously can corrupt anything and everyone except the Emperor. That's irrelevant to how easy or difficult it is.

Veteran Sergeant wrote:I'm not saying anything other than what has happened. I think most Black Library material is garbage. But it is what is. The fluff is rife with material of questionable quality. But GW has very deliberately eradicated the things it feels don't apply (Squats, lol), and allowed to remain what is acceptable (Daemonifuge).

Yeah, a Sister that resurrect when she wants purely by faith and that is considered a greatest hope to fight Chaos since Primarchs. I think that this is proof of how their faith his strong when Sisters even killed and mutilated by Keeper of Secrets still have enough faith to combat the Chaos Gods. And that one didn't fall to Slaanesh - she was controlled by Daemon inside her. That is not falling to Chaos that is being used against your will. That Stern girl seems more like Draigo then ordinary Sister.

As far as what you think I'm suggesting about Chaos, you're completely wrong. I understand English isn't your first language, and perhaps the context isn't easy for you to understand across the language barrier. However, what is universal despite language is that your interpretations of the Sisters is solely based on retconned and dated fluff. Chaos very obviously can corrupt anything and everyone except the Emperor. That's irrelevant to how easy or difficult it is.

What did I say wrong? Chaos work via emotions of all living being ( except Necrons and Tau anyway ). Their primary fuel source now being Humanity and Eldar. But as I understand Chaos can only claim your soul if they slain you or if you succumb to them. That is why they are offering you "gifts", while in fact they are stealing your should from you and using you like a puppet.

All your claims are within questionable fluff material and your main argument is: "Because fluff from codex is 15 years old it is no longer in use.". I can't wait for new SIster codex to be released ( the real one, not this small update ) that will bring light to Sister corruption at last.

Veteran Sergeant wrote:Well, in at least three of the known times it has happened, the Sisters fell to Slaanesh. You can claim whatever you want. That GW is sexist, or the stories were written by sexually frustrated basement dwelling neckbeards... whatever. But the stories have been written, their contents embraced by GW as canon, and thus the actions have happened.

Without wavering from my earlier agreement regarding Slaanesh - GW didn't really embrace anything as canon, because it doesn't exist.

"With Warhammer and Warhammer 40,000, the notion of canon is a fallacy."
- Gav Thorpe

What is true is that the franchise is continually evolving, and that the studio has often adopted select ideas from licensed sources to include into their newest book. In case of Daemonifuge, it became recognized in Andy Hoare's Liber Sororitas article in WD #291 (hinting at the corruption in the Parnis Convent) as well as Ephrael receiving her own miniature with her own unique rules. That doesn't make anything "canon", however. What source any player adds to his perception of the setting depends on nothing more than personal preference. And in this light, you are BOTH right, as - to quote Mr. Thorpe once more - "none of these interpretations is wrong". So there really isn't any sense argueing in about it; both of you need to realize that we have different sources telling us different things, and the nature of how the franchise is run renders this detail too unstable to come to any kind of consensus, possibly apart from "Sisters are hard to corrupt", leaving open just how hard this is or if it ever occurred.

Veteran Sergeant wrote:Certainly the depictions of what Slaanesh converted Miriael with didn't involve nipple clamps and leather straps, but she embraced it.

I realize I'm treading on thin ice here, but I wouldn't rule it out. Sensations are sensations, and there's a reason that kind of stuff "works" in real life.

Veteran Sergeant wrote:The fluff is rife with material of questionable quality. But GW has very deliberately eradicated the things it feels don't apply (Squats, lol), and allowed to remain what is acceptable (Daemonifuge).

"Eradicated" is a word too strong; GW doesn't care a lot what happens over at the Black Library, which is why we have all the contradictions and multilaser marines now. These days, we have novel and RPG authors publicly posting on their blogs or forums that they're going to write whatever the hell they want, after all. And even the Codices contain contradictory information - which we thought of as being retcons, but given that there is no continuity that can be retroactively changed, isn't it just another interpretation as well?

Brother Coa wrote:Yeah, a Sister that resurrect when she wants purely by faith and that is considered a greatest hope to fight Chaos since Primarchs. I think that this is proof of how their faith his strong when Sisters even killed and mutilated by Keeper of Secrets still have enough faith to combat the Chaos Gods. And that one didn't fall to Slaanesh - she was controlled by Daemon inside her. That is not falling to Chaos that is being used against your will. That Stern girl seems more like Draigo then ordinary Sister.

To be fair, Ephrael didn't resurrect by her own will or strength or any kind of faith. As I was looking for the name of that strange creature that spit on her grave, I noticed that some wikis contain a lot of flawed information about her; I can only recommend reading the source itself.

Also, that Ophelian Repentia Mistress (?) in Daemonifuge wasn't the only one who was corrupted - half the convent of Parnis fell to Asteroth, with the other half dying in the coup.

Wow, that's a nice statement.

Lynata wrote: GW doesn't care a lot what happens over at the Black Library, which is why we have all the contradictions and multilaser marines now. These days, we have novel and RPG authors publicly posting on their blogs or forums that they're going to write whatever the hell they want, after all. And even the Codices contain contradictory information - which we thought of as being retcons, but given that there is no continuity that can be retroactively changed, isn't it just another interpretation as well?

This is completely true, and why I've made no definitive statements other than to refute the idea that definitive statements can be made in most cases when it comes to 40K fluff, especially in the smaller details. At this point, until something makes the 15 to 20 year mark (that seems fair, since it bridges back to RT and early 2e) of repetition without contradiction, you can't really call it "true" lol. For example, we know the process for creating Space Marines. That goes back to 1989 and is still reprinted more or less verbatim. But other, less important details, get changed or evolve all the time. Like I've mentioned before, Dark Eldar didn't even exist, in any form or mention, until 3rd Edition, and then only because of the sheer number of Chaos Eldar that showed up as GD entrants or armies. At least the Tau were introduced in a manner than explained their absence from earlier fluff. That's how much the game has changed since C:SoB. If a person wants to make a definitive statement based on dated fluff, they had better make sure it meshes with more recent incarnations of the game. Otherwise it's just an opinion. And certainly not worthy of the vitriol some people are spewing.

Though, not to defend Goto but instead to be fair, Multilaser Marines actually used to exist back in Rogue Trader. It's kinda sad that the authors don't care about significant points of canon. There's so much room for creativity, and really not all that many things hammered out as "truth" that the more egregious breaches are signs of laziness on the part of the authors rather than the constraints of the setting.

That's certainly true, though regarding that comment on author lazyness I think multilasers were a lot smaller back then. With all the stuff I've seen from licensed publications, I've just developed a very "hit and miss" kind of feeling regarding them - to me, it seems obvious that at least some writers really just didn't bother to do their research. >_>

Though, to be fair, some of the details are hidden pretty well. Especially concerning the Sororitas fluff. It sure wasn't easy to track down all the little bits I have right now, and I still feel as if I haven't yet catched everything. Kind of frustrating, though at times I actually had fun hunting down all the snippets.

Regarding in-studio continuity, the designer's notes for the Witchhunter Codex stated that everything GW ever wrote about the Sisters, even clearly including the "ancient" Rogue Trader fluff, was still in effect as they wrote the 3E 'dex and that they took great care to make any new fluff fit into everything that came before. Contradictions such as the Bloodtide and the Parnis corruption only showed up later. Well, or in all the licensed stuff, of course; I think Daemonifuge and Dark Millennium actually predate C:WH?

Also, apologies if the earlier post seemed somewhat lecturing; from my perspective it just looked as if the two of you were both making definite claims. I guess my own posts sound like that often enough, which is why I regularly add a little disclaimer by now. It can at times be difficult to convey the exact meaning in an internet debate as we're missing out on the visual expressions that hint at how something was meant, not to mention all the different languages around here.

Veteran Sergeant wrote:And yet the sister in Daemonifuge fell to Chaos.

Being mind controlled by a greater daemon is not the same as falling to chaos.

It is certainly possible for Sisters to turn to the worship to Chaos, noone's denying that, the point is that more than any other group save for Grey Knights, they don't

DeffDred wrote:Belief in the Emperor is no protection from Chaos.

It is for Sisters, considering their beliefs help them (either through fanaticism or miraculous intervention) accomplish the impossible.

Melissia wrote:

Veteran Sergeant wrote:And yet the sister in Daemonifuge fell to Chaos.

Being mind controlled by a greater daemon is not the same as falling to chaos.

It is certainly possible for Sisters to turn to the worship to Chaos, noone's denying that, the point is that more than any other group save for Grey Knights, they don't

DeffDred wrote:Belief in the Emperor is no protection from Chaos.

It is for Sisters, considering their beliefs help them (either through fanaticism or miraculous intervention) accomplish the impossible.

What if one of the Sisters is a Psyker and she doesn't know it yet. She gets visions of Warp Daemons but she does not want to be seen as a heretic so she does not tell the other sisters. She eventually gives in and joins Chaos.

rockerbikie wrote:What if one of the Sisters is a Psyker and she doesn't know it yet.

FFG's RPG actually touched upon this idea, but personally I maintain it's groxgak as it (as well as their "civilian" armaments there) goes against studio background regarding their obsession with purity, which would naturally include the very same genetic screenings they perform on various Imperial factions to root out hidden psykers and other mutants. Also, Shield of Faith used to neutralize psyker powers, hostile as well as benevolent.
I'm a bit bummed that its effect was changed in the last WD Minidex, though without further studio material on that subject I don't really think this has an effect on their background yet.

Ephrael Stern is as close as to a Sororitas psyker as you'll ever* get. Back when her miniature still had her own unique rules, she didn't even benefit from the SoF.

[edit]

(*: I probably shouldn't say "ever" anymore, other stuff has changed as well. )

rockerbikie wrote:What if one of the Sisters is a Psyker and she doesn't know it yet. She gets visions of Warp Daemons but she does not want to be seen as a heretic so she does not tell the other sisters. She eventually gives in and joins Chaos.

She'd be found out in the process of her Schola Progenium training or in the normal course of checking for corruption.

And besides, it's heretical to hide it -- it is NOT heretical to tell your canoness and be sent off to the inquisition to be sanctioned.

Lynata: The Sisters with said powers didn't turn to Chaos, rather, they were sent to the Inquisition or killed themselves / offered themselves to be killed. And weirdly enough it was a very specific power which allowed them to see the truth in someone's soul and find corruption, to find the taint of the psyker, so it still fit their theme to an extent.

I guess there is the possibility that they could become Psykers through contact with those they are cleansing or be latent - but they would confess their sin almost certainly as long as they recongised it for what is was and did not think it was a gift from the Emperor (much more unlikely)

If they did think it was a gift from the Emperor they'd have the Inquisition test it and see if it was a psychic power, like they do with all such potential living saints.

Agreed

The other aspect I find interesting is the possibility of Pariahs and how they interact with the Sisterhood - especially if the Emperor grants the faith powers from the Warp.

I had thought that even if a Pariah joined the Sisterhood it would be hard to intergrate her with the others. But then I guess the Sisters of Silence (if they still exisit) would be snapping any up that turn (and are recognised) up in Schola? I guess Pariahs can work together without the same issues that arise if they work with less gifted (or cursed) mortals

More likely than not the Pariah would be found out in the Schola. There's no record of the Pariah developing their traits late in life.

Maybe - I guess the Inquisiton would keep an eye out for them - however fluff seems to suggest they are seldom recongnised for what they are? Just seen as unsettling and different but little tangible to give away their powers / nature.

SoB would never "turn". To do so they would only lower their station. As it stands SoB are the epitome of absolute evil to ever exist in the 40K universe. Why would they give THAT up just for a little blood for a blood god?

Skalk Bloodaxe wrote:SoB would never "turn". To do so they would only lower their station. As it stands SoB are the epitome of absolute evil to ever exist in the 40K universe. Why would they give THAT up just for a little blood for a blood god?

Nice try, keep moving.

Mr Morden wrote:Maybe - I guess the Inquisiton would keep an eye out for them - however fluff seems to suggest they are seldom recongnised for what they are? Just seen as unsettling and different but little tangible to give away their powers / nature.

That's amongst the standard population.

The Schola Progenium is anything but standard. Students sent there are under intense scrutiny their entire lives.

Melissia wrote:

rockerbikie wrote:What if one of the Sisters is a Psyker and she doesn't know it yet. She gets visions of Warp Daemons but she does not want to be seen as a heretic so she does not tell the other sisters. She eventually gives in and joins Chaos.

She'd be found out in the process of her Schola Progenium training or in the normal course of checking for corruption.

And besides, it's heretical to hide it -- it is NOT heretical to tell your canoness and be sent off to the inquisition to be sanctioned.

Lynata: The Sisters with said powers didn't turn to Chaos, rather, they were sent to the Inquisition or killed themselves / offered themselves to be killed. And weirdly enough it was a very specific power which allowed them to see the truth in someone's soul and find corruption, to find the taint of the psyker, so it still fit their theme to an extent.

What if a Sister of Battle who is a psyker gets kinapped by Slannesh Cultist and gets tortured until she joins them.

rockerbikie wrote:
What if a Sister of Battle who is a psyker gets kinapped by Slannesh Cultist and gets tortured until she joins them.

And what happens if every Sister of Battle in the galaxy becomes a Living Saint?

Then they'd be in the position of the GK at the moment, then like the Squats the next.