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cuda1179 wrote: The first 4 MCU films were Iron Man, Hulk, Iron Man 2, and Thor. Two of those movies are panned as complete trash, Iron man was goodish (although somewhat trashed in this very thread), and Thor was passable, kind-of.
While the events of the two Hulk films are (as far as I know) canon, I don't think nearly anyone considers them to be MCU films. The first one predates the MCU by 5 years, and the second one is a Universal Pictures movie. The first movie under the MCU banner was Iron Man in 2008.
lord_blackfang wrote: Respect to the guy who subscribed just to post a massive ASCII dong in the chat and immediately get banned.
Flinty wrote: The benefit of slate is that its.actually a.rock with rock like properties. The downside is that it's a rock
creeping-deth87 wrote: Yeah the reverence for Wonder Woman is truly mystifying. It was notable only for being the first DC production that wasn't absolute garbage. It's a solid 7, maybe 8, at the very best. Captain Marvel beats it by more than a fair margin.
In all fairness, professional critics disagree with you. On rotten tomatoes the professional critic review of Wonder Woman is 93%, compared to Captain Marvel's 79%. That's mirrored in the fan reviews with 88% and 53%.
And to be fair, Wonder Woman was the 4th DCU film. The first 4 MCU films were Iron Man, Hulk, Iron Man 2, and Thor. Two of those movies are panned as complete trash, Iron man was goodish (although somewhat trashed in this very thread), and Thor was passable, kind-of.
Black Panther has 97%, Infinity War has an 83%. I don't think critics are spot on by any means. If Captain Marvel had come out first it would have been more of a "go women" event and gotten more of a pass on reviews.
The only way we can ever solve anything is to look in the mirror and find no enemy
cuda1179 wrote: The first 4 MCU films were Iron Man, Hulk, Iron Man 2, and Thor. Two of those movies are panned as complete trash, Iron man was goodish (although somewhat trashed in this very thread), and Thor was passable, kind-of.
While the events of the two Hulk films are (as far as I know) canon, I don't think nearly anyone considers them to be MCU films. The first one predates the MCU by 5 years, and the second one is a Universal Pictures movie. The first movie under the MCU banner was Iron Man in 2008.
There is only one Hulk movie that is part of the MCU. It's the one with Thunderbolt Ross, Nick Fury, and Tony Stark in it.
These are my opinions. This is how I feel. Others may feel differently. This needs to be stated for some reason.
creeping-deth87 wrote: Yeah the reverence for Wonder Woman is truly mystifying. It was notable only for being the first DC production that wasn't absolute garbage. It's a solid 7, maybe 8, at the very best. Captain Marvel beats it by more than a fair margin.
In all fairness, professional critics disagree with you. On rotten tomatoes the professional critic review of Wonder Woman is 93%, compared to Captain Marvel's 79%. That's mirrored in the fan reviews with 88% and 53%.
And to be fair, Wonder Woman was the 4th DCU film. The first 4 MCU films were Iron Man, Hulk, Iron Man 2, and Thor. Two of those movies are panned as complete trash, Iron man was goodish (although somewhat trashed in this very thread), and Thor was passable, kind-of.
You know what else professional film critics reviewed very well? Last Jedi.
Yeah.
Audience score comparison for these films is also of dubious value with all the controversy and political bs surrounding Captain Marvel. There has definitely been an attempt to torpedo this movie before it even came out.
creeping-deth87 wrote: Yeah the reverence for Wonder Woman is truly mystifying. It was notable only for being the first DC production that wasn't absolute garbage. It's a solid 7, maybe 8, at the very best. Captain Marvel beats it by more than a fair margin.
In all fairness, professional critics disagree with you. On rotten tomatoes the professional critic review of Wonder Woman is 93%, compared to Captain Marvel's 79%. That's mirrored in the fan reviews with 88% and 53%.
And to be fair, Wonder Woman was the 4th DCU film. The first 4 MCU films were Iron Man, Hulk, Iron Man 2, and Thor. Two of those movies are panned as complete trash, Iron man was goodish (although somewhat trashed in this very thread), and Thor was passable, kind-of.
You know what else professional film critics reviewed very well? Last Jedi.
Yeah.
Audience score comparison for these films is also of dubious value with all the controversy and political bs surrounding Captain Marvel. There has definitely been an attempt to torpedo this movie before it even came out.
I can believe that, but again, the character is not well known outside of comics circles.
AduroT wrote: Incidentally it’s what, the second MCU origin story where the main villain isn’t just an evil version of the main hero? Thor is the other.
Which is a nice touch. Marvel has a lot of parallelism in their stories (comics, movies, whatever), so avoiding that is always a nice touch. Not to say Carol doesn't have her fair share of not-Ms. Marvels. Just wait 'til they do Moonstone!
Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote: I know Samuel L Jackson has aged brilliantly. But I didn’t even notice it.
Throughout his career Sam Jackson has morphed into various looking people, so him looking younger isn't all that weird as he can often change his appearance quite a bit.
Peregrine wrote: Did you also complain that Iron Man or Captain America got a single movie and then went straight to the front in Avengers?
Iron Man got 2 movies.
Ouze wrote: While the events of the two Hulk films are (as far as I know) canon, I don't think nearly anyone considers them to be MCU films. The first one predates the MCU by 5 years, and the second one is a Universal Pictures movie. The first movie under the MCU banner was Iron Man in 2008.
Ang Lee's Hulk is not part of the MCU.
The Incredible Hulk is, and it came out after Iron Man, and Tony Stark was in it, and Thaddeus 'Thunderbolt' Ross even came back for Civil War and Infinity War.
Overall, as said, a cracking film. Plot is good, action is spiffy. They do a bang up job of explaining not so much Captain Marvel, but Carol Danvers, the woman behind the powers. And in a complete surprise to no-one, it’s not ‘evil feminist propaganda’.
Lots of Easter eggs for those who’ve followed the films, including cameos from a certain villain-to-be.
Comedy was good, in particular
Spoiler:
Nick Fury going squishy over a Cat. Sure some might see it as being silly, and out of character. But as someone who is the same over Dogs, I could relate to it.
Oh, and Goose doing his thing cracked me up, and the rest of the audience I shared the screening with. So much so, the laughter drowned out some of the quips that followed!
Only thing I think of as a drawback is the music. Whilst all classics, and very much my music from that era, it felt a bit more DCMU than the dab hand we saw in GotG. But that’s a relatively minor quibble.
If nothing else, it serves as a reminder that the MCU hasn’t disappeared up its own bum, getting ever more convoluted. It slots in nicely, and as ever you don’t really need to have seen any of the others to make sense of what’s going on, or who is who. 21 films in, that remains quite the achievement.
Ranking it? Hard to say, as I’ve never really ranked the others. It impressed me more than Dr Strange, but didn’t have quite the zip of GotG.
In summary? It ain’t perfect, but it’s still a worthy watch, and I can’t really imagine anyone feeling shortchanged or ripped off,
Automatically Appended Next Post: Oh, and villains?
Spoiler:
Talos was great, even though he’s not the real villain. Yon-Rogg? Just didn’t quite land for me. Supreme Intelliegence was superb
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2019/03/10 09:19:49
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AduroT wrote: Incidentally it’s what, the second MCU origin story where the main villain isn’t just an evil version of the main hero? Thor is the other.
This is something which went wrong big way in Iron Man movies. They just could not come up with a storyline or villain which had nothing to do with the damn suit. Always suit suit suit more Ironman suits, hey lets give everyone their own suits. Yawn.
Remember why he became Iron Man in the first place. Him trying to ensure that sort of tech remains only in ‘safe’ hands makes sense.
Arguably, of all The Avengers, he’s the easiest for villains to replicate, if they can just get their hands on a sample of his wares. And for that, he’s arguably the biggest threat to world stability. If he blobs it, that’s a lot of soldiers becoming an incredible threat.
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Remember why he became Iron Man in the first place. Him trying to ensure that sort of tech remains only in ‘safe’ hands makes sense.
It's good plotline for ONE movie. When you can't come up with anything else, it devalues the character. It's big reason why the Iron Man franchise went down the drain.
It was hilarious how Stark claimed in the beginning of IM2 that others can't replicate the suit, even though it was already done in the previous movie, and then he was proven wrong almost immediately. Later he himself started handing them out like candy. Sense of marvel (lol) disappears when everybody's grandmom has an Iron Man suit.
At the risk of derailing...Warmonger had the same power source, and access to the original suit, which helped immensely.
Whiplash had access to the ARC schematics, which again helped. All the other examples in IM2 were deliberately laughable.
And in IM3, it’s a very different villain (if not actually a good one. Guy Pearce will always be Mike From Neighbours to me!)
It’s also fairly classic allegory. Sure, they’ve got these super powers, but what’s stopping them becoming Benevolent Dictators? The mirror enemy shows it’s the hero, not their powers, that’s important.
It’s not the most original trope, sure. But then, it’s working well for Marvel, and if it ain’t broke, don’t fix it.
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.. that's the Mallrats script he's reading right ?
The poor man really has a stake in the country. The rich man hasn't; he can go away to New Guinea in a yacht. The poor have sometimes objected to being governed badly; the rich have always objected to being governed at all
We love our superheroes because they refuse to give up on us. We can analyze them out of existence, kill them, ban them, mock them, and still they return, patiently reminding us of who we are and what we wish we could be.
"the play's the thing wherein I'll catch the conscience of the king,
The poor man really has a stake in the country. The rich man hasn't; he can go away to New Guinea in a yacht. The poor have sometimes objected to being governed badly; the rich have always objected to being governed at all
We love our superheroes because they refuse to give up on us. We can analyze them out of existence, kill them, ban them, mock them, and still they return, patiently reminding us of who we are and what we wish we could be.
"the play's the thing wherein I'll catch the conscience of the king,
It’s not the most original trope, sure. But then, it’s working well for Marvel, and if it ain’t broke, don’t fix it.
But it didn't work, that's the point! IM2 and 3 were panned and quite rightly.
If you read the IM comics, is the every storyline somehow tied to armour? No. Most of the time IM is simply a superhero whose suit is an enabler of his abilities, not focus of the story.
It’s not the most original trope, sure. But then, it’s working well for Marvel, and if it ain’t broke, don’t fix it.
But it didn't work, that's the point! IM2 and 3 were panned and quite rightly.
If you read the IM comics, is the every storyline somehow tied to armour? No. Most of the time IM is simply a superhero whose suit is an enabler of his abilities, not focus of the story.
Marvel Phase 1 and most of 2 were basically run by Ike Pearlmutter who is notoriously cheap and a bad dude. When Ironman worked he more or less demanded that Kevin follow the IM format over and over. It wasn't until Kevin went to Disney and was like, let me answer to you instead of him and the Marvel Council or they are going to sink this ship that the second half of phase 2 and phase 3 got way better.
These are my opinions. This is how I feel. Others may feel differently. This needs to be stated for some reason.
Ahtman wrote: Do you need a hug? It seems like you might need a hug. I'm sorry that not treating all characters the same has hurt you in some way as that isn't my intention. Nor was my being very brief in my initial thoughts meant to cause you some consternation. It was an ok movie and there really isn't much I that can be done about that. Perhaps it is just Marvel burn out at this point where we have seen this so many times that it just feels less engaging.
If it's a case of being tired of the genre that's fine, but your original complaint sounded like the same old double standard people have for female characters where it's all "they should be careful about making her more than a secondary character" and "they need to justify her powers more" and such while male characters with the exact same development path are just fine and even praised for how awesome they are.
I know there was a lot of goofiness projected at the film and generally tried to avoid it so didn't know that was a complaint being leveled at it. Thinking about it a bit more maybe a better way to put it would be that she seemed better when interacting with others so perhaps she'll shine even more in a group like the Avengers. I would still recommend people to see it as it is worth it even if it isn't everyone's favorite MCU movie. Someone above said they didn't like Ant-Man or Dr. Strange that much but really liked this whereas I felt the opposite. Admittedly a lot what I liked about Dr. Strange was the awesome 3D and trippy visuals they were able to pull off.
Spoiler:
Talking to someone else (in real life even) it could also be that she seemed boring sometimes because initially she didn't really have a personality as she didn't have a memory and was being a puppet of the Kree.
I also did like how the Skrulls were changed and portrayed in this. I imagine some hardcore comic fans may not like it but I think they did a good job with making the MCU Skrulls different than the comic book counterparts.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2019/03/10 20:30:55
Amidst the mists and coldest frosts he thrusts his fists against the posts and still insists he sees the ghosts.
Ahtman wrote: Do you need a hug? It seems like you might need a hug. I'm sorry that not treating all characters the same has hurt you in some way as that isn't my intention. Nor was my being very brief in my initial thoughts meant to cause you some consternation. It was an ok movie and there really isn't much I that can be done about that. Perhaps it is just Marvel burn out at this point where we have seen this so many times that it just feels less engaging.
If it's a case of being tired of the genre that's fine, but your original complaint sounded like the same old double standard people have for female characters where it's all "they should be careful about making her more than a secondary character" and "they need to justify her powers more" and such while male characters with the exact same development path are just fine and even praised for how awesome they are.
I know there was a lot of goofiness projected at the film and generally tried to avoid it so didn't know that was a complaint being leveled at it. Thinking about it a bit more maybe a better way to put it would be that she seemed better when interacting with others so perhaps she'll shine even more in a group like the Avengers. I would still recommend people to see it as it is worth it even if it isn't everyone's favorite MCU movie. Someone above said they didn't like Ant-Man or Dr. Strange that much but really liked this whereas I felt the opposite. Admittedly a lot what I liked about Dr. Strange was the awesome 3D and trippy visuals they were able to pull off.
Spoiler:
Talking to someone else (in real life even) it could also be that she seemed boring sometimes because initially she didn't really have a personality as she didn't have a memory and was being a puppet of the Kree.
I also did like how the Skrulls were changed and portrayed in this. I imagine some hardcore comic fans may not like it but I think they did a good job with making the MCU Skrulls different than the comic book counterparts.
Spoiler:
The Skrulls have always been more than just generic bad guys in the comics. In fact, the Kree Skrull war starts with the Warrior race of the Kree attacking the Skrulls who were more or less space faring merchants that used their shape shifting to help facilitate trade. It was the Kree Skrull war that turned them into a militaristic soldier race on any level. Then, within their society, they have good civilian or peace loving members. Militaristic monsters that genetically engineer super weapon (The Super Skrulls) and religious fanatics (those that think Earth is their new home and did Secret Invasion.
The Captain Marvel movie left all that open to happen. There are thousands of Skrulls spread all over the galaxy. THESE Skrulls were refugees, but OTHER Skrull camps can have gone in any of those other directions still.
These are my opinions. This is how I feel. Others may feel differently. This needs to be stated for some reason.
I’m actually genuinely interested to see how the other Avengers cope with her on the team.
In terms of morality, she seems closest to Cap. But there’s still a significant age gap - and how much passed between his Deep Freeze and Carol’s ascendce?
In terms of power, it’s pretty much Thor and Vision.
Personality? Arguably closer to Tony Stark (in so far as neither has particularly taken ‘no, you can’t’ as an answer, and have instead done their own thing.
Much as I really enjoyed Captain Marvel, that for me is the real litmus test, as it is with anyone joining The Avengers.
If she’s just a power hammer to Thanos’ crotch - entertaining of course, but a narrative cop out (which is nothing to do with gender, in case anyone on either side was wondering). But if her powers don’t play a clear role, what’s the point?
I for one am confident enough that the MCU knows exactly what they’re doing, and we’ll get a great result. But then, I’ve also been waiting for that bubble to burst since 0.000000001 seconds before I saw Guardians of the Galaxy at a press screening - and every film since.
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Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote: I’m actually genuinely interested to see how the other Avengers cope with her on the team.
In terms of morality, she seems closest to Cap. But there’s still a significant age gap - and how much passed between his Deep Freeze and Carol’s ascendce?
In terms of power, it’s pretty much Thor and Vision.
Personality? Arguably closer to Tony Stark (in so far as neither has particularly taken ‘no, you can’t’ as an answer, and have instead done their own thing.
Much as I really enjoyed Captain Marvel, that for me is the real litmus test, as it is with anyone joining The Avengers.
If she’s just a power hammer to Thanos’ crotch - entertaining of course, but a narrative cop out (which is nothing to do with gender, in case anyone on either side was wondering). But if her powers don’t play a clear role, what’s the point?
I for one am confident enough that the MCU knows exactly what they’re doing, and we’ll get a great result. But then, I’ve also been waiting for that bubble to burst since 0.000000001 seconds before I saw Guardians of the Galaxy at a press screening - and every film since.
It's interesting.
Spoiler:
The source of her power arguably doesn't put her on Vision and Thor's level. But closer to a fully realized Scarlet Witch without any of her personal limitations.
That's CLOSE to Thor and Vision, but NOT Thor or Vision. While her training both on Earth and with the Kree gives her a blunt instrument methodology to go to blows with Thanos, Thanos with all the gems should still be out classing all of them. And arguably, if Thanos has all the Gems and is aware of Thor coming it's not going to be a beam of rainbow energy he shoots at Thor next time. It will be turning him to cubes, or a slinky, or glass or chucking a moon at him. I wonder how much Thanos we will even get in End Game.
These are my opinions. This is how I feel. Others may feel differently. This needs to be stated for some reason.
So it’s interesting how they did Skrulls in this vs the Skulls comic that premiered the same week. In the movie they’re very sympathetic. In the comic it’s a family who’s infiltrating earth to find and destroy a project that’s apparently designed to help detect them so the Skrulls can then invade and conquer the planet to be their new home world.
As far as power levels, Carol got hers from that engine that was channeling power from the tesseract, which is actually an Infinity Stone. So yeah, she’s indirectly Infinity Stone powered. That gives her some dang high potential as they feel fit.
I don’t think a hammer will be needed for Thanos though. I don’t think they’ll have to fight him at all. I think he’ll already be dead from Thor’s ax blow at the end of the last one.
I really am looking forward to seeing her interact with the others in Endgame. Larson definitely sold herself as the character in a vacuum, and in what I feel is definitely one of the more character-led Marvel outings, but I think the way they've pitched her personality should fill an interesting niche in the team. She's got the wit to match Stark, a hint of Cap's idealism and stoicism, but is also potentially far more outwardly emotional than either of them, which could be a help or a hindrance depending on the circumstance.
After the events of CM, I can't see her doing particularly well at taking orders either, so I'd not be surprised if for a good chunk of Endgame she's a bit of a loose cannon. Is she going to have the patience for Cap and Stark to sit around debating ethics (something I'm pretty sure is coming is a confrontation between them about what to do after they beat Thanos. I can totally see Stark wanting to use the Gauntlet to try and make the world his version of better, while Cap will insist on putting it all back how it was), or will she just go straight for the direct approach?
All that said, it's entirely possible she'll be a totally different personality in Endgame. 20 years, and presumably an extended dustup with the Kree during that time (I imagine any sequel will cover this, rather than jumping to the present),could have changed her a great deal.
As for power levels, I think one of the most significant things is
Spoiler:
the fact her power comes from one of the Infinity Stones. IW establishes that someone with that kind of power can go as far as destroying the Stone it came from, and with Wanda out of play, she's currently the only character with that potential. So she's the ultimate failsafe against the Gauntlet being used again, and maybe one of the only ones who could directly challenge its effects.
I don't see that she's necessarily more powerful than Thor or Vision or Strange, but the source of that power will matter, I think.
A few random thoughts on CM itself.
Spoiler:
Big standout for me was the Skrull twist, and Ben Mendolshon at Talos was a big part of that. He continues Marvel's run of strong antagonists recently, for as long as he's in that role, but also manages to be very sympathetic by the end.
Jude Law as Yohn-Rogg less so, but this was a film that wasn't about its villains like, say, Black Panther or IW, so he didn't need to be anything more than someone to punch hard in the face at the end. I'd have liked to have seen more of Ronan, I wonder if he'll show up again in a sequel.
I enjoyed the small, tight cast a lot. Especially Carol's scenes with Monica, those could have been so cheesy but there was a genuine sense of fun to stuff like recolouring the suit. Fury was great as ever, and the eyepatch-baiting was a great running gag, paid off brilliantly with his final scene with Coulson.
The humour in this really surprised me, the trailers had me convinced it was going to be a lot more po-faced. But it all landed, the running jokes especially, and unlike Ragnarok it knew when to let a scene end on a more serious note.
My only real criticism is that it could have stood to be maybe 10 minutes longer, just to flesh out some of the side plots a bit more, but I did really enjoy the smaller scale of it, juxtaposed with a traditionally cosmic-level hero. And again, it really did strike me as the closest Marvel have come to a full-on character piece, punctuated with some cool action scenes, rather than the typical inverse of that.
All in all, a really solid entry, and I can't wait to see more of the character. Between her, T'Challa, Strange and Spidey, they've got a strong (if somewhat unconventional) future iteration of the main lineup coming together now.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2019/03/10 23:29:49
Rotten Tomatoes is posting that it made $153mm over the weekend. Thats a lot of hamberders!
-"Wait a minute.....who is that Frazz is talking to in the gallery? Hmmm something is going on here.....Oh.... it seems there is some dispute over video taping of some sort......Frazz is really upset now..........wait a minute......whats he go there.......is it? Can it be?....Frazz has just unleashed his hidden weiner dog from his mini bag, while quoting shakespeares "Let slip the dogs the war!!" GG
-"Don't mind Frazzled. He's just Dakka's crazy old dude locked in the attic. He's harmless. Mostly."
-TBone the Magnificent 1999-2014, Long Live the King!
