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1hadhq wrote:I am not considering to suggest to hide until they die of age as a tactic, but one thing is common: these Hive ships are old. Not new.
So maybe it takes a lot of time to replace them? If so, opponnents with potent weapons and superior space drives could focus on the Hive Ships and
play this hit and run game until the nids lack production capacities to keep their major strength: respawning .
Fleet based reproduction is mobile, but not without drawbacks. Planet based production may be secured deeply underneath and safe from interruption.
A ship has full 3D attack vectors against it.

It's already been done, in the fluff. The Tyranids are pretty clever when it comes to space based combat too (like luring a Tau fleet trying to take down the remnants of a hive fleet away from their supporting ships then destroying them). But there's fluff describing fleets that have been destroyed down to the last few hive ships, then coming back after attacking a few undefended colonies and getting the biomatter to regrow the fleet. Hell, Behemoth is still around, and the Ultramarines all but destroyed that fleet. Regrowing their fleet isn't as hard as you're making it sound - certainly quicker than it takes the Imperium to make new ships. Each ship lost to the Imperium is a devastating blow, they're millenia old and take a long time to replace.

T'au are easy to deceive...look at the latest codices and they follow a trend of failure.

Nids may come back if they don't loose ALL of their Hive ships.
The solution to this would be to ignore anything except the 'capital ships', as I doubt the smaller ones can mutate into something else and have not the ability
to reproduce ships.
The Necrons with superior tech could pull this off. A piece of necron tech was able to withstand whole Imperial sector fleets alone.
Necrons aren't using the warp to move in space, the nids 'shadow in the warp' does not hamper them. IMO the undead in space got the speed, the shields and the weapons to beat bugs in space.

Most Tyranid ships can calve and also expand in size when they take on biomatter, so it's not a huge effort for remnants of a Hive Fleet to attack an agri world and get the biomass needed to grow to a good size again. This is mentioned in the 3rd edition codex. Some hive ships get incredibly big too - since they can expand in size when they take on biomass, some hive ships dwarf Imperial battleships.

1hadhq wrote:T'au are easy to deceive...look at the latest codices and they follow a trend of failure.

Nids may come back if they don't loose ALL of their Hive ships.
The solution to this would be to ignore anything except the 'capital ships', as I doubt the smaller ones can mutate into something else and have not the ability
to reproduce ships.
The Necrons with superior tech could pull this off. A piece of necron tech was able to withstand whole Imperial sector fleets alone.
Necrons aren't using the warp to move in space, the nids 'shadow in the warp' does not hamper them. IMO the undead in space got the speed, the shields and the weapons to beat bugs in space.

Yes, but they tend to avoid each other because they know they're the baddest mutherf***ers in the galaxy. We mess with each other when there's easier prey.

The tendril of Leviathan that attacked the Ork world of Ghorala had no Hive Ships left at all. The few wounded ships that made it into orbit past the Ork minefields and space-born fleets fired their Mycetic Spores down to the planet, then died.

Over the next few months, the Tyranids crushed the Orks that followed them down to the surface, consumed the planet and grew new Hive Fleet from the biomass. Leviathan went from literally being reduced to a planetary Tyranid infestation to be being a space-prowling monster again in less than a year.

The Tyranids have no problems with creating new ships, nor with growing new forces on the surface of a world if they have to.

Xyptc wrote:The tendril of Leviathan that attacked the Ork world of Ghorala had no Hive Ships left at all. The few wounded ships that made it into orbit past the Ork minefields and space-born fleets fired their Mycetic Spores down to the planet, then died.

Over the next few months, the Tyranids crushed the Orks that followed them down to the surface, consumed the planet and grew new Hive Fleet from the biomass. Leviathan went from literally being reduced to a planetary Tyranid infestation to be being a space-prowling monster again in less than a year.

The Tyranids have no problems with creating new ships, nor with growing new forces on the surface of a world if they have to.

soooo....all your biomass are belong to us?

wat the tyranids need to do is eat half of each ork and then come back a year or 2 later and repeat the process, that would give themj a steady supply of biomass
and on another note: 100th post

Xyptc wrote:The tendril of Leviathan that attacked the Ork world of Ghorala had no Hive Ships left at all. The few wounded ships that made it into orbit past the Ork minefields and space-born fleets fired their Mycetic Spores down to the planet, then died.

Over the next few months, the Tyranids crushed the Orks that followed them down to the surface, consumed the planet and grew new Hive Fleet from the biomass. Leviathan went from literally being reduced to a planetary Tyranid infestation to be being a space-prowling monster again in less than a year.

The Tyranids have no problems with creating new ships, nor with growing new forces on the surface of a world if they have to.

Source?

I would say the Orks could even out last the nids. If planets or civilizations fall to tyranids Orks will just come in and settle on the planet. Soon, it would become very difficult for tyranids to take each planet that they control and with the lack of enemies (other than themselves) many orks would be driven to fight the tyranid fleet.

It terms of getting to the Emperor first? Chaos probably cares more about that than any other army and could likely achieve it as the Imperium starts to crumble and CSM can remain strong due to their dedication to Chaos.

Samus_aran115 wrote:

Xyptc wrote:The tendril of Leviathan that attacked the Ork world of Ghorala had no Hive Ships left at all. The few wounded ships that made it into orbit past the Ork minefields and space-born fleets fired their Mycetic Spores down to the planet, then died.

Over the next few months, the Tyranids crushed the Orks that followed them down to the surface, consumed the planet and grew new Hive Fleet from the biomass. Leviathan went from literally being reduced to a planetary Tyranid infestation to be being a space-prowling monster again in less than a year.

The Tyranids have no problems with creating new ships, nor with growing new forces on the surface of a world if they have to.

Source?

Tyranid Codex (5th Ed), pages 30 and 31. It documents in full a tendril of Leviathan making its way into the Octarius sector, getting pounded by Ork spacial defences, staggering on to an Ork-populated world (Ghorala) before being destroyed. The Tyranids that made planetfall out-thought (and then out-fought) the Orks, before using the planet as a birthing ground for new Hive Ships. They then proceeded on to join the main assault on the Octarius sector.

This isn't the first documented instance of this either - the entire point of the Forge World Anphellion story is that captive Tyranids (mostly various forms of 'gaunt) were able to give rise to a complete infestation featuring everything from Genestealers to Hierophants.

This tells us too things - the Tyranids are incredibly difficult to keep down, and (more subtly) it should be causing us to ask just what the hell the Tyranids are doing with the majority of the biomass they strip from a world if it only took a single world to regenerate a good sized tendril of Leviathan. Are they taking it somewhere unseen? Are they growing far more Tyranids than we realise and sending them back out into the stellar void? We don't know - it's not something GW have really addressed since the Magos Biologis articles that were in White Dwarf during 3rd Edition (and even then they only highlighted the "missing mass", rather than offering any explanations).

I like that. More unknown alien horror stories.

djdutton wrote:I would say the Orks could even out last the nids. If planets or civilizations fall to tyranids Orks will just come in and settle on the planet. Soon, it would become very difficult for tyranids to take each planet that they control and with the lack of enemies (other than themselves) many orks would be driven to fight the tyranid fleet.

It terms of getting to the Emperor first? Chaos probably cares more about that than any other army and could likely achieve it as the Imperium starts to crumble and CSM can remain strong due to their dedication to Chaos.

A planet properly stripped by the Tyranids has no atmosphere, no liquid, few useful minerals, a significantly reduced core temperature etc. Orks are extremely resilient and wonderful survivors... but under those conditions even Orks are going to be hard-pressed to survive. They do after all need to breath (amongst other things). Sure, the Orks could "terraform" (Orkyform? Orkify? Orkarize?) a planet that the Tyranids have stripped... but why bother? There's nothing there worth using. It's just a place to sit.

The answer comes from the eldar book of the Rhana Dandra. It foretells of a galaxy spanning war between the forces of chaos (though of course this does include daemons) and the material universe. There is no winner, everything dies. If the forces of the material plane fought each other as well as chaos then they would surely lose, if they didn't then it would be a draw.

P.S none of this was made up. Anyone who has read the inquisition war or the eldar codex that thoroughly will agree with me (hopefully).

TRISKELION7 wrote:The answer comes from the eldar book of the Rhana Dandra. It foretells of a galaxy spanning war between the forces of chaos (though of course this does include daemons) and the material universe. There is no winner, everything dies. If the forces of the material plane fought each other as well as chaos then they would surely lose, if they didn't then it would be a draw.

P.S none of this was made up. Anyone who has read the inquisition war or the eldar codex that thoroughly will agree with me (hopefully).

But isnt the Rhana Dandra just a part of Eldar mythology thats the equivalent to our Rapture or Apocalypse, I realise the Eldar are great seers but its possible the universe wont end the way they imagine.

The Eldars' powers of prognostication are greatly overexaggerated.
Even humans are better. The Emperor's Tarot is stupidly accurate.

I would have to say ALOT of Tyranid biomass goes to the indescribably large Tyranid fleet that these others have been scouting for. Otherwise the huge fleet would get there with outdated tyranid organisms and that would be pointless for them.

Ok guys (and girls) sorry but i have to say this:

In the chaos deamons Fluff it says that EVERYTHING is part of Tzeentch's plans, this boils down to hes not ever going to let the fighting end because there will be no more sceming for him, everything is under his control and this is a GW sneaky way of saying there will be no last man standing, the fight will go on for eternity

Look at the question. Now at my post. Now back to the question. Sadly, this question isn't 'Who WILL be the last race standing?' but 'Who WOULD be the last race standing?'

The more you know.

Thats the point there cannot possibly be a last race standing, regardless of whether we are talking in "wills" or "woulds" it just cant happen.

I view your comment and feel very annoyed by your voiced opinion. But you can keep it.

Sorry its just the way my head works, id take it back i still stand by it

NeedsMoreDakka wrote:But that same thinking is what makes the Orks such a threat! They will just keep on fighting because its what they love to do.

Im not really familiar with Imperium lore but if they can nuke planets like that then why the hell havnt they done it already?

They have at Kreig, they bombed the and people still live on it.

Blood Raven 5th Company wrote:

NeedsMoreDakka wrote:But that same thinking is what makes the Orks such a threat! They will just keep on fighting because its what they love to do.

Im not really familiar with Imperium lore but if they can nuke planets like that then why the hell havnt they done it already?

They have at Kreig, they bombed the and people still live on it.

Nukes? Pah. Try Exterminatus

i like to think vortex missles are nukes i know they arent, but still...hey that gives me an idear....1:35 scale soviet nuke truck (dont know correct name) for apoc

1hadhq wrote:T'au are easy to deceive...look at the latest codices and they follow a trend of failure.

Tau are naive, no doubt about it, but their failures just mean they're due for a large amount of pro-fluff whenever they get a new 'dex. I'd like to see GW emphasize their ability to rapidly change and evolve to combat a threat, a la the splinter fleet mentioned in the 5th edition Tyranid 'dex. But overall they just need a major fleshing out as a "major" race, beyond anything else they just need more background

1) Deathstrikes are the nukes of 40. Soviet vehicles would be fine as chimera-chassis replacement IMO.
2) vortex missiles are superior to nukes. There is no fallout afterwards, just a clean untainted gameingtable surface...

@Retribution:

The Tau got a place in 40k as minor new rising empire and GW put them in the BRB not in the first place of new xenos empires. ( 2nd place after draxians? at page 119 ).

Gw can either keep them a small newbie faction ( which I think is most likely ) or:

- move the timeline to make Tau a major power in 40k ( unlikely in 5th ed as it seems to stop at M41 generally ).
- have the nids consume them ( didn't happen yet, so there safe until the next nid codex comes )
- use the chance of a xenos alliance and combine Tau and other new empires ( unlikely this edition if GW keeps updating everything first and lacks the time to add )
- go deus ex machina and do a time-jump, the Tau's puppeteers saving the Empire with another warpstorm but Tau don't get more fluff/new codex until 6th ed.

Would assume:

- Tau have nids on their heels.
- Tau need to get over their 'manifest destiny' nonsense and see the truth of eternal war.
- Tau either end in a civil war ( Farsight vs etherals ) or reunite.
- Tau finally accept there are only 2 factions which may consider the existance of Tau tolerable: Eldar, because they find them cute. Humans, because they find them
a practicable bait to keep the nids and orks busy..
- Tau learn to get off their "we know better" attitude and ask their neighbours if those undead or spikey creatures are trustworthy before any attempt at friendship
with evil is made. Sooner or later to fail at identifiying threats will get them killed.
- one of the Tau leaders is sniped by catachans, thus 1 wellknown character may be already dead. chance to redo HQ.

Possible fate from this point of 5th ed ( BRB, expansions, codices):

- Tau gain some xenos allies which seek protection from nids.
- Tau lack a nose but still get their virtual noses bloodied. Next codex counters the fluff of Tau empire codex or levels after 5th ed countered it already.
- Tau are saved from squatting by multiple existant plastic kits.
- the Tau fanbase is lucky and the catachans sniped the space pope. without him, Tau gain a new course where the fire caste equals the etherals in power.
- as GW drove themselves into a corner with 5th ed = endtimes, Tau are restricted to local importance in this ed.
- with the warrior caste gaining power, focus is on the military and great wars are fought. The concept of Honor leads to many temporary alliances.
- Tau join the other 'complete' races ( IE those with more than warriors, space elfs , space humans,...) against common threats like nids, necrons and orks.
- GW adds some xenos and a flying transport to their codex.

And still the last to stand will be a lonely guardsmen, forgotten in all the fighting and the galaxy drifts silently uncaring for his pleas to answers his call :
"hello? anyone out there?"....

but then GW pushes the Reset-button and tells us : anything we've told you was a lie. and 6th ed ignores the endtimes theme completly.

I like the idea of the fire caste becoming a political rival rather than utterly subservient, much like a praetorian guard. I don't see it happening with the current Ethereal fluff being "no-one can disobey them when they're actually around, period", however

Tau have a course set by 2 codices, so they are still flexible enough to add or alter the course if GW wills it.
What I am trying to say is, less successful models ( space pope ) may get redone or die to advance the story.
It can't stay at a split fire caste ( shadowsun/farsight ), so reuniting the fire caste and splitting the etherals after the death of space pope aun va would advance the story without 4th , 5th or whatever expansion spheres, wich add not much at all. Tau began as small 1 system faction, expanded in the second dex and IMO
need another theme than more expansions in their 3rd dex. To restrict the power of the etherals would provide that.
Tau need something outside bluegrey-space-ants if GW adds more allies. Let these etherals keep a veto and influence the Tau, but generally a empire would consist
of more than pure Tau sept worlds and these non-Tau members may not follow the etherals as unquestioning as Tau do.
Spiritual leaders are all good and fine, but Tau have already Kroot and vespids and any expansion may add more races to the military arm of the empire.
I'd pull the etherals back to a role of advisors and hand the command over to the fire caste.
( in game terms: etherals = fluff, advisors / HQ option. Fire caste = HQ, maybe other xenos HQ's too . )

If the focus goes to fire caste, concepts like Honor and military needs could save the Tau from a fate of a race fallen to false friends.
Remember the ones giving a party to necrons and offering Tau to dark eldar were etherals....
Soldiers act upon proven data, thus:
- robots = bad
- space bugs = bad
- spikey space elfs = bad
- angry Gue'la = be careful,but also chances are high for having a common enemy. Shared goals = temporary ally.
- orks = bad
- space elfs = did they outsmart us?
- other spikey things = according to elfs and Gue'la = very bad. advice:Take no risk, rated = bad.

Tau may survive for some time if they take realism over blind faith in manifest destiny.
They may not have a chance to be last race standing as empires tend to split and having multiple races increase the chance of this.

yes, if the Tau leave their current objective behind, they will last MUCH longer.

The Tau have been bloodied by just about every "big bad" race 40k has to offer, they tried talking to orks and got beat up, they tried talking to crons and got beat up, they've been picked on by the Deldar...who's left for them to try and parley with...Chaos followers maybe? I imagine by the time we get a 5th ed. 'dex they should have a pretty good outline for who not to talk to

yes I hope they do, as of now though I do not like the way they think. They are brand new to the galaxy and think they can fix everything without knowing anything about it. Hence all the mistakes. You should be correct though (save GW throwing us a curve ball), the Tau should understand by the time their new codex comes out who to trust. Wich is nobody at all

The Tau think they wiped Chaos out. There's a little piece of fluff somewhere about how the Tau think they killed off the Cult of Slaanesh, thinking it some small localized thing.

Everyone seems frown upon the tau's piecful approach, but it works very well on imperium worlds in the fluff. If you can conquer a world without a shot fired, then you have saved alot of energy and resources.