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Hmmph. The only SM armour that needs to be different to the current stuff is Dornian Heresy Damocles armour.

ObliviousBlueCaboose wrote:I do find it funny how the space marine cant see over his shoulder pads. It like he saying theres no point in looking anyway but straight ahead.

As for clone troppers, get that rubbish out of here. They fight using ranks. And cant hit the broadside of a barn. They only won due to the droids clustering up in ranks as well. It was like watching two neapolionic armies fight... With machineguns.

Yeah, it's a daft idea. Like a 17th Century pirate fighting against a 14th century French knight. They did this in a series called "History's Deadliest Warriors." The knight was a tank, and the armour saved him a lot of the time. But some of the items in the Pirate's arsenal are, in fact, armour piercing. And when they did the simulations, they found that the pirate, in fact won the fight.

Clone Troopers were for the Clone Wars. After that, there were regular people signing up, and the quality of the troops went right down. The Clones were also disgusted at the reduction in quality. So, Stormtroopers are naff, and we are dealing with Clone Troopers. Whilst they have weaker armour, they also have a lot more agility and flexibility in it. How quickly can a SM move with the power armour? Super fast? Okay...

So Power Armour makes you invincible.

Unless you disable the Power Armour.

Think about it: that armour needs a power source to keep going. It needs to function right, or else the Marine inside isn't going very far. And if the visual system is disabled, then he can't see. A Clone Trooper can quickly rip off his helmet when it is damaged. The SM can't do that. Period. Here is why...

THE SHOULDER PADS STOP HIM FROM MOVING HIS ARMS THAT HIGH.

This is the problem the Knight had: Yes, he could protect himself from most attacks, because he is a walking tank. But his movements were much more restricted. He had a more limited field of vision. I would assume that the Vision system for the SM armour would work along the same lines. Can the guy turn his head well in that helmet? And back to the shoulder pads... they are of a design that would hit against the chest armour at about 75 degrees, by my reckoning. Which means he lacks the movement to take of his helmet, or if he can, it'll take him time. Which is all that is needed for someone to deal a killing blow.

Manoeuvrability is a deadly weapon. Just ask the DE.

Also, People said that the Clones were made from a Mandalorian. Yep, one that Dooku had quietly put through the wringer, making sure that there was a very high chance Jango Fett would die. He survived, and thrived in the scenario. He never knew he was being tested, however. And Mandalorians are tough SOBs. They are a tribe, if you will, living on the planet Mandalore. They are bound by ideology, not genetics. Boba Fetts own Granddaughter is quarter Kiffar, a non human species. And Boba Fett, whilst not a Clone Trooper, managed to fight his way out of the Sarlacc, killing it in the process, kick Vader's behinney (Not killing him, simply because he didn't think it was worth having the Empire's wrath on him for all eternity), fed intelligence to the New Republic -and eventually - fought directly with them in the Yuuzhan Vong War, and trained Han Solo's daughter to kill the Sith Lord that was threatening the galaxy. And she did it, too.

Therefore, nature created one utter badass with Jango Fett, and his DNA isn't to be taken lightly.

Also, the Clone Troopers had freedom of thought as well. Large numbers questioned Order 66, and some disobeyed it outright. Which is right, when you look at the wording of Order 66. It was a Jedi Kill command sneaked in a long list of protocols. Others did obey without question, true. But they were able to assess orders, and question them.

If people still want to go and say there is no contest, consider this: Trooper armour is nothing like proper Mandalorian armour. Because it is made from Mandalorian Iron, which would happily deflect Lasgun fire, and most - if not all - weapons fire.

Also, all you need to do with a Space Marine is field an injury that'll cause internal bleeding. It'll slow him down long enough to start tearing up the Power Armour, which is the true objective. Cacked up Power armour is like tying an anchor to your neck. If one leg is disabled, you're not going to be running, or walking, are you?

This is all before we consider the ballistic capabilities of Clone Trooper firepower, and SM Ballistic firepower. Do they match up? I doubt it.

All this feeds into my feel that the 25th Anniversary armour is far, far better than the current SM design. It shows greater flexibility, mobility, with the same durability of current SM armour.

If you've never done Medieval re-enactments, you'll never understand the trade-offs and hindrances armour has. It isn't all benefits.



Sardaukar


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Yep, another army that'd wipe out the SM is the one from the Dune series...

You do realise that you don't need to lift your arms very high at all to remove a helmet? All you need to do is have your upper arms at right angles to your body, elbows pointing in front of you, upper arms pointing in to grab the helmet and lift. It wouldn't even affect the angle the shoulder pads are attached at.

Power armour is also designed so that the wearer's speed isn't actually affected by wearing it, hence the Marines are faster than normal humans despite the armour.

Regarding ballistics, Clone troopers have lasers, Marines have self-propelled explosives firing from a machine gun as standard weaponry.

Durza wrote:You do realise that you don't need to lift your arms very high at all to remove a helmet? All you need to do is have your upper arms at right angles to your body, elbows pointing in front of you, upper arms pointing in to grab the helmet and lift. It wouldn't even affect the angle the shoulder pads are attached at.

Power armour is also designed so that the wearer's speed isn't actually affected by wearing it, hence the Marines are faster than normal humans despite the armour.

Regarding ballistics, Clone troopers have lasers, Marines have self-propelled explosives firing from a machine gun as standard weaponry.

Right angle=90 Degrees.
Shoulder pad Mobility= 75 degrees.

Oh, and 135 degrees is the maximum a person can do, based on my guesswork, based on the assumption the person has full mobility in their arms.

Clone Troopers have Blasters, Ion Blasters, heavy... wait. Ion Blasters can disrupt electrical components. SM Power Armour has electrical components, to make them super fast and super strong. So, if you used Ion Cannons, you could disable entire squads of Power Armoured SM, and then take them apart at your leisure.

Which is in my assessment in the first place. The armour is a massive weakness if it is disrupted. Don't aim to kill the SM, aim to disrupt and disable his power armour.

As stated, there are advantages and disadvantages to armour.

Blasters are lasers but basically plasma weapons. I would love to see star wars meet 40k though would be and interesting deal.

Stonelessword wrote:Blasters are lasers but basically plasma weapons. I would love to see star wars meet 40k though would be and interesting deal.

Agreed. When you consider that one thing ignored so far is tactics, it'd get really interesting to see what would happen.

I love how people are rooting for SM to win, when they've clearly got no idea as to the topic. With all combat, there are trade-offs and advantages/disadvantages. If you've done proper re-enactment stuff, you'll appreciate restrictions armour has and everything.

Hunterindarkness wrote:The armor is not totally awful..but yeah those shoulder pads have to go. I would love to see it just once without those damned shoulder pads.

This one has an interesting vibe

I like the shoulder pads, but that would make good amour for an alternative unit like a new unit

I'm willing to bet that Space Marine armor, if it were real, would be build just like medieval armor. A pauldron (shoulder armor) floats above your shoulder and doesn't get in the way of 75% of more of arm movements. Actually, very much like my avatar.

They aren't like knee-pads, which are tight over the joint. There's a free-moving armored arm under there, encased in it's own armor (specifically, the part that goes around the bicep is called a "rerebrace", as opposed to the "vambrace" that is over the forearm). If you jump up, as you come down a pauldron will flop up some and then come back down on it's own with a clang when you hit the ground.

In medieval platemail, the pauldron is hung from a strap at the top (either to the neck or torso armor) and usually loosely attached to the rerebrace with segmented "lames" that go over the outside of the upper arm like a lobster-tail (they're so no weapon can slide up under the outside edge of the pauldron), and then a simple strap that goes around the arm (but it's not tight around the arm). All this really does is to keep the pauldron and lames from flopping free forwards and backwards too much when you swing your arm.

In Marine armor, I'll bet that it would look just like when you are putting a plastic figure together, and there is a smaller shoulder and arm underneath the pauldron that it 'cups' over. It's just rather than being attached all over the shoulder like you would glue a figure, it's just attached at the top and probably hangs free under it's own weight.

When you raise your arm in a set of pauldrons, they just slide down along the outside of the bicep as the arm comes up. They barely move in towards the head until your arms are quite far up past horizontal to your body.

AegisGrimm wrote:I'm willing to bet that Space Marine armor, if it were real, would be build just like medieval armor. A pauldron (shoulder armor) floats above your shoulder and doesn't get in the way of 75% of more of arm movements. Actually, very much like my avatar.

They aren't like knee-pads, which are tight over the joint. There's a free-moving armored arm under there, encased in it's own armor (specifically, the part that goes around the bicep is called a "rerebrace", as opposed to the "vambrace" that is over the forearm). If you jump up, as you come down a pauldron will flop up some and then come back down on it's own with a clang when you hit the ground.

In medieval platemail, the pauldron is hung from a strap at the top (either to the neck or torso armor) and usually loosely attached to the rerebrace with segmented "lames" that go over the outside of the upper arm like a lobster-tail (they're so no weapon can slide up under the outside edge of the pauldron), and then a simple strap that goes around the arm (but it's not tight around the arm). All this really does is to keep the pauldron and lames from flopping free forwards and backwards too much when you swing your arm.

In Marine armor, I'll bet that it would look just like when you are putting a plastic figure together, and there is a smaller shoulder and arm underneath the pauldron that it 'cups' over. It's just rather than being attached all over the shoulder like you would glue a figure, it's just attached at the top and probably hangs free under it's own weight.

When you raise your arm in a set of pauldrons, they just slide down along the outside of the bicep as the arm comes up. They barely move in towards the head until your arms are quite far up past horizontal to your body.

One problem with your argument is that you are fielding the assumption that SM shoulder pads can be compared to pauldrons from medieval armour. I doubt any soldier from that time period would consider wearing armour designed to go on the set of Dynasty... Not to mention that they also kill the side view something chronic.




Automatically Appended Next Post:

AegisGrimm wrote:If the pauldrons are attached at the top of the shoulder joint, like medieval armor, it's impossible to "chop your head off" by lifting your arms, unless somehow you are a mutant and your shoulder joints are too close to your head.

I fight in medieval plate-mail, and I cannot get my pauldrons to hit my own head even if I am doing pull-ups or basketball jump-shots in my armor, unless I tilt my head wayyy over to the side, or I use the set that has sword-catcher edges that stick up like on a Deathwatch/Grey Knight/Chaos marine's pad. Now THOSE are stupidly designed and would cut your head off.

At worst, Space Marines' large rounded pads would mean that because their helmet is also large, they could possibly bonk into the pauldron at about the ear-level. And because they are attached at the top of the shoulders/arms, anything other that lifting the arms straight out from the sides causes them to rotate back like on the apothecary/standard bearer. If anything, like on the actual models, you then have to worry about the pad connecting with the backpack vent.

Didn't dee this at first... looks like we have the answer to the debate...

Cameron Baum wrote:
Also, People said that the Clones were made from a Mandalorian. Yep, one that Dooku had quietly put through the wringer, making sure that there was a very high chance Jango Fett would die. He survived, and thrived in the scenario. He never knew he was being tested, however. And Mandalorians are tough SOBs. They are a tribe, if you will, living on the planet Mandalore. They are bound by ideology, not genetics. Boba Fetts own Granddaughter is quarter Kiffar, a non human species. And Boba Fett, whilst not a Clone Trooper, managed to fight his way out of the Sarlacc, killing it in the process, kick Vader's behinney (Not killing him, simply because he didn't think it was worth having the Empire's wrath on him for all eternity), fed intelligence to the New Republic -and eventually - fought directly with them in the Yuuzhan Vong War, and trained Han Solo's daughter to kill the Sith Lord that was threatening the galaxy. And she did it, too.

Therefore, nature created one utter badass with Jango Fett, and his DNA isn't to be taken lightly.

Also, the Clone Troopers had freedom of thought as well. Large numbers questioned Order 66, and some disobeyed it outright. Which is right, when you look at the wording of Order 66. It was a Jedi Kill command sneaked in a long list of protocols. Others did obey without question, true. But they were able to assess orders, and question them.

If people still want to go and say there is no contest, consider this: Trooper armour is nothing like proper Mandalorian armour. Because it is made from Mandalorian Iron, which would happily deflect Lasgun fire, and most - if not all - weapons fire.

Also, all you need to do with a Space Marine is field an injury that'll cause internal bleeding. It'll slow him down long enough to start tearing up the Power Armour, which is the true objective. Cacked up Power armour is like tying an anchor to your neck. If one leg is disabled, you're not going to be running, or walking, are you?

This is all before we consider the ballistic capabilities of Clone Trooper firepower, and SM Ballistic firepower. Do they match up? I doubt it.

All this feeds into my feel that the 25th Anniversary armour is far, far better than the current SM design. It shows greater flexibility, mobility, with the same durability of current SM armour.

If you've never done Medieval re-enactments, you'll never understand the trade-offs and hindrances armour has. It isn't all benefits.



Sardaukar


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Yep, another army that'd wipe out the SM is the one from the Dune series...

Yes i made the point about mandalorians. They are bound by ideology and not genetics, that I agree with. But that's not to say that there aren't people out in 40k that have the same sort of ideologies and skills. There are plenty of warrior peoples across the galaxy, cadians, valhallans.... etc... SM are recruited from worlds like these, deathworlds, hive gangs, the SM recruit the toughest they can find. Salamanders recruit from a death world that goes through major geological upheavals, SW recruit from a frozen death world that has wolves the size of a man, you fight or you die. So after they've selected the best from these death worlds, they go a step further and enhance them with genetics and implants.

Boba fett is a bad ass that's true, but there are plenty of people in 40k that aren't genetically enhanced that have done things just as bad. Just look at all the IG BL novels, there's tonnes of that stuff.

SM have freedom of thought as well, sure plenty of them go through the whole brain washing business but then how do you explain all the renegades that have left the Imperium? They choose to leave, something someone without freewill wouldn't have been able to. Plus all of the other little occurences where marines disobey their superiors to finish missions and so on and so forth.

Trooper armour stops lasguns yes.... but how bout rocket propelled grenades flying at you at high rates? How about plasma shots? Flamers? Or droids? Clone Troopers die by the numbers, I fail to see how their armour could stop all weapon's fire.

You do know that SM's have amazing healing rates right? Larraman cells basically go to the sites of bleeding and clot it up pretty quickly forming a layer of skin/skab... And how would you give a SM internal bleeding? Punch him in the gut? Explosives? Things that SM armour is designed to protect against?

I'm also not blind to the cons of SM armour however, I know it's slow, I know there are probably some places on his back he can't scratch, but trying to compare clone trooper armour to a SM's is just no comparison. Sure if there were two people of the same skill in both suits of armour, I would be inclined to try testing that, but other than that... It just doesn't really seem like a fair comparison.

blazinpsycho&typhooni wrote:
Yes i made the point about mandalorians. They are bound by ideology and not genetics, that I agree with. But that's not to say that there aren't people out in 40k that have the same sort of ideologies and skills. There are plenty of warrior peoples across the galaxy, cadians, valhallans.... etc... SM are recruited from worlds like these, deathworlds, hive gangs, the SM recruit the toughest they can find. Salamanders recruit from a death world that goes through major geological upheavals, SW recruit from a frozen death world that has wolves the size of a man, you fight or you die. So after they've selected the best from these death worlds, they go a step further and enhance them with genetics and implants.

Boba fett is a bad ass that's true, but there are plenty of people in 40k that aren't genetically enhanced that have done things just as bad. Just look at all the IG BL novels, there's tonnes of that stuff.

SM have freedom of thought as well, sure plenty of them go through the whole brain washing business but then how do you explain all the renegades that have left the Imperium? They choose to leave, something someone without freewill wouldn't have been able to. Plus all of the other little occurences where marines disobey their superiors to finish missions and so on and so forth.

Trooper armour stops lasguns yes.... but how bout rocket propelled grenades flying at you at high rates? How about plasma shots? Flamers? Or droids? Clone Troopers die by the numbers, I fail to see how their armour could stop all weapon's fire.

You do know that SM's have amazing healing rates right? Larraman cells basically go to the sites of bleeding and clot it up pretty quickly forming a layer of skin/skab... And how would you give a SM internal bleeding? Punch him in the gut? Explosives? Things that SM armour is designed to protect against?

I'm also not blind to the cons of SM armour however, I know it's slow, I know there are probably some places on his back he can't scratch, but trying to compare clone trooper armour to a SM's is just no comparison. Sure if there were two people of the same skill in both suits of armour, I would be inclined to try testing that, but other than that... It just doesn't really seem like a fair comparison.

Again, it is the reference to the Knight against the Pirate. The Pirate won. And pirates had no armour.

Also, we have to assume that Clone Trooper armour is an evolution from Republic Trooper armour, which can take grenades, and all sorts. Just look at the trailers for "The Old Republic," and you'll see it.

As for droid troops... Well, they are powered by mechanical and electrical systems, so should be vulnerable to Ion Blasters. Why they were not used en masse is a mystery to me.

As for the SM, and all of their magic marvels... I love it. It makes me smile. Being bigger, they would have to work harder to deal with their higher centre of gravity, not to mention work hard on speed, agility, And manoeuvrability, to compensate for their big, heavy frame. Not to mention the fact they are in a tank-suit, and this slows them down further. Not to mention the massive metabolism these guys will have, to support and maintain such a robust frame. Gracile builds are less energy - and resource - demanding than Robust frames. Which means less need to eat, and all of that. And given the stupid shoulder pads that stop the helmet from coming off, they would need a food tube or something to keep them fuelled. And lets not go into waste... I'd hate to think amount of poo these guys would produce from all the eating they have to do. It'd be like elephants...

I think you should watch some episodes of "History's Deadliest Warriors," because it'd be an eye opener for you. It was for me... Apache warriors have no armour, and they are scary, scary folks. You have them teaching US troops to this day techniques. Armour isn't everything.

In an awful lot of the fluff, particularly the older stuff, SM shoulder pads are described as being 'auto-reactive', that is they can automatically adjust their position depending on where the SM is looking. Power Armour is just a suit of armour wirh a few motors in it, it's supposed to be advanced stuff, so adjusting parts of itself to suit the position of the wearers head or arms should be well within it's remit.

This stuff is an intelligent, protective, life-supporting and enhancing item of technological wonder, not just a few bits of carefully beaten tin and some leather straps.

farmersboy wrote:In an awful lot of the fluff, particularly the older stuff, SM shoulder pads are described as being 'auto-reactive', that is they can automatically adjust their position depending on where the SM is looking. Power Armour is just a suit of armour wirh a few motors in it, it's supposed to be advanced stuff, so adjusting parts of itself to suit the position of the wearers head or arms should be well within it's remit.

This stuff is an intelligent, protective, life-supporting and enhancing item of technological wonder, not just a few bits of carefully beaten tin and some leather straps.

Can it survive EMP?

Considering that PA functions quite fine in areas of intense radiation I would say it definitly has EMP resistance.


and all the arguments about space marines being unable to rip their helmets off quickly are absurd. In BL novels they rip their helmets off quite quickly when they get disabled.

and the Pauldrons are moterized to move, if the pauldron would constrict the marines movements it will automatically move to a place its not. Remember that the Blace Carapace literally fuses the marine with his armor, he can control it as if it were his own body.


Clone Troopers may be well trained, however they are still just piddly humans in armor that is only designed to stop energy weapons(and rather poorly at that as troopers take direct hits on their chest plates and it does practically nothing to stop it) SW fluff has anything that does kinetic damage pop right through. Even Jedi can't block solid projectiles very well in the fluff.

Clone Troopers might be on the same level as Stormtroopers for equipment and Cadians for training. Space Marines will slaughter these guys.

Yes, the space marines arn't invincible but the Clone Troopers would need to bring anti-tank weapons to bear to have even a chance of taking them down quickly.

How in the name of the Emperor did this become 40k vs SW? Anyhow On the shoulder pads, yeah guys I find them to freaking big, you can keep comparing them to knights armor, but a 14th century knights armor' shoulders were not the size of shields and did not cover him from neck to elbow. Even a reduction of about 30% would do worlds of good.

RAVEN 97 wrote:

Hunterindarkness wrote:The armor is not totally awful..but yeah those shoulder pads have to go. I would love to see it just once without those damned shoulder pads.

This one has an interesting vibe

I like the shoulder pads, but that would make good amour for an alternative unit like a new unit

I myself Like the shoulder pads as well, the things has some flaws, its to busy for 40k for one and why in Gods name is the top of his head exposed? Over all I find it a good base for an armor type.

Grey Templar wrote:Considering that PA functions quite fine in areas of intense radiation I would say it definitly has EMP resistance.


and all the arguments about space marines being unable to rip their helmets off quickly are absurd. In BL novels they rip their helmets off quite quickly when they get disabled.

and the Pauldrons are moterized to move, if the pauldron would constrict the marines movements it will automatically move to a place its not. Remember that the Blace Carapace literally fuses the marine with his armor, he can control it as if it were his own body.


Clone Troopers may be well trained, however they are still just piddly humans in armor that is only designed to stop energy weapons(and rather poorly at that as troopers take direct hits on their chest plates and it does practically nothing to stop it) SW fluff has anything that does kinetic damage pop right through. Even Jedi can't block solid projectiles very well in the fluff.

Clone Troopers might be on the same level as Stormtroopers for equipment and Cadians for training. Space Marines will slaughter these guys.

Yes, the space marines arn't invincible but the Clone Troopers would need to bring anti-tank weapons to bear to have even a chance of taking them down quickly.

This is from Wikipedia:

An electromagnetic pulse (sometimes abbreviated EMP) is a burst of electromagnetic radiation. The abrupt pulse of electromagnetic radiation usually results from certain types of high energy explosions, especially a nuclear explosion, or from a suddenly fluctuating magnetic field. The resulting rapidly-changing electric fields and magnetic fields may couple with electrical/electronic systems to produce damaging current and voltage surges.

In military terminology, a nuclear warhead detonated hundreds of kilometers above the Earth's surface is known as a high-altitude electromagnetic pulse (HEMP) device. Effects of a HEMP device depend on a very large number of factors, including the altitude of the detonation, energy yield, gamma ray output, interactions with the Earth's magnetic field, and electromagnetic shielding of targets.

The electromagnetic shielding part is the true thing... are they designed to take it?

You want anti-tank? Okay, what about...

TX-130 Saber-class fighter tank
All Terrain Tactical Enforcer (AT-TE)
All Terrain Attack Pod (AT-AP)
Low Altitude Assault Transport/infantry

That should cover that one... If you're wanting Anti-tank, then that allows for the whole GAR to be used. I'd like to see SM with Power Armour survive being trampled on by a several tonne heavily armoured walker...

Also, Clone Trooper blasters can do a rapid fire, and and you'd have the air filled with blaster bolts. Probably from a DC-15A blaster rifle, which packs a nasty wallop.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Hunterindarkness wrote:
How in the name of the Emperor did this become 40k vs SW? Anyhow On the shoulder pads, yeah guys I find them to freaking big, you can keep comparing them to knights armor, but a 14th century knights armor' shoulders were not the size of shields and did not cover him from neck to elbow. Even a reduction of about 30% would do worlds of good.

RAVEN 97 wrote:

Hunterindarkness wrote:The armor is not totally awful..but yeah those shoulder pads have to go. I would love to see it just once without those damned shoulder pads.

This one has an interesting vibe

[

Spoiler:

img]http://i235.photobucket.com/albums/ee132/StygianEmperor/UnionArmyArmor.jpg[/img]

I like the shoulder pads, but that would make good amour for an alternative unit like a new unit

I myself Like the shoulder pads as well, the things has some flaws, its to busy for 40k for one and why in Gods name is the top of his head exposed? Over all I find it a good base for an armor type.

I know... How did this happen... Because I made a mention about Clone Troopers, people Said outright SM were better, I'm arguing otherwise. It's getting a little surreal, but there we go... SM lovers out there love their shoulder pads, and their unstoppable death machines, not realising that once they started throwing down the gauntlet for Anti Tank, it gets to be no contest. Particularly when you've got a half dozen Republic Gunships in the air.

I think the armour you're talking about would serve better forTau than SM, to be fair. Has a better ring with them.

An AT-AP has fairly thin armor. Bolters will be able to snipe the driver without too much difficulty or will just be able to damage the vehicle itself.

the AT-TE is really slow. It isn't like a 40k walker that can step on enemies deliberatly. A Space Marine would use stealth to sneak in close and then run up and lob a few Krak grenades into its weak spots, or he would just rip a hatch open and climb inside. its one turret is manned by an exposed gunner and it has no other weapons capable of covering its flanks.

Marines bring anti-tank weapons themselves so it isn't like an enemy tank is going to phase them. I'd like to see the reactions of Clones when a Meltagun vaporizes their TX-130. Its so small that the entire vehicle would get slagged, not just crippled. the same goes for the AT-TE.


the AT-TE is more of a long ranged artillery platform designed to engage enemy vehicles at a distance and function as a mobile command base. and Anti-tank weapons still need to be used against the target. because Marines use cover the anti-tank weapons will have some difficulty in being brought to bear.

Thats why Marines are so effective. The armor of a tank combined with the mobility of an infantry soldier, who just happens to be a genetically modified super-soldier.

We also can't have this discussion without having the IG involved. The Space Marines will be conducting lightining raids on the republic's supply lines and eliminating their commanders while the IG engages the Republics military from the front.

LRBTs have tougher armor then a TX-130 and sport more weapons viable against a wide range of targets. Not to mention the IG attacks with thousands of tanks and millions of Guardsmen at a time.

The Republic has nothing equivilant to Titans and the Imperial Navy will prevent the Republic from having air-superiority.



anyway, way off topic.

Cameron Baum wrote:

I know... How did this happen... Because I made a mention about Clone Troopers, people Said outright SM were better, I'm arguing otherwise. It's getting a little surreal, but there we go... SM lovers out there love their shoulder pads, and their unstoppable death machines, not realising that once they started throwing down the gauntlet for Anti Tank, it gets to be no contest. Particularly when you've got a half dozen Republic Gunships in the air.

I think the armour you're talking about would serve better forTau than SM, to be fair. Has a better ring with them.

I never said that Armor should replace the SM, I said I found it interesting. It is a bit to busy for the SM look, You would have to smooth it down. It was mostly shown for the Shoulders really, they looks effective without being overly huge. It has a profile, not unlike that of a SM, after all.

Edit: thank you

Grey Templar wrote:An AT-AP has fairly thin armor. Bolters will be able to snipe the driver without too much difficulty or will just be able to damage the vehicle itself.

the AT-TE is really slow. It isn't like a 40k walker that can step on enemies deliberatly. A Space Marine would use stealth to sneak in close and then run up and lob a few Krak grenades into its weak spots, or he would just rip a hatch open and climb inside. its one turret is manned by an exposed gunner and it has no other weapons capable of covering its flanks.

Marines bring anti-tank weapons themselves so it isn't like an enemy tank is going to phase them. I'd like to see the reactions of Clones when a Meltagun vaporizes their TX-130. Its so small that the entire vehicle would get slagged, not just crippled. the same goes for the AT-TE.


the AT-TE is more of a long ranged artillery platform designed to engage enemy vehicles at a distance and function as a mobile command base. and Anti-tank weapons still need to be used against the target. because Marines use cover the anti-tank weapons will have some difficulty in being brought to bear.

Thats why Marines are so effective. The armor of a tank combined with the mobility of an infantry soldier, who just happens to be a genetically modified super-soldier.

We also can't have this discussion without having the IG involved. The Space Marines will be conducting lightining raids on the republic's supply lines and eliminating their commanders while the IG engages the Republics military from the front.

LRBTs have tougher armor then a TX-130 and sport more weapons viable against a wide range of targets. Not to mention the IG attacks with thousands of tanks and millions of Guardsmen at a time.

The Republic has nothing equivilant to Titans and the Imperial Navy will prevent the Republic from having air-superiority.



anyway, way off topic.

Yeah... which is why DE Splinter weaponry can own Marines. There's an amusing thread on it I'm following.

The commanders were Jedi. I think they'd feel in the Force if a SM was about to sneak up and attack them. Force Push and Lightsabre. I'd also love to see an SM get the drop on Mace Windu, or Yoda, for that matter. And you never commented on the Low Altitude Assault Transport/infantry, suggesting a lack of answer for it. Since they had Y-Wings available, just launch Proton Torpedoes at a distance at the site. See how the IG can cope then. Mind you, there is also the Venator Star Destroyer able to be in Atmosphere. Planetary assault would be my straight off tactic after talking to you. Flatten the planet, and then move in with troops.

Dresden the battlefield, then move in on survivors. Not to mention develop acid canisters to eat the metal of the armour the SM are wearing... Acid grenades. Like to see the Miracle armour cope with that...




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Hunterindarkness wrote:

Cameron Baum wrote:

I know... How did this happen... Because I made a mention about Clone Troopers, people Said outright SM were better, I'm arguing otherwise. It's getting a little surreal, but there we go... SM lovers out there love their shoulder pads, and their unstoppable death machines, not realising that once they started throwing down the gauntlet for Anti Tank, it gets to be no contest. Particularly when you've got a half dozen Republic Gunships in the air.

I think the armour you're talking about would serve better forTau than SM, to be fair. Has a better ring with them.

I never said that Armor should replace the SM, I said I found it interesting. It is a bit to busy for the SM look, You would have to smooth it down. It was mostly shown for the Shoulders really, they looks effective without being overly huge. It has a profile, not unlike that of a SM, after all.

I agree. The shoulder pads were a lot better. And smoothed down... Yeah, I'll go with that.

I always found alot of the apparent 'awkwardness' of space marine armour isn't so much the pauldrons but how bulky it looks because the plates and such are always drawn thick. I mean hell the pauldrons alone in som eartwork look at least a good 3-4 inches thick, and even the leg and shin armor can usually be 2-3 inches thick subjectively. Thin it down some and it might not look so awkward.

I dont know if its just the artwork or appearance, but Forge World depictions of Marines in some cases (like the Raptors in Taros) always looked 'slimmer' to me.

Connor MacLeod wrote:I always found alot of the apparent 'awkwardness' of space marine armour isn't so much the pauldrons but how bulky it looks because the plates and such are always drawn thick. I mean hell the pauldrons alone in som eartwork look at least a good 3-4 inches thick, and even the leg and shin armor can usually be 2-3 inches thick subjectively. Thin it down some and it might not look so awkward.

I dont know if its just the artwork or appearance, but Forge World depictions of Marines in some cases (like the Raptors in Taros) always looked 'slimmer' to me.

Agreed. The whole thing looks ungainly and poorly thought out. People should know my preferences by now, so I'm not repeating it.

The thing is those shoulder pads on the drawing are good enough to cove the shoulder....that is all. The marine shoulder pads cover far more. They provide additional protection to the neck, head, and body. In a kneeling pose a marine can basically hide behind the left shoulder pad and shin guard, effectively doubling his armor. Its the whole reason older marks had the reinforcement studs only on the left side.

You issues with the shoulders are purely aesthetic as the design makes sense based on fluff and partially in reality. If you look at the typical body armor worn today it only cover the top of the head and chest, and abdomen, really just the vitals. Great it someone is shooting at you and you are facing them. Now turn your body into a standard two armed shooting pose.....You are not really protected at all. Now I have seen where the military is testing ..........Giant shoulder pads that protect the flanks. The theory is that normally one of your shoulders is facing the enemy.

I love how the drawing has so much armor and yet the top of the head is completely exposed. I mean what kind of guy runs around in full armor without head protection, must be some kind of idiot, i mean you'd never see a space marine......well.....wait....ummm. Nevermind

Cameron Baum wrote:Again, it is the reference to the Knight against the Pirate. The Pirate won. And pirates had no armour.

Oh really? Sir Francis Drake, whom the Spanish called a pirate, in armour;



I don't know why people would ever reference Deadliest Warrior. It's so idiotic it's hilarious to watch. I mean, seriously, the GIGN-9 team don't spot the SWAT team when they're silhouetted against the sky above them? And they group up into a tight group behind a chain-link fence making themselves a huge target? Or the Samurai vs. Vikingr where the Vikingr doesn't even use his shield to a) protect himself from the arrows or b) in conjunction with his other weapons (which is what it's there for). Or Joan of Arc giving the most ridiculous 'killing blow' to William of Normandy, a hit where the flat slapped against his back and would have done nothing. Or the Mongolians vs. Musketeers where the triple barrelled cannon gets 3 kills? Seriously? Those things, as tested a few years ago by a museum in America, showed they couldn't hit anything at spitting distance. The Celt one was just pure comedy. Fortunately I've never watched the pirate one but I know it will be terrible. Those things are horrible distortions of the truth and should never be even considered as tertiary evidence or even historical evidence of any kind.

/rant over.

The thing about power armours thickness is that visually it enhances the bulky, walking bunker look of Astartes. It also underlines the extra protection ceramite power armour grants. Stormtroopers & Kasrkin wear carapace armour formed from ceramite or armaplas plates which on a human look big and bulky but they have to be large and thick to give necessary protection. Marine armour is enough tougher so it makes sense that it will be a lot thicker. As Astartes have the strength to carry that thick ceramite armour as though it were a second skin, it's additional thickness & weight makes sense. A full suit of ceramite power armour weighs in at over 200lbs (lightest was Mk IV at 190lbs - source: FFG Deathwatch rulebook). That's just a bit more than I weigh for a full Mk IV suit. So if a Marine can wander round quite happily wearing that as if it were a cotton t-shirt then the thicker = the greater protection = the better.

Well the greatest enemy of the space marines would be wooden walk ways.

"Where did the heretics go"?

"They crossed that chasm using those wooden planks."

"GO after them"

"Johnson tried sir, the boards wont support 600 pounds"

"Cheeky Bastards"

Could you imagine the comedy of marines walking through ruined buildings.

"I don't know sir, those stairs look rickety"

Better yet quicksand......."bloop"

Andrew1975 wrote:Well the greatest enemy of the space marines would be wooden walk ways.

"Where did the heretics go"?

"They crossed that chasm using wooden planks."

"GO after them"

"Johnson tried sir, the boards wont support 600 pounds"

"Cheeky Bastards"

Just send Assault Marines

Sparks_Havelock wrote:

Cameron Baum wrote:Again, it is the reference to the Knight against the Pirate. The Pirate won. And pirates had no armour.

Oh really? Sir Francis Drake, whom the Spanish called a pirate, in armour;



I don't know why people would ever reference Deadliest Warrior. It's so idiotic it's hilarious to watch. I mean, seriously, the GIGN-9 team don't spot the SWAT team when they're silhouetted against the sky above them? And they group up into a tight group behind a chain-link fence making themselves a huge target? Or the Samurai vs. Vikingr where the Vikingr doesn't even use his shield to a) protect himself from the arrows or b) in conjunction with his other weapons (which is what it's there for). Or Joan of Arc giving the most ridiculous 'killing blow' to William of Normandy, a hit where the flat slapped against his back and would have done nothing. Or the Mongolians vs. Musketeers where the triple barrelled cannon gets 3 kills? Seriously? Those things, as tested a few years ago by a museum in America, showed they couldn't hit anything at spitting distance. The Celt one was just pure comedy. Fortunately I've never watched the pirate one but I know it will be terrible. Those things are horrible distortions of the truth and should never be even considered as tertiary evidence or even historical evidence of any kind.

/rant over.

The thing about power armours thickness is that visually it enhances the bulky, walking bunker look of Astartes. It also underlines the extra protection ceramite power armour grants. Stormtroopers & Kasrkin wear carapace armour formed from ceramite or armaplas plates which on a human look big and bulky but they have to be large and thick to give necessary protection. Marine armour is enough tougher so it makes sense that it will be a lot thicker. As Astartes have the strength to carry that thick ceramite armour as though it were a second skin, it's additional thickness & weight makes sense. A full suit of ceramite power armour weighs in at over 200lbs (lightest was Mk IV at 190lbs - source: FFG Deathwatch rulebook). That's just a bit more than I weigh for a full Mk IV suit. So if a Marine can wander round quite happily wearing that as if it were a cotton t-shirt then the thicker = the greater protection = the better.

The end fight is a drama, concocted from the computer simulation results. It isn't the basis of the show, it is the testing of the weapons. Seeing a katana slice though sides of animal is a distortion of truth? Looking at how they got their empirical evidence, I feel it is solid. Else I wouldn't be using it. And the samurai helmet showed an elegant protective design, by being curved in such a way to deflect blows. As for American museums... let's not go there. If the weapon was that useless, it would have been abandoned or superceeded. But, if it'll make you happy, I'll change the comparison to Kabalite Warrior and SM. Same agility, Splinter weaponry, and has light armour to boot. No, I forgot... the SM would be slow moving, and the Kabalite is Eldar, so moves faster anyway.

As for the walking bunker idea... build a bomb proof bunker, someone will build a better bomb. A walking tank is, ultimately laughable. But then, I've long since stopped laughing at the sheer metabolic requirements an SM would have. Oh dear, I've started again... The idea is completely ridiculous to me, sorry. 7 feet guys are not going to be able to be effective on the field, no matter how much genetic manipulation they've had, or how much armour they are wearing. The bigger they are, the easier the target to hit... And I'd be likely to be hitting them happily with caustic chemicals, to melt the armour. There's no such thing as an undefeatable enemy, and the SM have weaknesses to exploit.




Automatically Appended Next Post:

Andrew1975 wrote:Well the greatest enemy of the space marines would be wooden walk ways.

"Where did the heretics go"?

"They crossed that chasm using those wooden planks."

"GO after them"

"Johnson tried sir, the boards wont support 600 pounds"

"Cheeky Bastards"

Could you imagine the comedy of marines walking through ruined buildings.

"I don't know sir, those stairs look rickety"

If super armour is so great, why isn't it still in use today? Why don't we have modern soldiers head to toe in the 21st Century equivalent to SM armour?

Because armour is heavy, and clunky. No matter how many servos it has.

Better yet quicksand......."bloop"

Cameron Baum wrote:Seeing a katana slice though sides of animal is a distortion of truth? Looking at how they got their empirical evidence, I feel it is solid. Else I wouldn't be using it. And the samurai helmet showed an elegant protective design, by being curved in such a way to deflect blows.

Katana's are not bad for cutting through flesh. Because of the gentle curve it places the full force of the strike in to the part of the blade that makes contact. Good start. Bad areas are that the blades are very thick, they were made by average smiths as a side-arm for the peasantry - a cheap weapon which was carried as a side-arm but not a serious weapon. Because of the thickness of the blade, and its considered lack of evolution, compared to European blades, it's actually a really naff weapon. Admittedly it's a lump of metal you can hit people with - that's the whole point. When they have armour then it becomes a whole different kettle of fish. If you look at the edges of a German Longsword circa c14/c15, the edges are rather slender which would allow it to slice through maille with a good stroke whereas a period katana would just bounce off (leaving a lot of bruising but unbroken armour). There are a couple of cracking videos about that display how brilliant the longsword is yet Japan's superbly handled sale of it's culture to the West has given people the impression that the katana is amazing.

As for American museums... let's not go there.

Why not? They took an actual period weapon & tested it, checked to see how good/bad it was and the results were that it was awful.

As for the walking bunker idea... build a bomb proof bunker, someone will build a better bomb. A walking tank is, ultimately laughable. But then, I've long since stopped laughing at the sheer metabolic requirements an SM would have. Oh dear, I've started again... The idea is completely ridiculous to me, sorry. 7 feet guys are not going to be able to be effective on the field, no matter how much genetic manipulation they've had, or how much armour they are wearing. The bigger they are, the easier the target to hit... And I'd be likely to be hitting them happily with caustic chemicals, to melt the armour. There's no such thing as an undefeatable enemy, and the SM have weaknesses to exploit.

But within the 40k universe not many handheld weapons -can- penetrate that walking bunker. It's one of the reason why Astartes have used power armour since the Mk I 'Thunder'. The protective qualities are just too good to not use. As for their height & bulk, yes they're a bit easier to hit at close range but their armour protects them. That enormous height, reach & strength advantage makes them as deadly as some of the races out there - they're as fast as Eldar & as good with ranged & melee weapons, they think & react quicker than regular humans, have excellent hand-to-eye co-ordination, are ambidextrous, can handle even the heaviest portable weapons without much issue. They also have no fear.

Space Marines aren't really meant to be a part of stand-up battles - they drop in near vital targets and carve a path to their objective, complete it and withdraw. It's the Guard who are there to fight the pitched battles whilst the Marines do their thing.

And everyone has their weaknesses; Eldar have inferior armour & are only as strong & tough as regular Guardsmen, Orks can't hit for toffee and are not as strong as Astartes, Tau are horrendous in melee but not bad at shooting their super-laser type weapons - of course everyone has a weakness that can be exploited, but as Tom Holt once wrote, it's best to attack an enemy through their strength - strengths are taken for granted, weaknesses are carefully guarded.

If super armour is so great, why isn't it still in use today? Why don't we have modern soldiers head to toe in the 21st Century equivalent to SM armour?

Because armour is heavy, and clunky. No matter how many servos it has.

Because regular humans aren't 7'+ tall superhumans who can crush a mans head in his hand as though it were a fresh hens egg and that's before they put their armour on. Armour is making it's come back, as it goes, with police forces & militaries around the world testing out new technologies & designs to increase protection. For example a British group of scientists are working on a gel that hardens to a consistancy stronger than concrete when struck - a 5.54mm bullet isn't going to go through it. Armour went out the window because the technology at the time couldn't sustain the credibility of wearing armour - musketeers in c17 were far more manouverable & moved quicker than the more cumbersome armour clad pike blocks. Now technology is moving towards being able to provide decent defence that's light & comfortable enough to move around in I doubt it will be long before soldiers will be wearing far more protective armour.

Cameron Baum wrote:THE SHOULDER PADS STOP HIM FROM MOVING HIS ARMS THAT HIGH.

To paraphrase a Star Wars character, since you seem so high on that garbage, ruined universe from Sell-out hack-"writer"/"director" George Lucas (lol):

I find your lack of human physiology and kinesiology disturbing.

Going to set up a test for you. Tuck your elbows to your body. Now, curl your forearms to form a 35 degree (or so) angle. Rotate your arms straight upward. Notice where your hands end up placed. Then tell me how the shoulderpads would prevent a Marine from taking his helmet off. You do realize that the shoulder pads are attached to the Space Marine's arms, and not to his chest, and will move with the rotation of the arms. There are certain range of motion limitations a Space Marine would encounter with his arms due to the shoulder pads. Removing his helmet would not be one of them.

The idea that medieval armour makes you slow is wrong and probably derived from tournament armour, which was indeed quite heavy.
Most suits of medieval plate weight about 20-30kg ( not more than a modern soldier has to carry ), distributed among the wearer's entire body.
A knight in such armour was both very well protected ( there is a reason why swords, with the exception of very thin and narrow ones, became less and less useful ) and still mobile enough to run, jump, mount his horse or grapple. The enclosed helmet limited the field of vision but given the vulnerability of the head in medieval warfare this was an acceptable tradeoff.

I see no reason why powerarmour shouldn't offer similar advantages, especialy with the advanced technologies used.